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 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
Personally I can't get enough of the Annihilation Barge, I ran 3 in 5th and love the thing and now in 6th its even better. Reliable anti-flyer, amazing anti-infantry and good anti-light tank the unit is bargain I can't see a time I won't field one.

My biggest issue atm is trying how to field a Necron Overlord, the CCB isn't as good as it used to be, though used wisely it can still be a great unit. I'd like to be able to use a Royal Court but I don't want to pay the Overlord tax since my go to HQ is the Destroyer Lord and was thinking whats the best use of a Footslogging Overlord.
In 1K5 games I have all my troops in Night Scythes (only 3 as taking any more in counter productive and lets face it, annoying for your opponent) and they only get out to claim objectives or some Rapid fire death. So what benefit or than a very expensive melee deterrent/ unit buff could a Overlord bring?

Well, I made similar experiences. The Annihilation Barges are amazing and very cheap for what they can achieve.
An Overlord in a CCB is more a liability than useful. However, he can work if the enemy fields shooty squads like Havocs or Devs. Then he could zoom around a flank to threaten them. But in my competitive 1750 pt list, there is no place for him.

How about the Dlord? He usually dies in challenges when the enemy can strike first and has an inv save, while the Dlord has none. That is a bit annoying.

How about the Dlord? He usually dies in challenges when the enemy can strike first and has an inv save, while the Dlord has none. That is a bit annoying.

MSS alone wins a lot of challenges. Then their is the fact that he's T6 (and can't be insta'd) and strikes before most weapons that are AP 2. I dunno, I've seen him take on just about anything out there. Sometimes he loses, but he wins more the he loses in my experience. I mean, there isn't a single CC character in the game that always wins...

T Arrow is good. I missed in 5th before PE re rolls 5 games in a row in a comp. I got unlucky but it is still worth it. Missing on 2's or 1's rerolled is much better now. My rule is never fire it if a cover save can stop it.

Overlord in CCB should not be rulled out. It moves a potential 30" in a turn. I don't take him as often but still great at alot of things. I have had whole armies fire at him. AV13 + a 4+ jink is a tough cookie to crack. I would hate one near my lines. Don't get him into assault to quick.

If the Surf lord was a chess peices it would be a queen.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

How about the Dlord? He usually dies in challenges when the enemy can strike first and has an inv save, while the Dlord has none. That is a bit annoying.

MSS alone wins a lot of challenges. Then their is the fact that he's T6 (and can't be insta'd) and strikes before most weapons that are AP 2. I dunno, I've seen him take on just about anything out there. Sometimes he loses, but he wins more the he loses in my experience. I mean, there isn't a single CC character in the game that always wins...

He can suffer ID, but not due to double toughness as strength unless he suffers from something that reduces his T, like a Rad Grenade + a Hammerhanded Daemon Hammer.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

The problem is that most anything on foot that you'd want to use it on has an invul save. It'll pen light armor with ease, sure, but there's still only a 33% chance to pen armor 14 (and on a one shot weapon, that's not great odds). 17% chance to do basically nothing, and 50% chance to do nothing.

True, but on that 50 or 66% chance they fail their invulnerable save or your Pen and destroy a Land Raider, you just took out a 200+ point unit with a 30 point piece of Wargear. That's the thing, even if it only helps you out in say, one out of every 4 games, its a complete game changer when it does. Not too many other investments you can make that can say the same thing. Even if it's just taking out a Psyflman dread or Ravager the first turn (something it has a pretty high chance of doing), that's a a significant amount of firepower being removed for a pretty cheap price.

It's a decent piece of gear, all things said and done, but quite honestly with only have a maximum of 2 guys with one in a standard single FOC game...it's just not useful enough. With gauss weaponry able to wreck face on vehicles, who really cares about a single str 10 ap 1 shot.

The guy who loses a Land Raider or Demon Prince on the first turn cares about it, I can tell you that ,

Oh, ya, against dreads they're totally worth it! Honestly the best aspect about the tachyon arrow is it's unlimited range. Ya the strength and AP are nice but we can get that from other things (or close to it, anyway).

