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Tye_Informer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The Lightning also doesn't make a Snap Shot, and since you can never opt to take one the FAQ still says no.

No, that part of the FAQ is referring to weapons. If you are willing to stipulate that LotS Lightning does not automatically hit, then we can move on to the discussion of whether the FAQ applies because Lightning is a weapon.

It's referring to attacks.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

I bolded it for you.

So, do you stipulate that LotS Lightning does, in fact, roll to hit?

No, as I've shown it does not.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tye_Informer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is it using the model's Ballistic Skill or Weapon Skill as defined on page 13 or 24 respectively?

They are not using their own WS, they are hitting on a 3+, regardless of their own and/or their opponents WS.

It's still defined as a to-hit roll, and it's creating a special allowance - it even mentions the WS comparison.

Plus, if you're leaning towards "It's a to-hit roll!" it's now definitely owned by Imotekh and pretty much indisputably an attack... and guess what falls under the FAQ?

This looked like you (rigeld2) were saying that a special allowance phrase, like Space Wolves' Wolf Tooth Necklace, saying that they "hit on a 3+" was a to-hit roll. I took to be agreement from you that a set value, like 3+ or 6, cold still be a to-hit roll, even if it does not use your BS or WS value to determine the roll.

rigeld2 wrote:

So, do you stipulate that LotS Lightning does, in fact, roll to hit?

No, as I've shown it does not.

I must have missed how you (or anyone in this long thread) has shown that Lightning is automatically hitting. Please show me how a rule that says "hits on a 3+" and "on a roll of 6, the unit is hit" are not to-hit rolls.

Tye_Informer wrote:
This looked like you (rigeld2) were saying that a special allowance phrase, like Space Wolves' Wolf Tooth Necklace, saying that they "hit on a 3+" was a to-hit roll. I took to be agreement from you that a set value, like 3+ or 6, cold still be a to-hit roll, even if it does not use your BS or WS value to determine the roll.

The WTN is nothing like the LotS lightning rule.
The WTN goes out of it's way to say that you hit on a 3+ even when comparing. Meaning that it's a modification on the normal to-hit rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

So, do you stipulate that LotS Lightning does, in fact, roll to hit?

No, as I've shown it does not.

I must have missed how you (or anyone in this long thread) has shown that Lightning is automatically hitting. Please show me how a rule that says "hits on a 3+" and "on a roll of 6, the unit is hit" are not to-hit rolls.

I never said it automatically hits. The WTN you keep referencing modifies the to-hit requirement. Nothing in the LotS rules even implies that's what it's doing.

Hits can be generated by more than just a "to-hit" roll.
For example, a Nova psyker power generates hits on all units in range. Are you next going to assert that the Psychic test to manifest a Nova is a to-hit roll?
Or that a failed DtW is a to-hit roll - after all, hits were generated on anything other than a 6.

rigeld2 wrote:
I never said it automatically hits. The WTN you keep referencing modifies the to-hit requirement. Nothing in the LotS rules even implies that's what it's doing.

Hits can be generated by more than just a "to-hit" roll.
For example, a Nova psyker power generates hits on all units in range. Are you next going to assert that the Psychic test to manifest a Nova is a to-hit roll?
Or that a failed DtW is a to-hit roll - after all, hits were generated on anything other than a 6.

I don't know about the Nova psyker power, so can't answer that, but Dangerous Terrain rule does not say it hits, it says that the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result if it fails the test.

I am not sure what you are saying in regards to LotS and rolling to hit, does it roll to hit or does it hit automatically? I'm not creating a false dichotomy, it is one or the other. I am arguing that the phrase "on a roll of 6, the unit is hit" means the roll of 6 is a roll to hit.

The FAQ says "or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically", my argument is this section does not apply to LotS, because it does indeed roll to hit (and is not a weapon, but that is for another time, what I am trying to establish here is that Lighting from LotS does roll to hit and does not hit automatically).

So, does Lightning LotS roll to hit or does it hit automatically?

Tye_Informer wrote:
I am arguing that the phrase "on a roll of 6, the unit is hit" means the roll of 6 is a roll to hit.

Even if the ""on a roll of 6, the unit is hit" means the roll of 6 is a roll to hit" were true (Not arguing that currently). It is not fired as a snap shot and therefore can not hit Zooming flyers.

Tye_Informer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I never said it automatically hits. The WTN you keep referencing modifies the to-hit requirement. Nothing in the LotS rules even implies that's what it's doing.

Hits can be generated by more than just a "to-hit" roll.
For example, a Nova psyker power generates hits on all units in range. Are you next going to assert that the Psychic test to manifest a Nova is a to-hit roll?
Or that a failed DtW is a to-hit roll - after all, hits were generated on anything other than a 6.

