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I agree that a group of 5 lanceteks is a waste. It's better to have the cryptkes split through your troops. It's more cost effective and makes more sense.

In 5th, the AV 13 Wall army build was basically three to five units of 5 Warriors in GAs with a couple of Lance-teks attached to each.
Add to that a couple Stalkers, some Heavy Destroyers, and one or two Doomsday Arks (maybe Annihilation Barges, too, if you had the points and HS slots left over), and you had quite a force to be reckoned with.
... I'm not sure why people stopped playing this build in 6th, though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh wait, I know why:
NS Spam became the new OP-ness.

Do you guys think that Night Scythes should always be used as the primary dedicated transport, or is the ghost ark completely useless?

 skoffs wrote:
I thought they'd FAQ'd that so Trazyn's CC weapon's Empathic Obliterator doesn't wound on a 2+ if combined with Deathmarks?

But aside from that, I just want to remind everyone: Relentless is USELESS with Deathmarks (you do NOT want these guys in close combat).

They would effectively have assault 2 sniper rifles and wound still wound any marked targets on 2+, both in shooting and assault. Combined with Trazyn (whom, no, was never FAQed to not work with Deathmmarks), and a lord or two, they could be quite nasty in assault, particularly against their marked targets.

OH
also,
(very important)
every army should include 0 units of Flayed Ones.
There are better ways out there to waste points (and money), guys.

/sigh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sounddemon wrote:
Do you guys think that Night Scythes should always be used as the primary dedicated transport, or is the ghost ark completely useless?

They certainly aren't useless. Some of the better armies I've seen have employed one or two to support the ground anchor as well as some Night Scythes. Fennell, for instance, always uses one or two.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
I thought they'd FAQ'd that so Trazyn's CC weapon's Empathic Obliterator doesn't wound on a 2+ if combined with Deathmarks?

Trazyn (whom, no, was never FAQed to not work with Deathmmarks)

... are you trying to argue that the "Psionic Shockwave" portion of the Empathic Obliterator, after killing a model, will wound other similar models in the same unit on a roll of 2+ instead it's normal 4+, thanks to Hunters from Hyperspace?
As the entry in the codex states,
"To resolve the psionic shockwave, roll a D6 for every model in the combat (friendly and enemy) with the exact same name on their characteristic profile as the model slain by Trazyn that phase. If the score is 4 or more, that model suffers a wound (armour saves taken as normal)." - pg. 59
Therefore, it's just an ability going off. Despite the fact that the ability causes wounds, it can not benefit from Hunters from Hyperspace (which only affects shooting/combat to-wound rolls).

If, however, you are merely stating that the Empathic Obliterator itself wounds on a 2+, well, we have no problem.

Yes, just the normal attacks, not the follow up ability. Still, that makes a pretty big difference, as it's all about getting that initial wound with him.

 sounddemon wrote:
I agree that a group of 5 lanceteks is a waste. It's better to have the cryptkes split through your troops. It's more cost effective and makes more sense.

No, it is not.
The Lanceteks have a range of 36''. After one unit is destroyed they will easily find another target.
Moreover, the enemy will react accordingly, either moving some units out of range (but this is almost impossible) or shoot them. This will eventually disrupt his plans. Good for you.

 skoffs wrote:
In 5th, the AV 13 Wall army build was basically three to five units of 5 Warriors in GAs with a couple of Lance-teks attached to each.
Add to that a couple Stalkers, some Heavy Destroyers, and one or two Doomsday Arks (maybe Annihilation Barges, too, if you had the points and HS slots left over), and you had quite a force to be reckoned with.
... I'm not sure why people stopped playing this build in 6th, though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh wait, I know why:
NS Spam became the new OP-ness.

Still using it, kicking ass. I don't have a single flyer yet won 2 tournaments.

 sounddemon wrote:
I agree that a group of 5 lanceteks is a waste. It's better to have the cryptkes split through your troops. It's more cost effective and makes more sense.

Just like Dev squads are no good because you are better off spreading your heavy weapons out in Tac squads?

There are positives and negatives to both approaches but overkill from the court is not really relevant. You don’t spend a load of extra points and foc slots to avoid the (statistically improbable) chance that one lance would have been enough.

Also your better off with 4 lance-teks and one Chrono-tek than 5 lance-teks.

Necrons inherently do 2 things well: Shoot and catch bullets. Even IG's tanks need fear because our basic infantry gun can and will glance them to death (eventually).