Oh and just FYI those percentages I gave were for penning armor 14, the 17% was when rolling a 4 to glance, HP loss is nice but it's next to nothing. The 50% was a 1-3 roll.

 tallerguy wrote:

If the Surf lord was a chess peices it would be a queen.

Not by a long shot...that's a terrible analogy! The Queen is the strongest piece in the entire game and the surf lord is far, far from taking that role...

 Sigvatr wrote:

 tallerguy wrote:

If the Surf lord was a chess peices it would be a queen.

Not by a long shot...that's a terrible analogy! The Queen is the strongest piece in the entire game and the surf lord is far, far from taking that role...

I'd say knight.

More like bishop. Can be useful in rare circumstances and can then move by a long shot, but is only a threat if your opponent does not pay enough attention to it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 tallerguy wrote:

If the Surf lord was a chess peices it would be a queen.

Not by a long shot...that's a terrible analogy! The Queen is the strongest piece in the entire game and the surf lord is far, far from taking that role...

The Queen is not the strongest piece in the game, it's just the most versatile.

 Sigvatr wrote:
More like bishop. Can be useful in rare circumstances and can then move by a long shot, but is only a threat if your opponent does not pay enough attention to it.

That was my second option, but the knight moving over other pieces and in weird ways is what really set it in stone for me.

Anyway, no point in the comparisons. LoL

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 tallerguy wrote:

If the Surf lord was a chess peices it would be a queen.

Not by a long shot...that's a terrible analogy! The Queen is the strongest piece in the entire game and the surf lord is far, far from taking that role...

The Queen is not the strongest piece in the game, it's just the most versatile.

I am really interested in what piece you'd consider to be the best then if not for the one that can move in every possible direction.

What do you guys think about tesseract labyrinth? Useful or useless?

 sounddemon wrote:
What do you guys think about tesseract labyrinth? Useful or useless?

Never used one, honestly. The units that can take it usually have weapons equipped that will destroy in CC anyway and anything I'd want to use it against right away has a high number of wounds.

That and it gets annoying to hear your opponent cry about how BS things are that necrons do. Hah.

 sounddemon wrote:
What do you guys think about tesseract labyrinth? Useful or useless?

If the Destroyer Lord could take one, I would always use it. On the foot lords, I don't put mine into situations where they could take advantage. I ran one one time because I knew I was facing a Blood Angel player for a league final. He was always running Mephiston and Sanguinar. So I loaded up with a C'tan using times arrow and lords with tesseract labyrinths. It worked well but only as a tailored list. The biggest turn off for me with the tachyon arrow and the labyrinth is the single use aspect of it. If you don't get a chance to use it properly or it fails to kill anything it's a major let down and you can't try again.

At least tesseracts can be put on standard lords. Maybe, just MAYBE, if you didn't have to give up all your CC attacks to use the tesseract it would be more desirable.

But ya, for the points I'd rather have more warriors or immortals or really anything else that will do much more than 1 attack.

Maybe I have always played my queens bad!. Bad analogy. Sorry.

The lab I have not seen a use for either. I know one guy who enjoys it. For half the points get a warscythe for the Swiss army knife usfullness. Armour bane to pop vehicles, Hurting 2+ save armour and one 1 str point away from Str 8 to insta gib T4 models. Furious charge from either Big Z or the traveller can give you the extra str point if you can get the charge off.

FYI, for anyone wishing to dust off their monoliths, you can take a list with 2x of these guys, 2x groups of wraiths (deepstriking all) and maybe some tomb spyders + a scarab squad for a pretty nasty surprise. 2x Monos + wraiths DS in (pull a unit of wraiths in if one doesn't make it) or if they all do (can take a comsat to help), warp in the tomb spyders for repairs + to add/support to the advancing scarab farm. As DS isn't done in the movement phase, you can do this in the same turn....that's a lot of high priority targets within 12-18" of an enemy flank.

You can also warp in C'tan and just mk sure the portal is facing such a way to block LOS. Your C'tan might actually see combat. I did a similar thing in a 1k point battle (mono + wraiths DS'd + brought in a squad of immortals) and this ended up giving me vanguard and a couple other things to secure the game. My 2nd immortal squad came through the next turn before the mono finally got taken out, but the damage had been done. It also sucked Coteaz into the portal + a few death cult assassins!

