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I've never pictured noise marines as assault troops. They blast the enemy with loud sonic attacks, not with swords.

Then there's no point to having a higher initiative then, unless that somehow increases their sonic attacks somehow.

Noise Marines have always been combined arms troops. I generally ran mine in land raiders, shoot, then charge, then hold the position with the heavy setting.

As for the original question, I have no idea if the new Chaos Codex is good or not, because I pre-ordered it, guaranteeing that I'd not get a copy for at least a week after it came out Still waiting...

Noise Marines should be able to fire and assault... how hard is it to aim a noise weapon?

If you made it up according to the fluff they would be cover-denying assault weapons, that did something to pin the enemy down and control or disorient them so they could be assaulted. It would not be hard to make those rules....

But I'll take the salvo rule. 6E is more about the infantry shooting and they get more shots, cover denial shots. Also overwatch and i5 maybe is good defense against being assaulted. With some synergy like the psychic power that adds +1 strength, Abaddon could give them preferred enemy space marines, there are plenty of good uses for them.

I'll probably just end up building some dark mechanicus guys with big guns and saying those are my counts-as noise marines.

That's just the thing. They tuned up so many of our previously laughable units. Raptors and Havocs and Chosen and Possessed are all suddenly in line to a point where people can now include them in competitive lists without them being blatantly bad choices. 23 points per model for a TL BS 4 str 7 ap 4 Heavy 2 autocannon? Fooooookk yes

I see tons of awesome in the new Heldrake, though I'm less impressed by the Forgefiend / maulerfiend as far as rules go. They are useful but iffy based on cost vs. durability.

Obliterators getting Heavy Flamers, marks and Assault Cannons = biggest win ever as they were my favorite shooty unit of all time. I also suspect they will end up Fearless (makes no sense they aren't & especially for Mutilators who will need it to even function in CC).

We now have access to one of the best pysker options in the game, ML 3 sorcerer with a 4+ invul and rerolling psychic tests at 150 pts. Uhm, yes. Lets not even mention Ahriman - who is now arguably the BEST psyker in the game. All of our named / generic HQs got awesome perhaps with the exception of Typhus. Kharn and Abaddon and Lucius all pwn faces. Even Huron got serious love.

Despite people whining about Daemon weapons I see the Black Mace as being a ridiculous weapon. I don't care if its 45 pts. Imagine that in the hands of a Nurgle bikelord after the Tally hits 20 kills. 6-11 2+ wd ignore armor take a Toughness test or remove from play, no saves allowed. Oh and everything in 3" do the same, kthx. Better hope I don't roll Enfeeble or you can kiss your gak goodbye.

Chaos bikers are just silly good for the price. 108 pts for a squad of 3 T6 bikers with two melta. Cheapest escort unit ever with serious bang for the buck.



I could go on. Honestly, I want to. But that's enough. I love the codex, people who don't just aren't trying.

 Redbeard wrote:
because I pre-ordered it, guaranteeing that I'd not get a copy for at least a week after it came out Still waiting...

This! Frustratingly this...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Then there's no point to having a higher initiative then, unless that somehow increases their sonic attacks somehow.

That higher initiative is still pretty useful when the enemy sees fit to assault you happy little noise marine gun nest. Then the noise marines spank them quickly and go back to shooting anything else that moves...

Skriker

I am not a chaos player nor have I read the codex, but I have taken a look through some online reiews/discussions of the book and I have to say that I think it is a good perspective on Chaos Space Marines. I am not a tournament player but I do like to have armies be powerful in regards to their fluff.

For one, the artwork and quality of the book is awesome. It is worth the $50 or w/e it is, HOWEVER I wish they made a cheaper paperback version for those of us who want a book that can be traveled and thrashed and portable.

Certain books are better than others. The worst is when a book is overly cheesy for no reason, and I do not think that this book will be that way. It feels right, as someone who constantly plays against Chaos Space Marines. There are things that I will fear, units that are "cool" to fight against, and units that are just plain good, but for a decent reason.

The one thing that I will say I am not impressed with is the lack of dedication to one particular cult, in my opinion. Making an all Khorne army or all Tzeentch army should be cool AND viable, but at this point I see that not utilising the other aspects of the book will really hurt your army. This is especially prevalent bc my friend has a World Eaters army will probably be upset at the lackluster berzerkers in this dex. That being said, I actually think that rage and counterattack are good rules for Khorne, and they make a lot of sense. Some units just aren't meant to be as good as people want them to be.

I also feel that a lot of the complaints are coming from people who aren't willing to change their mindset. You can field 20 marines in a blob. That's unique and new and will make fighting CSM different. You have cultists, you have different marks, weapons, champions etc. You have a very flexible and customizable army here and I think people need to exploit THAT as the strength of the army. God forbid you can put a little flavor into an army and still be good with it because it is YOUR army that YOU know how to play. I think that this dex will have many flavors and that will make it viable. Nobody will know the perfect counter all the time, like seeing the same cookie cutter guard, Cron, or GK lists etc.