Here's a little trick I found with the CCB.
First sweep over a target, preferably a vehicle.
Then pivot on the spot. And then shoot. And then charge.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Here's a little trick I found with the CCB.
First sweep over a target, preferably a vehicle.
Then pivot on the spot. And then shoot. And then charge.

You're a few months late

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Here's a little trick I found with the CCB.
First sweep over a target, preferably a vehicle.
Then pivot on the spot. And then shoot. And then charge.

You're a few months late

Aw, in that case

I suggest to keep this thread serious. If you already know a tactical gimmick, who cares.

Well, in going to get flamed for this one, but...

Szeras plus zandrekh and obyron. Take a 20 man squad and put obyron and szeras in then, upgrade the squad with szeras, i prefer toughness or strength upgrade.

Use warriors to jump around and destroy anything, tanks, infantry, whatever. T5 plus 4+ and reanimation makes them hard to get rid of, szeras gives then a high Str shot and defensive grenades, and obyron rocks face, maybe add a lord with mss and orb got more killy and better reanimation. If you think you will be assaulted give them counter attack, then with defense grenades, over watch, and counter attack its equal to you getting the charge.

S5 makes them solid in cc, plus furious charge from zandrekh and you've got a pretty solid assault unit. Drop them in your opponents zone rapid fie and kill something, preferably something with a template if he has them, then assault next turn. The turn you drop in you could take tank hunter to kill that tank that had the large blast, like a Lehman Russ.

Everyone i bring up szeras people flame me, but they just don't see his real genius.

I actually really like that idea. Szeras is a pretty underrated HQ, for 100 points he is a steal.

Ghostwalk mantle combined with adaptive tactics can be surprisingly good.

Let's stay serious here.

You assume Warriors to get the T upgrade...that's a 30% chance. Counter-attack requires you to roll a I test. With Necrons. Another 33% chance you rely on. You seem to have gotten his rules wrong, you can't choose the upgrade, you have to *roll* which one you'll end up with.

S5 does not make them solid in melee. They still got I2. They still got 1 basic attack. They still got a 4+ save.

You assume you'll never scatter too far although that's not really easy with a squad of ~25 models...you'll need a LOT of space to pull this off and deepstriking into the enemy deployment zone at start in order to shoot something is the best way to lose the game at turn 1. Even if you do get lucky and manage to deepstrike safely, you will end up getting shot to pieces as the rest of your army lags behind (literally, haha.).

Szeras is not a "steal" for 100 points. That's 100 points, guys, and that guy is a Destruction Cryptek that normally costs 45 points with 2 wounds and more attacks. Let him be ~70 points and he'd be cool. But 100 points? Female dog in heat, please.

Imo, to be viable Szeras should either:

a) be ~70 points

or

b) have his ability increase T / BS / I

Counter attack is a leadership test, not initiative. There is not a bad upgrade from szeras, i just prefer Str or toughness over bs5, and i am not relying on any one, you roll before you decide what to do with them, then you adjust to what they get.

T5 is not a must, just one of 3 solid outcomes.

Don't forget they szeras is also a destructek with three wounds and a 3+ save with defensive grenades and 4 attacks base and boosts a scoring unit. 100 points for an hq is hard to pull off these days, let alone for one that does what he does.

Coteaz and a selection of SM Librarians (or Rune Priests) would like a word. Great choices that are 100pts.

I would like to point out that 40 gauss shots may do a number on a vehicle, especially with tank hunter, but even so you can get the job done cheaper with 5 warriors and a stormtek coming out of a scythe. Gives you a bit more utility too as you now have something that can deal with fliers (as well as one of your own) and the ability to relocate reliably.

However 40 gauss shots won't do a number on infantry. 27 hits, 14 wounds...you killed between 4 and 5 MEQs and spent a ton of points to do so.

 sounddemon wrote:
I actually really like that idea. Szeras is a pretty underrated HQ, for 100 points he is a steal.

Ghostwalk mantle combined with adaptive tactics can be surprisingly good.

I don't think Szeras is terrible for the price. He's a decent HQ for the points. The trouble is that you only get 2 HQs, and in order to take him you have to give up so much.

 Dave-c wrote:
Counter attack is a leadership test, not initiative. There is not a bad upgrade from szeras, i just prefer Str or toughness over bs5, and i am not relying on any one, you roll before you decide what to do with them, then you adjust to what they get.

T5 is not a must, just one of 3 solid outcomes.

Don't forget they szeras is also a destructek with three wounds and a 3+ save with defensive grenades and 4 attacks base and boosts a scoring unit. 100 points for an hq is hard to pull off these days, let alone for one that does what he does.