You can't bring in a unit through the monolith on the same turn a monolith deep strikes in.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You can't bring in a unit through the monolith on the same turn a monolith deep strikes in.

Reference would be appreciated, issue came up a few days ago with a friend's Necrons.

If this is true, however, think about Zankdreh, letting them drop down in the enemy turn.

Still, I don't like the new Monoliths. They need to be a lot cheaper or more effective to be viable picks.

agreed. HS right now AB, DDA, GA, > Monolith

Ghost Ark is a dedicated Transport. Also, I have had tremendous luck with the Monolith. Not as much melta out there anymore.

I do agree though, it is not the most point efficient Heavy Choice

 Kevin949 wrote:
You can't bring in a unit through the monolith on the same turn a monolith deep strikes in.

As far as rules for why you can, the reserves rule on page 124 state that you make the rolls "at the start of turn two." That ties into the deep strike portion on page 36 where it explains how you deploy them (the 3x bullets). The paragraph after those bullets that describe how to deploy them it says "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." One can infer from a RAW perspective that there's a difference in timing from which a unit is deployed from reserves via deep strike and the actual movement phase. Having deployed at the beginning of the turn, come your movement phase, you should be able to warp units through as your Monolith was on the table before the movement phase began.

Furthermore, if someone were to argue that deepstrike deployment were to happen at the beginning of movement phase, you would have 2x rules (the warp in rule and the deep strike rule) that are effective at the same time. As per the "exceptions" rule on page 9, the player whose turn it is can decide the order of these conflicting things....thus you deep strike 1st and use the portal 2nd as they're both done at the beginning of the movement phase (should you interpret DS as happening then).

Though the mono might not be as good by itself as 2x anni barges, you do get a degree of utility from it. A) it's right there on you enemies doorstep B) it's blocking line of sight C) it just warped in another high priority target (wraiths, c'tan, tomb spyders that are feeding a farm + repairing the mono) + it's armor while being one of the few closed topped vehicles is nice. If it's not taken out or only stunned, boom, there's another unit on their doorstep.

You roll for reserves at the start of turn whatever, you place your model and roll for scatter and finish the deep strike resolution in the movement phase. As stated in the deep strike rules "In the movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further......"

Now lets look at the reserves rule,"when a reserves unit arrives, it must move fully onto the table..."

So, we all know that movement is only allowed in the movement phase (and there is technically nothing before the movement phase, start of the turn IS the movement phase). Now then, when we look at the monoliths portal, it says that "at the beginning of the movement phase, nominate one unit...." or something very very close to that, but it does use the verbiage "at the beginning of the movement phase".

So, if we have rolled and resolved deep strike for the monolith, is it still the beginning of the movement phase? The answer is no, it is not, sadly.

By your definition it's deployed on the table at the beginning of the turn. There is no movement phase of any meaningful notice for the unit, as described later on, so it's indicating that the deployment of a deep striking unit is done prior to the movement phase. In the reserve rules for models moving onto the table it does state move models, but it's still not done in the movement phase. An exception to this is using the veil of darkness to deep strike on from reserves, but that doesn't change the fact that the monolith would still be on the table at the start of the movement phase and thus still be allowed to use it's portal.

abbazabba1920 wrote:
By your definition it's placed on the table at the beginning of the turn. Ergo, it can use it's portal at the beginning of the movement phase.

?? No, it's placed on the table to determine where you intend for it to land. It is not actually there until scatter and possible mishaps have been resolved, and at that point it has moved, else it would not "count as having moved at cruising speed".

Deploying the model and scattering and all that stuff is done at the start of the turn. Vehicles "count as" having moved at a certain speed and models can't move in their movement phase, which still implies that the actual deployment is done prior to the movement phase.

Where in the rulebook is anything defined "prior to the movement phase"?

It's not in the game phase breakdown, I'll tell you that.

I also already pointed out that deep strike says "in the movement phase IN WHICH THEY ARRIVE..."

