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Which one is the overall better unit in 6th?

Veterans' Pros:
-Cheaper
-Scoring
-1 More Special Weapon

Stormtrooper's Pros:
-More Reliable (Reroll on deepstrike, better armor)
-More Flexible (Can outflank/infiltrate/deepstrike without the use of vehicles or special characters)
-More Dangerous (under certain circumstances, IE fighting +3 or +4 armored infantry/MCs)

I'm not sure that they're really that comparable seeing as you use them to do different things, unless you're running Melta vets in a Chimera/Stormtroopers with Meltaguns deep striking behind vehicles (the latter you should be doing with Stormtroopers anyway). But if I was going to spend my points on one of them I'd say Vets.

I'd agree, pretty different.

I find Vets are a great plasma platform, while, due to deep strike, STs are better melta platforms

Also, something I've done in smaller games is send in naked ST units to harass PA support fire

I'd also say that vets are definitely a first choice over STs-- one can likely handle a lot, while the other is pretty expensive and specialized.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I'd agree, pretty different.

I find Vets are a great plasma platform, while, due to deep strike, STs are better melta platforms

Also, something I've done in smaller games is send in naked ST units to harass PA support fire

I'd also say that vets are definitely a first choice over STs-- one can likely handle a lot, while the other is pretty expensive and specialized.

Actually, in some circumstances stormies are a better plasma platform. Especially if you are shooting at MEQ. Math says 2 extra dead marines per turn average. Shooting against termies though, you would be correct, vets would be superior.

It just seems to me that everything vets can do, stormies can do better (with a few exceptions)... but is it worth the ridiculous price tag?

trollimus_maximus wrote:
It just seems to me that everything vets can do, stormies can do better (with a few exceptions)... but is it worth the ridiculous price tag?

Except score, which is an important exception. But the rest isn't really surprising seeing as Stormtroopers cost a lot more than Vets, plus you have to rely on them Deep Striking where you want them, which isn't going to happen all the time. 2/3s of the time you will scatter, that could be behind a building out of line of sight or somewhere where the rest of your opponent's army can see you to shoot your expensive squad off the board in the next player turn.

 Rampage wrote:

Except score, which is an important exception. But the rest isn't really surprising seeing as Stormtroopers cost a lot more than Vets, plus you have to rely on them Deep Striking where you want them, which isn't going to happen all the time. 2/3s of the time you will scatter, that could be behind a building out of line of sight or somewhere where the rest of your opponent's army can see you to shoot your expensive squad off the board in the next player turn.

Actually stormtroopers get to re-roll the deepstrike dice if they want. that's 5/9 chance of a hit. Plus they may not scatter too far, so that ups the chances of getting where you need to go to like 66%.

With 6th edition's nerf to the deepstrike mishap table it has now become more likely to simply get delayed, which is even better for stormies... as opposed to vets who automatically get destroyed if they cant deploy out of a vendetta.

As others are saying, they don't even remotely fill the same roles.

Vets are a flimsy scoring unit that goes near objectives and shoots at stuff with special and heavy weapons. They behave like most other units in the codex, except they score.

Stormtroopers are way, way different. They start the game in reserves and then, through one of their various deployment schemes, show up anywhere on the board without getting shot at first. Once they arrive, they blow things away with Ap3 small arms backed up with a couple of special weapons. When the enemy attacks back, they get a 4+ armor save, and in close combat they get Ap3 overwatch, +1A, and said 4+ armor. Given that you can choose exactly where they show up, you're in control of how much fire they draw in return, and exactly which targets are hit.

Vets are a troops choice that can take some better guns. Stormtroopers are the drop pod sternguard of the guard codex.

trollimus_maximus wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

Except score, which is an important exception. But the rest isn't really surprising seeing as Stormtroopers cost a lot more than Vets, plus you have to rely on them Deep Striking where you want them, which isn't going to happen all the time. 2/3s of the time you will scatter, that could be behind a building out of line of sight or somewhere where the rest of your opponent's army can see you to shoot your expensive squad off the board in the next player turn.

Actually stormtroopers get to re-roll the deepstrike dice if they want. that's 5/9 chance of a hit. Plus they may not scatter too far, so that ups the chances of getting where you need to go to like 66%.

With 6th edition's nerf to the deepstrike mishap table it has now become more likely to simply get delayed, which is even better for stormies... as opposed to vets who automatically get destroyed if they cant deploy out of a vendetta.

