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Ok, so sure, our daemon princes went down the toilet. Sure I was rattled at first, but I got over it. People keep talking crap about how it sucks, or it's at the same power level as before, or how its bland.

But honestly, would you ever have considered seriously using chaos bikers in the old codex?, what about putting heavy weapons on your havocs? Could you seriously use dreadnoughts and expect them to be consistently good? Who they hell used chosen? Chaos lords and sorcerers sat on the shelf for the 4th edition's careers.

I will admit that the power level of the codex is probably about the same as it was before, but I don't really care. When I picked up the codex today, I started looking at some troops differently. Yes dirt cheap lash prince is gone, but honestly, I think its worth it now that now that there are a lot more viable options then, twin lash prince, plague marines and oblits. At least in my opinion, lords and sorcerers are actually quite strong now; where as before they were not. You can run strong biker gangs, jump infantry lists, heavy daemon engine, cultist heavy, warp smith's, dark apostle lists or anything in between and more. I would way rather have a codex where I cant really find a truly weak unit that cant be strong (well, maybe the spawn), then a codex where my only option's to have a strong list were slaanesh DP for HQ, plague marines for troops, and oblits/ defiliers for heavy.

Even options that weren't half bad before like raptors kept there effectiveness while still going down in points. I am pretty sure besides a couple of exceptions, most lists dropped in points. Screw haters, I think the maulerfiend/ helfiend are very chaosy, (for god sakes look at the defiler), and slap a tail on the heldrake and it looks sick.


Edit: Also, so what if we don't get drop pods and land raider variants. Pretty sure know ones marines are as dirt cheap as ours now, can C:Sm take marks? they get sterngaurd, so what we have warptalons/ chosen. I'd take cheesy (not OP cheesy, like literal cheesy ) daemon engines over land raider variants any day. The adding of the warp smith/ dark apostle was also to help jump the gap between C:SM and CSM. Yes we cant get bikers as troops, or assault marines or terminators as troops either. Im pretty sure no one else gets cult troops as troops so.....

yeah i had a read through the codex last night. I think it's interesting, still not sure what to do with it, but there definatelly are more options for building your army...i think.

it actually looks like you can feild a non mech army nd do okay.

I'll have to see how it goes when i get sdome more guys to start making a list to play but i hope that i can use havocs raptors marines adn chosen as my main force, all troop and no mech...maybe a biker squad because i always wanted one

I think there are a few more ways you can play CSM now and still have a good time of it.

 Rogues Gambit wrote:
yeah i had a read through the codex last night. I think it's interesting, still not sure what to do with it, but there definatelly are more options for building your army...i think.

it actually looks like you can feild a non mech army nd do okay.

I'll have to see how it goes when i get sdome more guys to start making a list to play but i hope that i can use havocs raptors marines adn chosen as my main force, all troop and no mech...maybe a biker squad because i always wanted one

I think there are a few more ways you can play CSM now and still have a good time of it.

No mech could be quite interesting.

I was looking at autocannons for havocs. They dropped there points in half and iirc, a unit fully loaded with them is only 115.

Which is 8 Str 7 shots at BS4. I think that's pretty good.

Chosens are awesome, especially as troops. 2 attacks base with bolter, bolt pistol and CCW? Can take up to 5 special weapons? These guys are great.
While they prb dont seem that fancy compare to SW... Well SW codex is dumb and overpowered anyway.

 Jackster wrote:
Chosens are awesome, especially as troops. 2 attacks base with bolter, bolt pistol and CCW? Can take up to 5 special weapons? These guys are great.
While they prb dont seem that fancy compare to SW... Well SW codex is dumb and overpowered anyway.

No kidding. I haven't really taken that much of a look at them until you mentioned it, they are pretty sweet. That and the dark vengeance models are gorgeous. The marks are the same price as the regulars to, which I think is neat. Slap on a mark of khorne and I think they become a great counter attack unit for a shooty list.

 Jackster wrote:

While they prb dont seem that fancy compare to SW... Well SW codex is dumb and overpowered anyway.

No cheap flood troops. No fliers, and no way to deal with fliers reliably. With razorspam competitively gone, the Space Wolves codex is currently UNDERPOWERED. Without access to Imperial Guard allies, they'd be next to unplayable. Stop playing 5th.

