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There are a few models that are independent characters, but do not have the character subtype (such as Techmarines). Would they still get all the benefits of characters, our only LOS?

Happyjew wrote:
There are a few models that are independent characters, but do not have the character subtype (such as Techmarines). Would they still get all the benefits of characters, our only LOS?

To have the independent character rule you must also be a character.

Also the FAQ's tell you to look to the reference section of the BRB for current unit type etc.

40k-noob wrote:
Also the FAQ's tell you to look to the reference section of the BRB for current unit type etc.

And? According to the appendix, Techmarines are just Infantry.

Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Also the FAQ's tell you to look to the reference section of the BRB for current unit type etc.

And? According to the appendix, Techmarines are just Infantry.

And according to at least the BT codex, he is a character with the IC rule.

Having the IC rule automatically makes you a character.

Not all characters are 'independant'; but all 'independants' are characters.

 Neorealist wrote:
Not all characters are 'independant'; but all 'independants' are characters.

There is a Tau (Forgeworld) HQ choice that is 'Unique' but not an IC and cant't join units.

But I guess that is moot anyway, because you can only LOS onto models in your own unit. Right?

Correct, and onlyt he closest model to you.

There are lots of unique non IC characters. BA have 3, GK one or two, etc.

Yup, being a character in that instance would only grant them a precision attack on a roll of 6; they wouldn't be able to benefit from the LOS rules as they are unable to join a squad.

Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Also the FAQ's tell you to look to the reference section of the BRB for current unit type etc.

And? According to the appendix, Techmarines are just Infantry.

And you would be correct. A techmarine is no longer an IC.

Not my fault GW says to look at the reference section for an up to date list of unit types.

SM FAQ v1.1 wrote:
AMENDMENTS
Note that this is an older Codex, written for a previous edition
of the rules. You will therefore need to consult the Reference
section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for an up to date list
Unit Types and Vehicle Hull Points. You’ll also find that some
of the weapons in this Codex are written out longhand, rather
than using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook. Don’t worry – these are functionally identical, unless
noted otherwise in this document.

40k-noob wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Also the FAQ's tell you to look to the reference section of the BRB for current unit type etc.

And? According to the appendix, Techmarines are just Infantry.

And you would be correct. A techmarine is no longer an IC.

Not my fault GW says to look at the reference section for an up to date list of unit types.

SM FAQ v1.1 wrote:
AMENDMENTS
Note that this is an older Codex, written for a previous edition
of the rules. You will therefore need to consult the Reference
section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for an up to date list
Unit Types and Vehicle Hull Points. You’ll also find that some
of the weapons in this Codex are written out longhand, rather
than using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook. Don’t worry – these are functionally identical, unless
noted otherwise in this document.

However, the BRB makes no notes on Independent characters.

Fragile wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Also the FAQ's tell you to look to the reference section of the BRB for current unit type etc.

And? According to the appendix, Techmarines are just Infantry.

And you would be correct. A techmarine is no longer an IC.

Not my fault GW says to look at the reference section for an up to date list of unit types.

SM FAQ v1.1 wrote:
AMENDMENTS
Note that this is an older Codex, written for a previous edition
of the rules. You will therefore need to consult the Reference
section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for an up to date list
Unit Types and Vehicle Hull Points. You’ll also find that some
of the weapons in this Codex are written out longhand, rather
than using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook. Don’t worry – these are functionally identical, unless
noted otherwise in this document.

However, the BRB makes no notes on Independent characters.

You are right.

IC is not a unit type but a Special Rule. My mistake.
I should have said that a Techmarine is not a CHARACTER.

I know that some have said that being an IC = being a Character. But I am having trouble finding that in the rule book.
Does anyone have a page or rule that states that?

40k-noob wrote:
I know that some have said that being an IC = being a Character. But I am having trouble finding that in the rule book.
Does anyone have a page or rule that states that?