Anyway, ramble ending. I hope that all you CSM players can accept the dex for what it is and have a good time using it. Regardless of the rules, I think that the new release will bring some amazing models (besides the lame @$$ dragon thing) and can give some great themed armies and modeling opportunities.

-VardenV2

That higher initiative is still pretty useful when the enemy sees fit to assault you happy little noise marine gun nest. Then the noise marines spank them quickly and go back to shooting anything else that moves...

Spank them? With what, one attack per round? They don't get CCW + Sonics anymore, unless it's a storm guardian squad they aren't going to win the battle.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That higher initiative is still pretty useful when the enemy sees fit to assault you happy little noise marine gun nest. Then the noise marines spank them quickly and go back to shooting anything else that moves...

Spank them? With what, one attack per round? They don't get CCW + Sonics anymore, unless it's a storm guardian squad they aren't going to win the battle.

They can take the CCW for 1ppm.

My Doomsiren power weapon champion was always a favorite of mine in the last edition. And remains so this time around. Charging my noise marines is usually a bad choice. With the blast master, doomsiren, and sonic weaponry throwing out so many shots I tend to kill 2-4 enemy marines before you even reach me. That can add a good 2 inches to your needed charge range preventing you from even making it to me. Then once you hit I will strike first. Now the normal marines probably won't do much, if im lucky they kill another marine or two. But the powersword champion is going to challenge your champion, strike first, and with hatred get 2-3 hits with his powersword. He likely just killed your champion before you even got to swing and due to the rest of the fire your charging squad is below half strength.

For a "dedicated" shooting unit that I use my noise marines as, they require you to send a truly dedicated assault unit to beat them. Even things like bikers and raptors aren't enough.

As for the CCW for 1ppm. That means that I am paying 9 points for 9 more attacks. Not bad by any means. However so far I haven't done it. I prefer giving my champion the mutation buff. It will help me win the fight that matters, that challenge.

The ignoring cover on all the noise weapons compensates well for the lack of assault mode on sonic blasters.
They dont give a crap about night fighting, shroud stealth units and ignore the ever popular ADL that almost everyone use.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That higher initiative is still pretty useful when the enemy sees fit to assault you happy little noise marine gun nest. Then the noise marines spank them quickly and go back to shooting anything else that moves...

Spank them? With what, one attack per round? They don't get CCW + Sonics anymore, unless it's a storm guardian squad they aren't going to win the battle.

They can take the CCW for 1ppm.

That they can but 22 points is a bit much for something about the cost of a GK unit or the cost of a sternguard.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That higher initiative is still pretty useful when the enemy sees fit to assault you happy little noise marine gun nest. Then the noise marines spank them quickly and go back to shooting anything else that moves...

Spank them? With what, one attack per round? They don't get CCW + Sonics anymore, unless it's a storm guardian squad they aren't going to win the battle.

They are STILL chaos marines and still have a 4 WS. Geesh...don't have to be super specialized hand to hand monsters to succeed in melee with basic melee weapons when you will go first against most opponents except maybe eldar.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

They are STILL chaos marines and still have a 4 WS. Geesh...don't have to be super specialized hand to hand monsters to succeed in melee with basic melee weapons when you will go first against most opponents except maybe eldar.

Skriker

Going first isn't worth that much against other Marines. What's the math when they're charged by an equal point value of another non-super-specialized marine unit, say, Grey Hunters? Going first gets them one kill? Not having an extra attack or the ability to shoot and charge anymore means they then eat 27 attacks instead of 30? Yay for going first.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

They are STILL chaos marines and still have a 4 WS. Geesh...don't have to be super specialized hand to hand monsters to succeed in melee with basic melee weapons when you will go first against most opponents except maybe eldar.

Skriker

Going first isn't worth that much against other Marines. What's the math when they're charged by an equal point value of another non-super-specialized marine unit, say, Grey Hunters? Going first gets them one kill? Not having an extra attack or the ability to shoot and charge anymore means they then eat 27 attacks instead of 30? Yay for going first.

When you get that extra kill, therefore winning the combat by one and NOT running away and getting swept by marines that's a big difference Plus if the marines fall back you can shoot them again... it IS an advantage. Slight, but an advantage nonetheless, that could be the difference between winning and losing an objective, or even the game.

-VardenV2

Vaktathi wrote:]They can take the CCW for 1ppm.

From page 99: "or replace his boltgun with..."

You cannot take both a sonic AND a CCW. No "and / or" there.

Noise marines are fearless, so arent getting swept any time soon.

Boneblade - where are you getting that the havocs have twin linked autocannon? They do NOT carry reapers

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:]They can take the CCW for 1ppm.

From page 99: "or replace his boltgun with..."

You cannot take both a sonic AND a CCW. No "and / or" there.

Noise marines are fearless, so arent getting swept any time soon.

Boneblade - where are you getting that the havocs have twin linked autocannon? They do NOT carry reapers

Read the entry above that Nos, they can take a CCW for 1 PPM without replacing the Boltgun.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:]They can take the CCW for 1ppm.