/rant

 AngryMarine wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

While they prb dont seem that fancy compare to SW... Well SW codex is dumb and overpowered anyway.

No cheap flood troops. No fliers, and no way to deal with fliers reliably. With razorspam competitively gone, the Space Wolves codex is currently UNDERPOWERED. Without access to Imperial Guard allies, they'd be next to unplayable. Stop playing 5th.

/rant

6 Long Fang squads disagree with you.
No cheap flood troops? They are a marine army, cheap flood troops tend to come from allies.
No Flyers? So do about half of the codexes.
No way to deal with flyers? Join a club.
Razorspam gone? Same with SM, BA and GK.

They are nowhere close to underpowered.

 AngryMarine wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

While they prb dont seem that fancy compare to SW... Well SW codex is dumb and overpowered anyway.

No cheap flood troops. No fliers, and no way to deal with fliers reliably. With razorspam competitively gone, the Space Wolves codex is currently UNDERPOWERED. Without access to Imperial Guard allies, they'd be next to unplayable. Stop playing 5th.

/rant

Thank you, I needed a good laugh for today.

 AngryMarine wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

While they prb dont seem that fancy compare to SW... Well SW codex is dumb and overpowered anyway.

No cheap flood troops. No fliers, and no way to deal with fliers reliably. With razorspam competitively gone, the Space Wolves codex is currently UNDERPOWERED. Without access to Imperial Guard allies, they'd be next to unplayable. Stop playing 5th.

/rant

Space Wolves are nowhere near underpowered. Grey Hunters are Still the most effective troop choice in the game for their cost, and they are cheap for what they get.

You still have Long Fangs, Rune priests, all of the things that made SWs strong in 5th, is still strong in sixth. While Flyers may be the Flavor for now, Space wolves are nowhere near underpowered.

The bikers look nice and the spawn actually look playable.

The regular marines are a little better but not cheaper. Having to buy VoTLW and extra pistols is worse than they were. What helps is they get marks and icons now. But that also makes them expensive. Still, they are on par with the weaker cult troops.

Berzerkers are horrible losing an attack

Noise marines are horrible without being able to shoot and then assault. Why their weapons aren't classified as assault is baffling but that makes them almost unplayable.

Thousand sons are still horrible with no heavy options.

Plague marines still get 2x special in five and are as good as ever, but no longer scoring so they took a big hit too. At least they are fieldable and you can take a nurgle hq to get them back into troops.

Honestly mono nurgle seems to be the only viable build in the new codex. Sure they don't get feel no pain icons, for some reason slaanesh does. But ally in epidemus and take typhiod mary to unlock plague zombies and you have a pretty strong list with a lot of options. Everything can take the mark of nurgle so the Epidemus list is even more ridiculous. Nurgle Obliterators laying down some plasma cannon templates are scary.

The whole flyer issue is a temporary hype anyway, once enough anti-air weapons come out with new codexes it would disappear.
Just a way for GW to sell a bunch of flyers in the meantime anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:
The bikers look nice and the spawn actually look playable.

The regular marines are a little better but not cheaper. Having to buy VoTLW and extra pistols is worse than they were. What helps is they get marks and icons now. But that also makes them expensive. Still, they are on par with the weaker cult troops.

Berzerkers are horrible losing an attack

Noise marines are horrible without being able to shoot and then assault. Why their weapons aren't classified as assault is baffling but that makes them almost unplayable.

Thousand sons are still horrible with no heavy options.

Plague marines still get 2x special in five and are as good as ever, but no longer scoring so they took a big hit too. At least they are fieldable and you can take a nurgle hq to get them back into troops.

Honestly mono nurgle seems to be the only viable build in the new codex. Sure they don't get feel no pain icons, for some reason slaanesh does. But ally in epidemus and take typhiod mary to unlock plague zombies and you have a pretty strong list with a lot of options. Everything can take the mark of nurgle so the Epidemus list is even more ridiculous. Nurgle Obliterators laying down some plasma cannon templates are scary.

A vanilla CSM cost as much as a scout, not having a pistol is sad, but it allows you to min max a cheap shooty squad.
Berzerkers have one more attack on the charge due to rage, just as many attack as before when they are charged due to counter attack and they are cheaper than before.
Noise marine weapons now ignore cover, which makes them better at clearing hordes of GEQ hiding behind an aegis wall. Assault Noise squads still have their nifty AP3 flamers though.
Plagues got better with everyone having a poison weapon, though they cost more.