I don't know about the Nova psyker power, so can't answer that, but Dangerous Terrain rule does not say it hits, it says that the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result if it fails the test.

I am not sure what you are saying in regards to LotS and rolling to hit, does it roll to hit or does it hit automatically? I'm not creating a false dichotomy, it is one or the other. I am arguing that the phrase "on a roll of 6, the unit is hit" means the roll of 6 is a roll to hit.

The FAQ says "or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically", my argument is this section does not apply to LotS, because it does indeed roll to hit (and is not a weapon, but that is for another time, what I am trying to establish here is that Lighting from LotS does roll to hit and does not hit automatically).

So, does Lightning LotS roll to hit or does it hit automatically?

My reading of the rules suggests that it does not roll to hit and that it hits automatically.

Before you say 'the FAQ references weapons and LotS isn't a weapon', that's already been covered, and it has been conclusively shown that FAQ answers can go beyond the scope of the initial question.

The first sentence of the answer is an unqualified statement 'only snap shots my hit zooming flyers and swooping FMCs'. The rest of the answer, starting with 'therefore' is just an illustration of that first statement. The only things allowed to bypass that statement are things with explicit permission to hit flyers, such as: skyfire and Vector Strike.

Tye_Informer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I never said it automatically hits. The WTN you keep referencing modifies the to-hit requirement. Nothing in the LotS rules even implies that's what it's doing.

Hits can be generated by more than just a "to-hit" roll.
For example, a Nova psyker power generates hits on all units in range. Are you next going to assert that the Psychic test to manifest a Nova is a to-hit roll?
Or that a failed DtW is a to-hit roll - after all, hits were generated on anything other than a 6.

I don't know about the Nova psyker power, so can't answer that, but Dangerous Terrain rule does not say it hits, it says that the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result if it fails the test.

I never said anything about Dangerous Terrain ... ?
And you should familiarize yourself with the rules before arguing.

A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units within the psychic power's maximum range, regardless of line of sight, being locked in combat, intervening models/terrain and so on.

By your assertion, psychic tests are to-hit rolls.

I am not sure what you are saying in regards to LotS and rolling to hit, does it roll to hit or does it hit automatically? I'm not creating a false dichotomy, it is one or the other. I am arguing that the phrase "on a roll of 6, the unit is hit" means the roll of 6 is a roll to hit.

It is not one or the other.
Things can cause hits pending a die roll while not being to-hit rolls.

The FAQ says "or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically", my argument is this section does not apply to LotS, because it does indeed roll to hit (and is not a weapon, but that is for another time, what I am trying to establish here is that Lighting from LotS does roll to hit and does not hit automatically).

Did you miss the part I bolded? Remember how FAQ answers aren't always limited by the question?

So, does Lightning LotS roll to hit or does it hit automatically?

Neither.

rigeld2 wrote:

I never said anything about Dangerous Terrain ... ?
And you should familiarize yourself with the rules before arguing.

Sorry, misunderstood the DtW to be Dangerous Terrain. If you meant Deny the Witch, I don't see how that is relevant either. It's not an attempt at hitting anything. Could be that I don't understand the acronyms at all.

rigeld2 wrote:

Did you miss the part I bolded? Remember how FAQ answers aren't always limited by the question?

The part you bolded had nothing to do with Lighting hitting automatically or rolling to hit, which is the subject I am discussing at the moment. Have to get past step 1 to even know what step 2 is.

rigeld2 wrote:

So, does Lightning LotS roll to hit or does it hit automatically?

Neither.

So, you are willing to stipulate that the FAQ part talking about "hitting automatically" does not apply?

The roll of a six is a trigger not a bs roll. Not using BS cant fire snap shot cant hit a flyer. discussion DONE, for game pourposes only., as we all know real airplanes are hit by lightning a few times a year. In our games never.

Really 26 pages.?

Tye_Informer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

I never said anything about Dangerous Terrain ... ?
And you should familiarize yourself with the rules before arguing.

Sorry, misunderstood the DtW to be Dangerous Terrain. If you meant Deny the Witch, I don't see how that is relevant either. It's not an attempt at hitting anything. Could be that I don't understand the acronyms at all.

It's a roll that - if failed - causes hits. You're asserting that any roll that generates hits must be a to-hit roll. Remember this post?

LotS doesn't say "1 in 6 chance", it says "on a roll of 6 the unit is hit". I have read several codex entries talking about "hit on a 3+" (mostly in terms of WS in close combat) and nobody argues that the 3+ roll is not a "roll to hit", so why would the "on a roll of 6 the unit is hit" not be a roll to hit?