Page 39, under the Independent Character rule, 6th paragraph, "While An Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

 ToBeWilly wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I know that some have said that being an IC = being a Character. But I am having trouble finding that in the rule book.
Does anyone have a page or rule that states that?

Page 39, under the Independent Character rule, 6th paragraph, "While An Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So that says he is only a Character when joined to a unit?

I guess it really doesn't matter much when on its own.

The only reason I can think of as to why a Tehmarine is not a character would be due to the fact that the TFC comes with a Techmarine as a gunner and does not have the IC rule until the Cannon is destroyed.

40k-noob wrote:

 ToBeWilly wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I know that some have said that being an IC = being a Character. But I am having trouble finding that in the rule book.
Does anyone have a page or rule that states that?

Page 39, under the Independent Character rule, 6th paragraph, "While An Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So that says he is only a Character when joined to a unit?

I guess it really doesn't matter much when on its own.

No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

As was stated earlier, all IC's are characters but not all characters have the IC rule.

Also, even though it doesn't say the techmarine is a character in the back of the rulebook they do still have the rule (at least in the BT book) that is "Character: This unit is an independent character [more verbiage I don't remember off the top of my head]."

I looked in the FAQ's for relevant codices and saw no mention of techmarines losing this rule.

 Kevin949 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 ToBeWilly wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I know that some have said that being an IC = being a Character. But I am having trouble finding that in the rule book.
Does anyone have a page or rule that states that?

Page 39, under the Independent Character rule, 6th paragraph, "While An Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So that says he is only a Character when joined to a unit?

I guess it really doesn't matter much when on its own.

No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

As was stated earlier, all IC's are characters but not all characters have the IC rule.

Also, even though it doesn't say the techmarine is a character in the back of the rulebook they do still have the rule (at least in the BT book) that is "Character: This unit is an independent character [more verbiage I don't remember off the top of my head]."

I looked in the FAQ's for relevant codices and saw no mention of techmarines losing this rule.

Well I went back and look at my SM codex and on page 51 under IC it says to look at the "Characters" rules in the BRB.
So I guess that settles that for a Techmarine.

But what if a codex doesn't have such a rule?

 Kevin949 wrote:
No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

Some infantry have the Jump designation. Does this mean that all units designated as Jump are Infantry?

40k-noob wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 ToBeWilly wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I know that some have said that being an IC = being a Character. But I am having trouble finding that in the rule book.
Does anyone have a page or rule that states that?

Page 39, under the Independent Character rule, 6th paragraph, "While An Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So that says he is only a Character when joined to a unit?

I guess it really doesn't matter much when on its own.

No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

As was stated earlier, all IC's are characters but not all characters have the IC rule.

Also, even though it doesn't say the techmarine is a character in the back of the rulebook they do still have the rule (at least in the BT book) that is "Character: This unit is an independent character [more verbiage I don't remember off the top of my head]."

I looked in the FAQ's for relevant codices and saw no mention of techmarines losing this rule.

Well I went back and look at my SM codex and on page 51 under IC it says to look at the "Characters" rules in the BRB.
So I guess that settles that for a Techmarine.

But what if a codex doesn't have such a rule?

Doesn't have what rule? I mean, this is an unfortunate byproduct of fragmentation in GW's game since they can't update their codices fast enough, but I'm personally unaware of anything that has the actual IC rule but isn't a character. I know there are some things that "act as" having the IC rule but only when interacting with certain units. Such as, i believe, Hive tyrants and tyrant guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

Some infantry have the Jump designation. Does this mean that all units designated as Jump are Infantry?

Yes, they are, as noted in the rule book.

Techmarines have the IC rule. Per the appendix they are not characters. AFAIK there is nothing else, but I don't own all of hte codexes yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

Some infantry have the Jump designation. Does this mean that all units designated as Jump are Infantry?

Yes, they are, as noted in the rule book.

Good to know that Jump Monstrous Creatures are actually Infantry.