All chosen build actually sounds better since you can make cheap squads with heavy weapons plus specials. (They get one no matter regardless of squad size). You can spam a whole lot of PG/LC squad like 3.5 or melta squads of death everywhere or a mix of both.

Personally I like this new codex, sure there are no units that scream out as being must takes if you want to play competitively but the options for fielding a fluffy army are simply superb.

Having cult troops back in the elites section has really helped this because outside of their respective legion they are rare but within their legion as represented by the appropriate HQ choices they are very common. This isnt really that big a change but it just feels right IMO. Then you've got cultists who haven't been around offically for far too long, the new Daemon engines and Warpsmish bring the Dark Mechanicus in nicely and so on.

Now I will admit that I can see why Alpha Legion players are upset because they can't really use the proper tactics unless they take Ahriman or roll a 3 on the warlord chart. A bit of a pain but not the end of the world since the Alpha Legion do fight in the normal manner when they have to.

One thing I don't understand though is all the whining about how you can't do Night Lords because you can't take Raptors as troops. That was never what they were about. The Night Lords terrorise, then ruthlessly cut down a weakened and demoralised foe. To do that sure Raptors are very useful. Taking a couple of squads which you use to weaken the opponent would be about right but they aren't the bulk of the army. Plain old CSM are really the core of the army.

Going back to positivity though the Iron Warriors really got a massive boost, sure theres no 4th Heavy Support choice and no Basilisk from the 3.5 dex but the Culists, Daemon Engines and Warpsmith are all superb choices for the Iron Warriors. Which is good for me since I've wanted to do an Iron Warriors army since 3rd ed this new codex is the perfect excuse. Already got 1000 points sorted out, ok it's not ideal as it's the contents of Dark Vengeance minus the Lord with only a single CSM squad, a Warpsmith and a Forgefiend thrown in but it's a start.

 Jackster wrote:

All chosen build actually sounds better since you can make cheap squads with heavy weapons plus specials. (They get one no matter regardless of squad size). You can spam a whole lot of PG/LC squad like 3.5 or melta squads of death everywhere or a mix of both.

Shooty chosen troops are a waste of points. You pay a lot of money for all those short ranged special weapons and no way to deliver them. If you are in a rhino you can only shoot two of them. If you get out of the rhino or it blows up you are dead.

Plague marines are still the premier troop choice, once you pay the mark of nurgle HQ tax. 2 specials and hard as nails even outside their ride.

I've been going through it and I pretty much like it. It has lots to offer and once again customization. I like how you can turn normal CSM into psudo cult CSM in the event you don't want to take a lord (there are other HQ options that look awesome).

I think it will really be possible to spam a lot of cheap stuff. If you avoid splurging on unnecessary stuff. I love that you can get autocannon with HB sponsoon preds for less than a 100 points. Havoks with skyfire are nice, but you can make up for them with just volume of shots.

For something really shooty, take two of the above predators, one small unit of CSM, and stick them all behind a ADL with quad gun and go to town. Use the CSM for the quad gun and to last turn grab the nearby objective. That will be a lot of Dakka.

There are some things that make me raise an eyebrow, to be sure, but the codex does look like it has it uses now. I'm happy in that it seems like I'm not having problems finding things I want to take, but rather what I need to cut out to get it down to the points level I'm going to play at.

Kevlar wrote:
The bikers look nice and the spawn actually look playable.

The regular marines are a little better but not cheaper. Having to buy VoTLW and extra pistols is worse than they were. What helps is they get marks and icons now. But that also makes them expensive. Still, they are on par with the weaker cult troops.

Berzerkers are horrible losing an attack

Noise marines are horrible without being able to shoot and then assault. Why their weapons aren't classified as assault is baffling but that makes them almost unplayable.

Thousand sons are still horrible with no heavy options.

Plague marines still get 2x special in five and are as good as ever, but no longer scoring so they took a big hit too. At least they are fieldable and you can take a nurgle hq to get them back into troops.

Honestly mono nurgle seems to be the only viable build in the new codex. Sure they don't get feel no pain icons, for some reason slaanesh does. But ally in epidemus and take typhiod mary to unlock plague zombies and you have a pretty strong list with a lot of options. Everything can take the mark of nurgle so the Epidemus list is even more ridiculous. Nurgle Obliterators laying down some plasma cannon templates are scary.