Why would "On a successful Psyker test (and subsequent failure of DtW all units in range are hit." not be a roll to hit? (according to you)

rigeld2 wrote:

Did you miss the part I bolded? Remember how FAQ answers aren't always limited by the question?

The part you bolded had nothing to do with Lighting hitting automatically or rolling to hit, which is the subject I am discussing at the moment. Have to get past step 1 to even know what step 2 is.

Oh, so you're ignoring the answer. That's cool.

rigeld2 wrote:

So, does Lightning LotS roll to hit or does it hit automatically?

Neither.

So, you are willing to stipulate that the FAQ part talking about "hitting automatically" does not apply?

You mean "or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically" ? Sure. Not that it matters.


It seems like you're arguing things that have already been addressed in the thread.

Lungpickle wrote:
The roll of a six is a trigger not a bs roll. Not using BS cant fire snap shot cant hit a flyer. discussion DONE, for game pourposes only., as we all know real airplanes are hit by lightning a few times a year. In our games never.

My point exactly, the roll of a 6 is the trigger for a mission-wide rule that is in effect due to a particular Warlord chosen by the Necrons. This mission-wide rule is in effect, whether he is on the battlefield at all and hits every un-engaged enemy unit on a roll of 6. I have not seen anything that says this mission-wide rule does not effect flyers. The only thing that seems to get all of us stuck is a FAQ, so I'm attempting to analyze the FAQ from start to finish. We seem to have gotten stuck on the first sentence, which is the question that was asked.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

I will summarize my questions:

1) Does the question apply? If LotS Lightning does roll to hit, then the question is not relevant to LotS Lightning because the question is "How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures?"
and
2) Is LotS a weapon? If LotS is not a weapon, then the question is not relevant to LotS because the question is about weapons.

If either of the 2 above questions are No, then LotS does hit flyers. However, if we assume that the question does apply or we decide that no matter what the question was, the answer could apply, then we go on:
3) Can LotS be snap shot? (I will stipulate the answer to this is No. I only include it for completeness) If LotS can be snap shot, then the roll of a 6 normally and the roll of 6 snap shot would be the same and the answer would not apply because it is a Snap Shot. (Again, I only include this for completeness) If this answer is Yes, then stop here, no further questions matter.

4) Is LotS an attack? If LotS is not an attack, then the answer is not relevant because the answer is specifically about attacks. If the answer here is No, then stop here, you have your answer. In this case LotS Lightning affects flyers.

5) Does LotS use a Blast marker, template, or create a line of effect? (I'm hoping most will stipulate this to be No, but I include it for completeness). If LotS does use a Blast marker, template, or create a line of effect (and we have decided the question applies or does not matter) then the answer applies and LotS cannot hit flyers. (Again, I hope everyone agrees that LotS is not a Blast marker, template or line of effect. Just including for completeness)

6) Is LotS an "area of effect"? If LotS does meet the definition of "Area of Effect" from the BRB, then the answer applies and LotS Lightning cannot affect flyers. If the answer here is Yes, stop here, you have your answer.

7) Does LotS not roll to hit? This question again, (see why I keep looking for an answer to this, it's important.) If Lots does not roll to hit, and is an attack, and is from a weapon (probably relevant) then the answer is relevant, continue to 8)

8) Does LotS target units? If LotS is not actually targeting units, then the FAQ restriction on targeting them is not applicable. If LotS does not target, simply affects units the stop here, LotS Lightning does affect Flyers.

9) Is the portion of the answer "This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas." relevant? (I hope everyone agrees that LotS Lightning is not a death ray, Deathstrike missle, or psychic power that follows the rules for maelstroms, beams, or novas. I just include it for completeness). If LotS lightning is one of these things then stop here, LotS Lightning does not affect Flyers.

If you get to this point (how, but why not), then LotS does hit Flyers.

Tye_Informer wrote:
3) Can LotS be snap shot? (I will stipulate the answer to this is No. I only include it for completeness) If LotS can be snap shot, then the roll of a 6 normally and the roll of 6 snap shot would be the same and the answer would not apply because it is a Snap Shot. (Again, I only include this for completeness) If this answer is Yes, then stop here, no further questions matter.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
Everything after that is some results of that sentence. Not all of them.

LotS cannot be Snap Shot and therefore cannot hit Flyers.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tye_Informer wrote:
3) Can LotS be snap shot? (I will stipulate the answer to this is No. I only include it for completeness) If LotS can be snap shot, then the roll of a 6 normally and the roll of 6 snap shot would be the same and the answer would not apply because it is a Snap Shot. (Again, I only include this for completeness) If this answer is Yes, then stop here, no further questions matter.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
Everything after that is some results of that sentence. Not all of them.

