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If a wraith with whip coils is in contact with an enemy, reducing them to init 1, and They Are targeted with a clans times arrow, do they test on init 1, or unmodified init?

Apologies if this is been discussed already. Only topic I found was quite old, and I couldn't locate anything in the FAQ.

Thanks.

The test is on Ini 1.

If i am not mistaken the tesylt doesnt take into account initiative modifiers like whip coils. So they should test at the model's base initiative.

The Time's Arrow test is made against a models un-modified initiative value.

Here's a read for ya...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/410918.page

that discussion dosen't seem to really solve anything....

i mean i can see both sides the argument. the brb leaves it sort of vague, with only some hinting at "unmodified" in other situations. it actually does not say to use modified or otherwise.

my personal thoughts, i can see how if a stat is modified thats what you test on if needed to, good or bad. its like bikes... now they are straight up T5 not 4/5. they test toughness using the 5 value, even though bikes in codex descriptions state they add +1 toughness.

therefore if something applies a set value modifier, like whip coils.. well then i guess as long as your affected your init 1. and times arrow would work better on that model.

however it seems like a tough point to argue if i were to try this, and get told i can't. how would one go about proving or disproving this argument? what is their in the rules or FAQ to support either side?
while i tihnk the combo is cool and might be nice, i dont enjoy hosing people with vague rules and uncertainties. if im going to use a combo, it better have 100% as clear as GW can make it rule backup. and i like to know what counter points could be made so im prepared for the debate.

the thread linked looks old, and i do not want to necro it, and it also kind of left the overall question open, with no clear decision on the matter.

loreweaver wrote:
The Time's Arrow test is made against a models un-modified initiative value.

No such rule exists for times arrow, meaning you take the test on your current I value.

 DarthSpader wrote:
that discussion dosen't seem to really solve anything....

i mean i can see both sides the argument. the brb leaves it sort of vague, with only some hinting at "unmodified" in other situations. it actually does not say to use modified or otherwise.

my personal thoughts, i can see how if a stat is modified thats what you test on if needed to, good or bad. its like bikes... now they are straight up T5 not 4/5. they test toughness using the 5 value, even though bikes in codex descriptions state they add +1 toughness.

therefore if something applies a set value modifier, like whip coils.. well then i guess as long as your affected your init 1. and times arrow would work better on that model.

however it seems like a tough point to argue if i were to try this, and get told i can't. how would one go about proving or disproving this argument? what is their in the rules or FAQ to support either side?
while i tihnk the combo is cool and might be nice, i dont enjoy hosing people with vague rules and uncertainties. if im going to use a combo, it better have 100% as clear as GW can make it rule backup. and i like to know what counter points could be made so im prepared for the debate.

the thread linked looks old, and i do not want to necro it, and it also kind of left the overall question open, with no clear decision on the matter.

While I do see what you're saying and I still don't 100% agree with using I1 for times arrow tests, the FAQ for whip coils does say to count the model as I1 regardless of their actual initiative. So if you're disregarding the space marines I4 and instead using I1 then they would have to test at I1 as well.

Since both actions happen at the same though, unless it's your turn at the moment there's still a chance the opposing player will test at their regular initiative. So pretty much this combo will only effectively work on your turn (the necron players').

would not the order of operations go like:

- charge move made - say the necrons charge. i move the ctan into btb with target scary character. next i move the wraiths in. placing a whipcoil in btb with same character. the others go btb with other enemy models.
- the character is now in btb with a whip coil and counts as init 1.
- before blows are struck, and after the charge moves, i nominate said character for times arrow. he tests, fails, and is removed.
-blows are struck at init order progressing down and following normal CC phase structure.

if i GET charged, obviously the enemy is not going to charge both my ctan and my wraiths at the same time, so its moot. but if he charges either, then he has to make BTB with wraiths, and thus whip coils reducing him to init one. should the fight last untill my turn, i can move the ctan in, and charge in reaching btb with his character. after my charge, see above.

the only way i see this combo not working out, is if the other army keeps out of charge range and just shoots me. but the c'tan, plus wraiths, plus the destroyer lord im running makes up a fraction of my 2k list. ill still have other more serious threats bouncing around the table and being annoying.

and i do sort of agree, that the whip coil rules state "treat as init 1, regardles of actual init" and since the characteristic tests do not say anything about using unmodified, and the fact that things like bikes add a permenant stat bonus wich applies to things like ID and toughness tests... so i think its a viable tatic.

Sure, on the first charge moves it would go as you say. But as I mentioned earlier, the combo would really only work on the necron players turn regardless to what assault turn it is.

Whip coils is a constant effect so long as a model is in base contact with the wraith. The C'tan ability happens at a particular time. There is no choice on order as they don't activate at the same time. The WC activate as soon as contact is made and TA happens after all moves are finished.

Gravmyr wrote:
Whip coils is a constant effect so long as a model is in base contact with the wraith. The C'tan ability happens at a particular time. There is no choice on order as they don't activate at the same time. The WC activate as soon as contact is made and TA happens after all moves are finished.

Yes they do, they both take effect at the start of the fight sub-phase. And no, the wraiths whip coils is not a constant effect, it's from the start of the fight sub-phase to the end of the assault phase and then it takes effect again at the start of the next fight sub-phase.