Zerkers lost an attack sure, but gained rage and counter attacked. On the first turn they are the same as before at least. Granted they lost 3 points . To make a fair comparison, you would have to compare a zerker with a chainaxe to one before.

Why do you have to buy both for the regular marines? I mean depending on what you are doing with them, you might only need one or the other. If your using them for a role that needs both I would personally be inclined to just take chosen instead.

Noise marines are basically the same as before but dropped 20% in cost. You can complain about them but they are pretty much strictly better then before. That and a S 8 Ap3 blast that ignores cover can be incredibly useful.

Plague Marines are still a great choice, and I do appreciate there existence; but at least in my personal experience using them they are very tanky, but not very killy with only special weapons and no access to heavy. While mono nurgle is completely viable, I feel that the other god's mono list can be equally as good, (excluding allies).

I've been going through it and I pretty much like it. It has lots to offer and once again customization. I like how you can turn normal CSM into psudo cult CSM in the event you don't want to take a lord (there are other HQ options that look awesome).

I think it will really be possible to spam a lot of cheap stuff. If you avoid splurging on unnecessary stuff. I love that you can get autocannon with HB sponsoon preds for less than a 100 points. Havoks with skyfire are nice, but you can make up for them with just volume of shots.

For something really shooty, take two of the above predators, one small unit of CSM, and stick them all behind a ADL with quad gun and go to town. Use the CSM for the quad gun and to last turn grab the nearby objective. That will be a lot of Dakka.

There are some things that make me raise an eyebrow, to be sure, but the codex does look like it has it uses now. I'm happy in that it seems like I'm not having problems finding things I want to take, but rather what I need to cut out to get it down to the points level I'm going to play at.

I agree completely. Correct me if I am wrong but the triple las pred is cheap then C:SM to. I also found with the old book I was looking around to find points, but now I definetly have to cut points out. Its a great feeling. lol.

Kevlar wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

All chosen build actually sounds better since you can make cheap squads with heavy weapons plus specials. (They get one no matter regardless of squad size). You can spam a whole lot of PG/LC squad like 3.5 or melta squads of death everywhere or a mix of both.

Shooty chosen troops are a waste of points. You pay a lot of money for all those short ranged special weapons and no way to deliver them. If you are in a rhino you can only shoot two of them. If you get out of the rhino or it blows up you are dead.

Plague marines are still the premier troop choice, once you pay the mark of nurgle HQ tax. 2 specials and hard as nails even outside their ride.

Who says you have to buy all the specials, min squad plus a heavy shoots across the field just fine, get a special or two when things inevitably gets to you.
This isnt 5th, not everyone has to be in a transport to do something.

Shooty chosen troops are a waste of points. You pay a lot of money for all those short ranged special weapons and no way to deliver them. If you are in a rhino you can only shoot two of them. If you get out of the rhino or it blows up you are dead.

Plague marines are still the premier troop choice, once you pay the mark of nurgle HQ tax. 2 specials and hard as nails even outside their ride.

Chosen are much cheaper for basically the same thing while they are in the rhino. Out of it plagues are tougher for alot more points. Chosen have a lot more versatility, and in cc are about the same. That and chosen can take heavy weapons, plague marines can't.

Noise marines are basically the same as before but dropped 20% in cost. You can complain about them but they are pretty much strictly better then before. That and a S 8 Ap3 blast that ignores cover can be incredibly useful.

However they need 10 to take a blastmaster, and the Salvo greatly limits the Assault 2/Heavy 3 mechanic of the noise weapons before, giving them drastically less reasons to take them while moving.

Noise marines are basically the same as before but dropped 20% in cost. You can complain about them but they are pretty much strictly better then before. That and a S 8 Ap3 blast that ignores cover can be incredibly useful.

you know that is like saying that in the 3.5 sm dex and the 5th sm ed dex the cost of marine squad went down because they get free flamers.
NM cost more because you have to take 10 dudes to get a blast master . Right now a squad of NM is like a squad of GK with 2 psycannons , only one dudes have quake and i6 and the others are salvo[no charge].

Chosen are much cheaper for basically the same thing while they are in the rhino

am not getting this . hth chosen are power armoed high cost melee models and as viable as sm venguard without jump packs and shoty ones lost ouflank .