When it says "at the start of the turn," I'm considering that before the movement phase. If I'm wrong and this does not imply before the movement phase, then "at the start of turn 2" would effectively mean "at the start of the movement phase," which is when one could exercise the "exceptions" rule and choose in their turn to do the sequence of deep striking 1st and then warping in 2nd, as they'd both be done at the start of whichever turn the reserve roll has been made.

It also says in the shooting phase in which they arrive. it's just stating in those later phases xyz conditions apply. The movement phase being one of those. On page 36, it says "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" Arriving from reserves, as per page 124 states "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls." Then it states (on that same page) "When Reserves arrive (ie. when you've made your reserves roll) the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below." Now, I know you're going to say moving, but down below it says "Models arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules."

Just because a model is moving, doesn't mean it only happens in the movement phase. Lash of Submission, assault movements, running in the shooting phase, etc are all forms of movement not in the movement phase. Deep Striking/reserves is another one of these things, as you're making the roll and deploying them "at the start of the turn" after reserve rolls have been made.

P.S. Is there a reason you don't want this to be so? I can't see anything in the rules as worded or as intended that would forbid this (please don't just say "b/c you're/it is wrong").

abbazabba1920 wrote:
When it says "at the start of the turn," I'm considering that before the movement phase. If I'm wrong and this does not imply before the movement phase, then "at the start of turn 2" would effectively mean "at the start of the movement phase," which is when one could exercise the "exceptions" rule and choose in their turn to do the sequence of deep striking 1st and then warping in 2nd, as they'd both be done at the start of whichever turn the reserve roll has been made.

It also says in the shooting phase in which they arrive. it's just stating in those later phases xyz conditions apply. The movement phase being one of those. On page 36, it says "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" Arriving from reserves, as per page 124 states "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls." Then it states (on that same page) "When Reserves arrive (ie. when you've made your reserves roll) the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below." Now, I know you're going to say moving, but down below it says "Models arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules."

Just because a model is moving, doesn't mean it only happens in the movement phase. Lash of Submission, assault movements, running in the shooting phase, etc are all forms of movement not in the movement phase. Deep Striking/reserves is another one of these things, as you're making the roll and deploying them "at the start of the turn" after reserve rolls have been made.

P.S. Is there a reason you don't want this to be so? I can't see anything in the rules as worded or as intended that would forbid this (please don't just say "b/c you're/it is wrong").

It says "in that turns shooting phase" on pg 36.

You're right, not all movement happens in the movement phase, some happens in assault and some in shooting. But rules that allow that kind of movement call out those specific phases.

I don't see your point in pointing out the reserves rule referencing to use the special rules of deep strike or outflank. Reserves is the general term for what everyone can do, deep strike and outflank are advanced rules for what specific units can do. They are all still in reserves.

As I said before, the only thing that actually takes place at a point one "might" consider being before movement is the roll to see if reserves arrive. When reserves arrive, it is happening in the movement phase, evidenced by the last sentence on 122 that says "the player can then proceed to move his other units as normal." It doesn't say you move on to the movement phase or any such thing, to "proceed" with something is to say you were currently doing that same thing. In the case of reserves, you're forced to roll for and move your reserve units first before moving any other units.

No, I would LOVE for it to work even though I rarely take monoliths anymore the allowance of this would make me take them more. Unfortunately, it just flat out does not work as such and it's been discussed many times since the codex dropped.

I'll concede to you, as that does make sense. But I guess what it comes down to is: are reserves done at the beginning of the movement phase/beginning of the turn? It seems to me that reserves are and then should be able to use the portal in the beginning of the movement phase. I dunno really. You might very well be correct. Does anyone know of a place one can submit these kinds of questions to increase the odds of them appearing in an FAQ?

I'm assuming then that you play that monoliths/skimmers can't scatter onto enemy units when they deepstrike, yes? Just curious, b/c one or the other has to apply. If DS is done in the movement phase, then a mono must be able to reduce it's movement to prevent a mishap (ie. being on a friendly/within 1" of an enemy) or conversely if it's done at the start of the movement phase/beginning of the turn, then it should be able to use it's portal that very turn. Sigh. I hate rules sometimes.