The characteristic is based on the model's profile. That profile isnt modified unless the ability states it is.

Fragile wrote:
The characteristic is based on the model's profile. That profile isnt modified unless the ability states it is.

Which it does, by saying your init is 1.

I misphrased that second sentence. Characteristic tests are based on your profile. So all those tests would be "unmodified" unless the ability states its a "modified value". Even whip coils mentions that with the " regardless of their actual initiative.

Incorrect. Characteristic tests are on whatever your current characteristic is. Because it doesn't specify "unmodified". Unlike other rules like Sweeping Advance.

Time's Arrow + Whip Coils absolutely works. I've still never seen it, because C'Tan aren't that good, and it costs a bunch of points for a very situational effect.

Characteristic Tests.pg 7 To make a characteristic test use the following procedure: . Roll a D6 and compare the result to the relevant characteristic in the model's profile.

Pg 3. Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics.

MODIFIERS
Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics.

Modifiers modify the characteristic, not the profile. Tests are specifically against the profile's characteristics.

It's the same thing. You have a profile of characteristics; which can be modified. Tests are made on the characteristic, whatever it currently is at the time you take the test.

If a test or a rule uses the UNmodified characteristic, it will say so explicitly, as demonstrated by the Sweeping Advance rules on page 26.

yea, i definitly think this combo works. highly situational, and you would have to get both the wraiths and c'tan into the same combat, and with a rather expensive foe, to really make it worthwhile. seeing as the ctan with times arrow clocks in at 225 minimum, plus another power. and for a 5 man wraith squad with coils is another 225. so 450 pts on 6 models, albeit they have great saves and can take a beating... but they will no doubt take the entire amtire round of shooting untill one or both of those units goes away. and with the c'tan being much slower then the wraiths, it would be a rather impressive feat to get both units into the same combat at close to full power.

perhaps using monoliths and phased reinforments to get them into the backfield same time, but again... thats purchasing a special character and a pair of monoliths for the chance to take out maybe 1 character, and a few of his buddies.

When your top player at your FLGS regularly brings a combo of the Sanguinar and Mephiston, it's worth taking. I was lucky to get into the finals during our last league from 5th edition and was paired against this player. I ran two wraith squads, one with a Destroyer Lord the other ran next to a C'tan. Turn one my opponent assaulted the C"tan to avoid my Whips, but he rolled a 6 for his Sanguinar, I didnt even need the Whip coils. I can't remember if Times Arrow removed Mephiston or if he MSS failed and Force Weaponed himself.

I'm pretty sure that test would go against unmodified initiatives...

If you are doing this without being in combat of the thing you are shooting against...You can't do it, because you can't shoot anything in combat...

And if you are in Close Combat with someone and decide to shoot this ability, how do you shoot it? When does this ability go off? You're in close combat. You can't shoot anything. That's like saying Oh Im gana assault you and then use JOTWW. Because Its whatever.

You can JOTWW on a unit in combat if the first unit hit would be eligible for a normal shooting attack. It can pass through that unit and strike a model in base contact with a model whipped that is currently involved in a combat.

This is incorrect disregard

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You can JOTWW on a unit in combat if the first unit hit would be eligible for a normal shooting attack. It can pass through that unit and strike a model in base contact with a model whipped that is currently involved in a combat.

Doesn't matter, it would be normal initiative. The whip coils are only in effect from the start of the fight sub-phase to the end of the assault phase.

You are correct, good to know!

times arrow is a CC attack. requires a model in base contact during the assault phase, and goes off before blows are struck.

What is the exact wording on whip coils in the codex?

 nolzur wrote:
What is the exact wording on whip coils in the codex?

It's irrelevant there as they amended the rule in the FAQ.

After reading the FAQ, I would say that this combo would not work. The way it is worded, it does not change your initiative stat, it just "counts as" 1 until the end of the assault phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would imagine this works the same as things like thunder hammers with JOTWW. You use your unmodified stats for pretty much any test.

(I know there are exceptions, but those are stated in the ability's rules.)

 nolzur wrote:
After reading the FAQ, I would say that this combo would not work. The way it is worded, it does not change your initiative stat, it just "counts as" 1 until the end of the assault phase.

"counts as" must mean the same thing as "is".

I would imagine this works the same as things like thunder hammers with JOTWW.

Which works fine...

You use your unmodified stats for pretty much any test.

Citation required.

(I know there are exceptions, but those are stated in the ability's rules.)

No, the exceptions are to use an unmodified stat - look at Sweeping Advance.

 nolzur wrote:
After reading the FAQ, I would say that this combo would not work. The way it is worded, it does not change your initiative stat, it just "counts as" 1 until the end of the assault phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would imagine this works the same as things like thunder hammers with JOTWW. You use your unmodified stats for pretty much any test.

(I know there are exceptions, but those are stated in the ability's rules.)

Well, as rigeld said the "Counts as" is the same as "is", especially with the further notation of "regardless of their actual initiative". And no, it's not like Thunder Hammers because those cause the bearer to "strike at initiative 1", they do not "become" initiative 1.

I had actually thought the same thing about the unmodified stats bit but there actually is no reference to that in the regular rule book (other than sweeping advance).