Who says you have to buy all the specials, min squad plus a heavy shoots across the field just fine, get a special or two when things inevitably gets to you.

5 marines is like saying to your opponent . here take this firstblood point , it is all yours.

Why do you have to buy both for the regular marines? I mean depending on what you are doing with them, you might only need one or the other. If your using them for a role that needs both I would personally be inclined to just take chosen instead.

because chaos is like SW and not runing double specials makes no sense for their squads ? so they have to stack up on plasma in this edition and as plasma works best in 12" or lower range the chance to end up in melee is big so ultra grit helps . Ah and SM dont have the fire power to win shoting against IG or necron so they offten do try to do hth , same happens against SW and trying to out melee SW with 1A is stupid.

Havoks with skyfire are nice, but you can make up for them with just volume of shots.

with necron runing 4-5 flyers at 1500 and IG runing 3-4 . how many hvy weapons do csm run at 1500pts 30 autocannons ?

why are you think that chosens are melee troops? because they have CCW and Pistols plus their bolter? Do you think Grey Hunters are melee troops too then?
They have weapons to shoot with and plenty of range weapon options.

And if we are talking about shooting within close range and melee, chosens are way better with even more specials and more attacks per marine.

So you dont like 5-6 marine units? You obviously never seen anyone using Devs or long fangs then?

 Ozomoto wrote:
what about putting heavy weapons on your havocs?

I took heavy weapon loaded havocs all through 5th

One thing that I would have liked to see return is the sacred numbers for squads; especially if it applied to all squads under a HQ with the appropriate mark.

The Codex is growing on me.. and I'm a Thousand Sons player.

Thousand Sons themselves got a little bit cheaper, and have a 50% shot at Doombolt (probably the best power in the book), since they have to re-roll a 3. A 2 is useless, as you may die from using it.. so basically it's 50/50 Doombolt or Firestorm. Both of those diversify the Thousand Sons targets. Doombolt is amazing against Heavy infantry, while Firestorm is pretty decent against T3 hordes.

Then you have Sorcerors, who come in pretty cheap with Mastery Lvl 3, Mark and Aura or Sigil. Roll 2 Biomancy, 1 Tzeentch, and hope for Endurance. Thousand Sons with FNP? Yes please. If you get Doombolt or Life Leech or are forced to take Smite, ride with one of the squads who rolled Doombolt and go towards the Heavy Infantry. If you roll Firestorm or Haemorrage, go with the Firestorm unit and tackle a horde. If you roll Enfeeble, start laughing at enemy Bike squads or Marine Equivalents as you wipe the floor with them with normal Bolter fire. Or bring the S4 AP3 Torrent to lay more pain on Marines.

All of these units come out 10-35pts less than their 5th edition versions (so free Melta Bomb on Serg and/or Rhinos really), which gives you more pts for support units. 3 units + Rhinos + Sorc is about 1000pts, so 850pts for support units at my preferred pt level.

I personally will be bringing 2 Maulerfiends, 1 Defiler, 1 CC Hellbrute, some Spawn (really kill light vehicles or tarpit S3 in assault now) and a unit of Terminators (for a deep striking threat). Speedy threats to allow my Sons to get in a position for their devastating psychic attacks.

Will there be games I don't get Doombolt against Deathwing and I'm screwed? Yes. Will there be games where mass flyers ruin my day? Yes.. I may switch out to Forgefiends or drop the Termis for a Heldrake instead, not a problem.. but overall I can *use* my models again and not feel like I'm stuck without options.

am not getting this . hth chosen are power armoed high cost melee models and as viable as sm venguard without jump packs and shoty ones lost ouflank .
because chaos is like SW and not runing double specials makes no sense for their squads ? so they have to stack up on plasma in this edition and as plasma works best in 12" or lower range the chance to end up in melee is big so ultra grit helps . Ah and SM dont have the fire power to win shoting against IG or necron so they offten do try to do hth , same happens against SW and trying to out melee SW with 1A is stupid.

That's why chosen are good? You literally said it yourself, "dont have the fire power to win shoting against IG or necron so they offten do try to do hth". Unit of 5 regulars with cc weps, 85, chosen for 5 is 5 more. 5 points buys your entire squad an extra attack, and the ability to be extremely versatile with your squad, (get super shooty, up to 5 special weps, pull the hidden power fist thing that everyone did in 5th [cuzz the guys with cc weapons cant get in challenges], or whatever the hell you want etc.)