Good point, forgot about that. Still, that's nearly 50% of the time.

And as for the Vendetta point, why would you be putting them in a Vendetta? For a start if you do want to jump them onto objectives on turn 5 you have to get your flight paths right. Second, you'll need to clear those objectives, not that easy when you have a lot of points tied up in Vets hiding in flyers. Third, even if you do get your paths right and the objectives are clear and you don't deep strike mishap you still need to hope that the game ends so that your opponent doesn't shoot your Vets off objectives.

With the mishap table, it doesn't matter that it's less dangerous, even if they arrive bang on target, Stormtroopers are still too expensive for what they do, especially considering the opportunity cost that those points come with in the Guard Codex.

It's actually better than that. If you have a pair of meltagun stormies, they do their job if they land anywhere within 6" of their target to be prime, and they still get to shoot at all if they're within 12" (and given that you're likely attacking rear or side armor, this is often enough). Add the chance they hit on the first try to the chance that they hit on their second try to the chance that they scatter 6" or fewer, and you've actually got a pretty darn high chance that they land where you want them.

And even if they don't, half the time the mishap table just sees them try again next turn.

They're not literally pinpoint accurate, but you've got something like a 80% chance of getting a squad right where you want them, and that grows towards 90%+ if you're willing to just be close enough.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I'd agree, pretty different.

I find Vets are a great plasma platform, while, due to deep strike, STs are better melta platforms

Also, something I've done in smaller games is send in naked ST units to harass PA support fire

I'd also say that vets are definitely a first choice over STs-- one can likely handle a lot, while the other is pretty expensive and specialized.

This is going a little off-topic so apologies to the OP, but I'm getting more and more paranoid about plasmas. I think I might have done something unmentionable to the dice god's cat in a former life, but Gets Hot! kills me (pun intended). I'm getting to the point where Sv 4+ and FNP is a minimum requirement for me to consider taking them.

We're the guard, killing ourselves just rids our opponents of the satisfaction of killing us themselves. However if we're talking about things that costs more than 20 points, with the plasma, it may be more hurtful.

What I've started to do with my storm troopers is run 2 10 man squads with plasma and chimeras, deploy up front and scout 12" towards the weakest point of my opponent's line. It let's you start the fight closer to your enemy then usual, which is something vets can't do. Plus, with them not being scoring, they never hang back to hold an objective, but can certainly push even a heavily armoured enemy off theirs. Depending on the rest of your list that can be an advantage that you can't really put a points cost on.

 Rampage wrote:

And as for the Vendetta point, why would you be putting them in a Vendetta?

Exactly. If you lose the Vendetta, you've now lost the vets too. Plus if you run them in a
Chimera, they now have a second AV12 vehicle to deal with. And for 55 points.

I'm tossing my vote for Veterans. They're cheaper than a full Storm Trooper squad and have a better armory. Veterans can equip an additional special weapon and crew a heavy weapon team if needed. In addition, they have access to Doctrines. And they're a scoring unit.

The only shine Stormtroopers have are suicide Deep Strikes; the minimum five troopers with melta guns. They're a cheap throw-away alpha strike unit. A full squad of troopers is just a points sink and they're easily kited once they're out on the table, and +4 Armor isn't that terribly great either.

 KplKeegan wrote:
I'm tossing my vote for Veterans. They're cheaper than a full Storm Trooper squad and have a better armory. Veterans can equip an additional special weapon and crew a heavy weapon team if needed. In addition, they have access to Doctrines. And they're a scoring unit.

The only shine Stormtroopers have are suicide Deep Strikes; the minimum five troopers with melta guns. They're a cheap throw-away alpha strike unit. A full squad of troopers is just a points sink and they're easily kited once they're out on the table, and +4 Armor isn't that terribly great either.

I was sorta thinking this as well. But I wanted an alpha strike unit and veterans are SO terrible at that.

Ive been playing a gunline them list and I dont have any vets whats so ever in it and im probaby going to add two squads of 5man stormtroops each with 2 meltas just becase if i face a gunline that has artillery or tanks hiding i can have those units pop them and having those units in the enemies backfield now has your opponent shooting at them rather than at my line or my tanks. I would liike to run vets but i just dont have the chimera support and i feel vets in vendettas arent worth it.

tankboy145 wrote:
Ive been playing a gunline them list and I dont have any vets whats so ever in it and im probaby going to add two squads of 5man stormtroops each with 2 meltas just becase if i face a gunline that has artillery or tanks hiding i can have those units pop them and having those units in the enemies backfield now has your opponent shooting at them rather than at my line or my tanks. I would liike to run vets but i just dont have the chimera support and i feel vets in vendettas arent worth it.