^^ This. He only has 2 wounds, but I'm with you Dave. What Sig and others don't seem to realize is that in the type of unit your describing you really don't care which upgrade you get, as they all are good at that point.

The way I price him is like this:

45 Points Lancetek+Gaze
15 Points +1 Wound, +3 Attacks, +1 Save, and no "Overlord Tax", which is factored into each RC choice to some degree.

So you're paying 40 points for the upgrade, or 2 points per Warrior. Pretty reasonably priced. If he was 70 points as Sig suggests he would be completely broken. I maybe could see 90 or so, but 70 seems a bit absurd.

And as Dave already pointed out, CA is a Leadership test, which just happens to be one of Necrons best stats.

I use Szeras to reinforce my 20man overlord/ghostark supported block. As it's pretty much the only foot infantry on the field, aside from objective babysitters, that stat boost is really nice.

T5, good. Means even less of them die. Stacked with res orb and ark, its pretty unkillable.

BS5, good. 40 gauss shots, twin linked with stalkers will obliterate pretty much anything I point it at.

S5, good. Helps cover their biggest weakness, which is CC. Even at I2, str5 still hurts. Espeically when theres an overlord swinging away as well. Youre far more likely to even the odds on combat resolution and not break.

On a similar tangent about HQ's. How would you guys run Vargard Obyron? Do you know of any combos that work well with him or do you guys think he is a lost cause that isn't very viable?

 sounddemon wrote:
On a similar tangent about HQ's. How would you guys run Vargard Obyron? Do you know of any combos that work well with him or do you guys think he is a lost cause that isn't very viable?

Well, he has great qualities about him. The no scatter deep strike with zandrekh is great, move zandrekh forward in a vehicle, unit, ccb, etc, then ds to his position with something nasty, or something scoring, or whatever you are trying to do.

You have to be very careful what you throw at him, he has no invul and if you put him between a rock and a hard place he will not live long enough to hit back. It is not wise to let zandrekh get into combat until you are done moving the unit around with the ghostmantle. Well, he just shouldnt be in any combat at all, honestly.

I usually do obyron plus 20 warriors or obyron plus 10 lychguard in big games. You can hide obyron behind those 4++ shields since he doesnt have one for himself.

 Dave-c wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
On a similar tangent about HQ's. How would you guys run Vargard Obyron? Do you know of any combos that work well with him or do you guys think he is a lost cause that isn't very viable?

Well, he has great qualities about him. The no scatter deep strike with zandrekh is great, move zandrekh forward in a vehicle, unit, ccb, etc, then ds to his position with something nasty, or something scoring, or whatever you are trying to do.

You have to be very careful what you throw at him, he has no invul and if you put him between a rock and a hard place he will not live long enough to hit back. It is not wise to let zandrekh get into combat until you are done moving the unit around with the ghostmantle. Well, he just shouldnt be in any combat at all, honestly.

I usually do obyron plus 20 warriors or obyron plus 10 lychguard in big games. You can hide obyron behind those 4++ shields since he doesnt have one for himself.

Vargard is awesome in combat, what are you talking about? Sure, he'll get ripped up by AP 2 CC weapons but most of those strike at I1 anyway so he has a shot of surviving at least one round. The added attacks on misses against him is great too.

Yes, it would be best if he was accompanied by a squad of something that is equally good in CC, but he can do just as well in a CCB.

How does Cleaving Counterblow work if Obyron is in a unit?

 sounddemon wrote:
How does Cleaving Counterblow work if Obyron is in a unit?

Same as it does if he's solo.

The enemy attacks would be the same number whether he's in a unit or not, and the enemy is still attempting to strike him whether he's in a unit or not.

i'm under the notion that when an enemy assaults into obyron's group you would take the majority WS and toughness, if this is the case, how would you know what misses would add up towards cleaving counterblow?

 sounddemon wrote:
i'm under the notion that when an enemy assaults into obyron's group you would take the majority WS and toughness, if this is the case, how would you know what misses would add up towards cleaving counterblow?

Again, it doesn't matter. It only mattered in 5th because you "had" to allocate attacks against an IC. Now when you assault the unit you're attacking "everyone" which includes him, so essentially every attack is against him or could be counted as being against him. Or every miss, as it were.

Obviously this is different for challenges.

I disagree. When an enemy unit attacks another, they're directing blows at the unit as a whole (therefore majority WS/T applies). Obyron should only get his bonus strikes from cleaving counterblow when he is solo or in a challenge.