On top of that they are a) cheaper to vangaurd, b) have both bolter's and cc + pistol, which vangaurd do not), c) access to shooty and melle options, d) can take marks/ icons. Its still possible to outflank them with warlord traits, and there are 2 special characters that guarantee infiltrate. I would way rather run them then basic C:SM, granted they are not troops, but any list with abaddon I would not even think of running the regulars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Squallish wrote:
The Codex is growing on me.. and I'm a Thousand Sons player.

Thousand Sons themselves got a little bit cheaper, and have a 50% shot at Doombolt (probably the best power in the book), since they have to re-roll a 3. A 2 is useless, as you may die from using it.. so basically it's 50/50 Doombolt or Firestorm. Both of those diversify the Thousand Sons targets. Doombolt is amazing against Heavy infantry, while Firestorm is pretty decent against T3 hordes.

Then you have Sorcerors, who come in pretty cheap with Mastery Lvl 3, Mark and Aura or Sigil. Roll 2 Biomancy, 1 Tzeentch, and hope for Endurance. Thousand Sons with FNP? Yes please. If you get Doombolt or Life Leech or are forced to take Smite, ride with one of the squads who rolled Doombolt and go towards the Heavy Infantry. If you roll Firestorm or Haemorrage, go with the Firestorm unit and tackle a horde. If you roll Enfeeble, start laughing at enemy Bike squads or Marine Equivalents as you wipe the floor with them with normal Bolter fire. Or bring the S4 AP3 Torrent to lay more pain on Marines.

All of these units come out 10-35pts less than their 5th edition versions (so free Melta Bomb on Serg and/or Rhinos really), which gives you more pts for support units. 3 units + Rhinos + Sorc is about 1000pts, so 850pts for support units.

I personally will be bringing 2 Maulerfiends, 1 Defiler, 1 CC Hellbrute, some Spawn (really kill light vehicles or tarpit S3 in assault now) and a unit of Terminators (for a deep striking threat). Speedy threats to allow my Sons to get in a position for their devastating psychic attacks.

Will there be games I don't get Doombolt against Deathwing and I'm screwed? Yes. Will there be games where mass flyers ruin my day? Yes.. I may switch out to Forgefiends or drop the Termis for a Heldrake instead, not a problem.. but overall I can *use* my models again and not feel like I'm stuck without options.

Don't use the gift of mutation on the aspiring sorcerer, put your sorcerer with termy armour in the same squad and use it on him instead. Just something that I find to make the aspiring sorcerer do a lil' better. Of coarse the primaris power might still be better, lol.

I run my Sorc in Power Armour so he can tag along with a unit in a Rhino for double Doombolt out of the hatch.

Squallish wrote:
I run my Sorc in Power Armour so he can tag along with a unit in a Rhino for double Doombolt out of the hatch.

Fair nuff'

Makumba wrote:

5 marines is like saying to your opponent . here take this firstblood point , it is all yours.

I think you're overestimating how easy killing 5 Marines in cover from across the board is. As a Black Templars player I have quite a bit of experience with 5-man lasplas-squads and they don't die even nearly as easily as you seem to claim.

 Jayden63 wrote:
There are some things that make me raise an eyebrow, to be sure, but the codex does look like it has it uses now. I'm happy in that it seems like I'm not having problems finding things I want to take, but rather what I need to cut out to get it down to the points level I'm going to play at.

And really, that's what's going to make the game fun again for those of us who don't do competition and just wanna play the frakkin game! I like the codex and look forward to fielding some bikers soon to support my tac squads of raptors.

You are not the only one. I think the book is extremely well written. I don't think Maulers are a very good unit, but otherwise, I'm not ruling out anything else in the book, which is a HUGE success. There are a lot of builds in this book to keep me interested for quite a long time. It doesn't scream OTT powerful like the 3.5 codex, but it definitely has the variety like the 3.5 codex which is what massively contributed to its success.

IIRC you also got Daemon Princes with access to Biomancy. Iron Arm says hi.

Well, I haven't see the codex yet since I get mine at the end of the new week. Nevertheless, after reading several threads about army and unit analyses, it looks quite promising. I'm sure that some decent/competitive builds can be hammered out, maybe including an ally detachment of Daemons or IG.