EXACTLY how I'm feeling. Worded to the letter.

With stormies and vets its just a personal preferenc of how they will complement your army. with my gunline i dont really have a use for vets, as i dont want them in vendettas and i wouldnt know how to incorporate them with a gunline list. for the stormtroopers their much better for a gunline list in the way that if your opponent is running gunline you can drop 2 squads of 5 with 2 meltas each in his deployment and take out atleast 2 tanks or 2 artlliery, maybe more if they are squadroned. which now with that missing my army has a much better survival rate with barrage and big templates taken out of their army and they now have to kill those storm troopers and waste more units killing them as my line can use its full fire power to lay down the hurt on my opponent as well. I would assume thats a good tactic, thats 210pts for throwing your opponent way off early on. now if they run transports you could deepstrike the troopers and pop the most important transports turn 2 and make those units footslodge and slowed down as they now have to deal with the storm troopers and if the storm troopers are left alone they could continue to do damage and harrass the opponent.

my view is that stormtroopers have more direct rolls to fill in armies where as vets are those troops you could always have to capture objectives and can still do a lot of damage to the opponent. not all armies have a meaning or place for stomrtroopers where as vets almost can always be put in.

Hmmmm. Interesting. I need to rethink some of my lists now.......

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in

I almost never took Veterans before 6th ed became "Plasma Edition", but I find myself moving more and more away from Stormtroopers because I haven't been seeing a lot of vehicle-heavy lists. It may just be the local meta, but it seems like every army is going Skimmer/ Flyer heavy to take advantage of Jink.

I feel like the only way ST's are useful now is against a very few specific list types, otherwise you're gonna want to spend those 10 more points for a 10 man Veteran squad with 3 plasma guns(115) over a 5-man squad of ST's with 2 melta guns(105).

 VinnyTheRifleman wrote:
Just gonna throw my 2 cents in

I almost never took Veterans before 6th ed became "Plasma Edition", but I find myself moving more and more away from Stormtroopers because I haven't been seeing a lot of vehicle-heavy lists. It may just be the local meta, but it seems like every army is going Skimmer/ Flyer heavy to take advantage of Jink.

I feel like the only way ST's are useful now is against a very few specific list types, otherwise you're gonna want to spend those 10 more points for a 10 man Veteran squad with 3 plasma guns(115) over a 5-man squad of ST's with 2 melta guns(105).

Good point. But you can always use stormie meltas to pop in and assassinate multiwound toughness 4 models like a space marine captain, I'm sure there are other creative uses as well. Stormies are so expensive because of the ability to show up anywhere, and position them accurately.

Thinking about running both actually. Veterans in chimeras for alpha strike objective grabbers, and stormies for vehicle poppers, hit squads, and enemy drop zone harassment.

Yes the 10 man squad wouldnt be bad but also keep in mind there is no transport ffor those vets and i would gladly drop my storm troopers where they would effectivly be able to take out the plasmas as you kill off the closest models. But im not gunna do a unit on unit arguement.

Basically each unit has there strengths and weaknesses but basically if you need aomething important taken out you can use the stormtroopers to take that unit out.

Dont get me wrong both units are good and if i do recall wouldnt stormtroopers be denial units so they could give you line breaker?

Both units are good and as mentioned above its really a personal preference of what your army is lacking to maybe include stormtroopers. Hopefully in the next codex they get a lil bit better as their supposed to be the guards best of the best lol

If i need a tank or important character in my opponents deployment zone gone, i just drop marbo in there and blow them to pieces. With most vehicles being rear armor 10, the demo charge shouldnt have a problem penetrating.

Snapshot wrote:
This is going a little off-topic so apologies to the OP, but I'm getting more and more paranoid about plasmas. I think I might have done something unmentionable to the dice god's cat in a former life, but Gets Hot! kills me (pun intended). I'm getting to the point where Sv 4+ and FNP is a minimum requirement for me to consider taking them.

I feel you, I don't like plasmas on regular marines because of the cost (including the marine), nor on regular IG (have chances are 3:1:2 hit:fry yourself:miss, which isn't good enough for me).

Storm Troopers are just too expensive to kit out with Plasma in my opinion, hence the slightly less survivable plasma vets.