Kevin949 wrote:
Doesn't have what rule? I mean, this is an unfortunate byproduct of fragmentation in GW's game since they can't update their codices fast enough, but I'm personally unaware of anything that has the actual IC rule but isn't a character. I know there are some things that "act as" having the IC rule but only when interacting with certain units. Such as, i believe, Hive tyrants and tyrant guard.

I was just asking in case some of the older codexes don't have an "IC: see characters in the BRB" or something similar in them.

They all just might have such wording, but I don't have all the codexes so it may be a moot question.

Happyjew wrote:
Techmarines have the IC rule. Per the appendix they are not characters. AFAIK there is nothing else, but I don't own all of hte codexes yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

Some infantry have the Jump designation. Does this mean that all units designated as Jump are Infantry?

Yes, they are, as noted in the rule book.

Good to know that Jump Monstrous Creatures are actually Infantry.

Nice way to twist it, you know exactly what you were asking and what I was answering to. Anything with jump is it's BASE MODEL TYPE in addition to jump. Don't try that kind of stuff man.

As for the techmarine - if they have the IC rule they must follow all the same rules as characters. So either he is a character with the IC rule or he is not. Also if you look under "Independent Characters and ongoing effects" the last line says "If the character leaves the unit, both he and the unit continue to be affected by the effect, so you'll need to mark the character accordingly."

So if he's not listed as a character in the back of the book then he's not an a character and can't have IC. Again though, looking through the FAQ's and the like I've seen nothing that removes this from him/them.

Happyjew wrote:

Good to know that Jump Monstrous Creatures are actually Infantry.

Jump, Monstrous creatures are Jump and monstrous creatures. Not jump and infantry and monstrous creatures.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
No, if you look under the rules for characters it says "Some characters have the Independent Character special rule."

Some infantry have the Jump designation. Does this mean that all units designated as Jump are Infantry?

Yes, they are, as noted in the rule book.

Good to know that Jump Monstrous Creatures are actually Infantry.

Nice way to twist it, you know exactly what you were asking and what I was answering to. Anything with jump is it's BASE MODEL TYPE in addition to jump. Don't try that kind of stuff man.

As for the techmarine - if they have the IC rule they must follow all the same rules as characters. So either he is a character with the IC rule or he is not. Also if you look under "Independent Characters and ongoing effects" the last line says "If the character leaves the unit, both he and the unit continue to be affected by the effect, so you'll need to mark the character accordingly."

So if he's not listed as a character in the back of the book then he's not an a character and can't have IC. Again though, looking through the FAQ's and the like I've seen nothing that removes this from him/them.

Your claim is that since the rules state that some A have B then everything with B must be A. Obviously this doesn't work, or else my statement would be true, that Jump MC are Infantry since some Infantry have the Jump desgination.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Good to know that Jump Monstrous Creatures are actually Infantry.

Jump, Monstrous creatures are Jump and monstrous creatures. Not jump and infantry and monstrous creatures.

Yeah I know, I was making a point about the logic that "Some A have B therefore everything with B must be A".

No, my claim was ONLY for characters and the IC rule. Not "everything".

I asked in a different thread, though this one is more fitting...

In a command squad, are the standard bearers, apothecary or sergeant a character, if attached to a master of sanctity?

I'm thinking no, coz they're just initiates, with different names... But i could be wrong?

A number of models are listed under Space Marines instead of repeating information for each individual Codex. As such, the Apothecary and Sarge are characters, even though the model that is "upgraded" to be them are not. It is the same thing with a Painboy in a Nobz unit.

40k-noob wrote:

 ToBeWilly wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I know that some have said that being an IC = being a Character. But I am having trouble finding that in the rule book.
Does anyone have a page or rule that states that?

Page 39, under the Independent Character rule, 6th paragraph, "While An Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So that says he is only a Character when joined to a unit?

I guess it really doesn't matter much when on its own.

I pretty sure that is the clincher for determining if an IC is a character, and if the IC is by himself, he is still a unit, and therefore part of the unit, and therefore a character.

If someone is a character then when they are on their own they still get the benefits of being one. Precision shots and the like would still apply.