LotS cannot be Snap Shot and therefore cannot hit Flyers.

This, it really is this simple.

As above. Nothing else really matters - and after 26 pages not a single argument has come close on this.

There is one simple paragraph in the BRB that tells me Imotekh's lightning can hit fliers....

Page 7, right column, last paragraph:

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes presedence.

And until the rules for Imotekh's lightning is FAQed to say otherwise, the rules in the codex take precedence.

And boom goes the dynamite.

 Zathras wrote:
There is one simple paragraph in the BRB that tells me Imotekh's lightning can hit fliers....

Page 7, right column, last paragraph:

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes presedence.

And until the rules for Imotekh's lightning is FAQed to say otherwise, the rules in the codex take precedence.

I disagree, there is no conflict.

As both sides can clearly point out they're right.

 Zathras wrote:
There is one simple paragraph in the BRB that tells me Imotekh's lightning can hit fliers....

Page 7, right column, last paragraph:

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes presedence.

And until the rules for Imotekh's lightning is FAQed to say otherwise, the rules in the codex take precedence.

Read that again, specifically the underlined.

You're going to say, with a straight face, that the subject of a 26 page thread isn't generating conflict?

That's a new low, even for YMDC.

Hahahahahaha!

I'm just amazed we're on page 26 without this needing to be locked for people being tools.
Good Job for everyone not being douche bags and getting the thread locked.
Only 24 more pages to go until we hit that earlier predicted 50 page thread.

 Monster Rain wrote:

You're going to say, with a straight face, that the subject of a 26 page thread isn't generating conflict?

That's a new low, even for YMDC.

I do hope that you realize "conflict" does not mean what you are insinuating it means.

Conflict means a conflict between the Codex and the BRB.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

You're going to say, with a straight face, that the subject of a 26 page thread isn't generating conflict?

That's a new low, even for YMDC.

I do hope that you realize "conflict" does not mean what you are insinuating it means.

Conflict means a conflict between the Codex and the BRB.

Which there is between the shooting rules in the BRB and Imotekh's lightning regarding fliers. Therefore the codex rules take precedence over the BRB.

There is not a conflict.

Only snap shots can hit Zooming Flyers.

LoTS does not have a to hit roll, so it can not snap shot. (LoTS does not have anything to do with the shooting rules in the BRB as it is not a shooting attack from Imotekh so no conflict there).

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is not a conflict.

Only snap shots can hit Zooming Flyers.

LoTS does not have a to hit roll, so it can not snap shot. (LoTS does not have anything to do with the shooting rules in the BRB as it is not a shooting attack from Imotekh so no conflict there).

No conflict eh?

Weapons use one method to attack zooming fliers (Snap shots).

LoTS uses a different method to attack zooming fliers (roll a 6 on a D6).

The two methods are not the same and therefore are in conflict with each other.

When this happens the method used by the codex takes precedence.

This discussion has already been had in this thread. LotS is a basic rule (it hits all enemy models). Hard to Hit is an advanced rule (it applies to specific model types). Advanced rules trump basic rules.

Yep, we're back at page 2 or 3 now - love it when people drop in not having read the preceding, thoroughly debunked arguments, and just rehash them. Shows zero respect.

 Zathras wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is not a conflict.

Only snap shots can hit Zooming Flyers.

LoTS does not have a to hit roll, so it can not snap shot. (LoTS does not have anything to do with the shooting rules in the BRB as it is not a shooting attack from Imotekh so no conflict there).

No conflict eh?

Weapons use one method to attack zooming fliers (Snap shots).

LoTS uses a different method to attack zooming fliers (roll a 6 on a D6).

The two methods are not the same and therefore are in conflict with each other.

When this happens the method used by the codex takes precedence.

You are misunderstanding what conflict means.

But maybe you missed what the FAQ says, which trumps the codex and the BRB.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.


"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers" Is LoTS a snap shot?

 undertow wrote:
This discussion has already been had in this thread. LotS is a basic rule (it hits all enemy models). Hard to Hit is an advanced rule (it applies to specific model types). Advanced rules trump basic rules.

So, if LoTS is a basic rule, show me where it is in the BRB.

LoTS is also an advanced rule, applying to just one model, in a codex. Therefore, according to the rule on page 7, it trumps the shooting rules in the BRB.

Only when there is a conflict

Specific beats general. Hitting every model is not specific compared to Hard to HIt.

Again, youre back at page 2. try starting from there.