From page 99: "or replace his boltgun with..."

You cannot take both a sonic AND a CCW. No "and / or" there.

As Sasori said, read the line just above that, right below the option to take additional Noise Marines

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That higher initiative is still pretty useful when the enemy sees fit to assault you happy little noise marine gun nest. Then the noise marines spank them quickly and go back to shooting anything else that moves...

Spank them? With what, one attack per round? They don't get CCW + Sonics anymore, unless it's a storm guardian squad they aren't going to win the battle.

They can take the CCW for 1ppm.

That they can but 22 points is a bit much for something about the cost of a GK unit or the cost of a sternguard.

On defense, don't forget the 3 overwatch shots per guy, the D3 AP3 hits from the doom siren (if you bought it), then the I5 strike first with 2 attacks each (if you bought the CCWs). That all sound pretty good.

On offense, since you trade in bolters for sonic blasters, they still can shoot and assault if you use the bolt pistol. Yeah its not as good as it used to be, but its still far from being gimped.

Other good stuff is that with Votlw and the lighting claw on the noise champion he is going to wreck face against other non HTH powerhouse characters. Since he has to call out the other sarge, he has a really good chance of killing them first (and getting to roll on the boon table), regardless of what else the guy is armed with. Then there is also the unit and him having FNP and +1 combat resolution and making sweeping advances at I5.

I really don't see the problem here.

 Vaktathi wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:]They can take the CCW for 1ppm.

From page 99: "or replace his boltgun with..."

You cannot take both a sonic AND a CCW. No "and / or" there.

As Sasori said, read the line just above that, right below the option to take additional Noise Marines

You can take for 1ppm OR replace the bolter with the following. No "and". Which is what I said originally, you just didnt read it.

If you replace for 1 ppm you cannot also replace the bolter - it is take OR replace the bolter. It would need to say "and / or replace the bolter..." for you to be able to do both

Ah, it appears you are right. My mistake. Very odd choice of options. Phil Kelly has done quite a bit of weird things with the book options.

I like the new Chaos Codex a lot, actually. It made a lot of old useless units quite useful; people spend a lot of time griping about how the Daemon Prince has changed. Honestly, I never used one; I'm happy with the price reductions to my Lords and Sorcerer. People complain about Noise Marines no longer being able to be five man units with Blastmasters, but Sonic Blasters are actually useful now. The Eye of the Gods table imported from WFB's Warriors of Chaos was a long-overdue addition to the Chaos Marines rules; the addition of more things loyalist Space Marines don't get should have happened years ago. Plastic Raptors alone would make every negative change in the new book worth it for me.

And this may just be personal opinion but I think the Heldrake looks really, really cool.

I love the new Chaos lords. Just ran a Khorne Lord on his mount with 4++ save and the Blood Axe. It mauls. Totally earns its 180 points.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
And this may just be personal opinion but I think the Heldrake looks really, really cool.

For me the Heldrake is yet another case of GW coming up with a good concept for a flyer and stuffing it up at the model stage. A giant mechanical dragon designed to tear other flyers apart is a pretty good idea and the model is well executed in some areas (the head and wings) but overall the proportions are a little bit off personally I intend to buy one eventually and using some fantasty dragon bits make a 40k version of Mecha King Ghidorah.

Having had one game with the codex I wish I could report on how good or otherwise the all new stuff in my army is but my Forgefiend was taken out turn one before I could even use it and one squad of cultists ran off the table as a result of the ensuing explosion. So I'll have to focus on the rest of the new stuff I ran. Not much to say really, the other squad of cultists took one wound off a Master of the Forge and the Warpsmith didn't get much of a chance to do anything, did some damage to a land raider but that was about it. Although since that was a big multiplayer game I'm not surprised that my small 1k point army didn't do much as I simply don't have much that can deal with what I was facing (deathwing and master of the forge dual autocannon dread spam) the next game I have should be more sensible. Who knows I might even get to use my Forgefiend but I doubt it everyone at my club has said that the first thing they will do against me is try to take that thing down.

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:
For me the Heldrake is yet another case of GW coming up with a good concept for a flyer and stuffing it up at the model stage. A giant mechanical dragon designed to tear other flyers apart is a pretty good idea and the model is well executed in some areas (the head and wings) but overall the proportions are a little bit off personally I intend to buy one eventually and using some fantasty dragon bits make a 40k version of Mecha King Ghidorah.

This I would definitely love to see!

Skriker

As I said, eventually, going to take a while to source all the bits I need.

I have no complaints about the book. It is loaded with options to make FUN army lists.

First ill start with what I like:

-All those old units from 3rd edition, the noise marines, the multitudes of csm, are once again a viable option, so I best get in the mood to paint.
-It feels once again more like a (c)haos SPACE MARINE army, as opposed needing Demon Princes and whatnot last edition.
-Turning cultists troops into unlock-able troops via Hqs is a great idea. They keep it open-ended for themed players so you can take a base Lord with a mark of nurgle for those lower point games, without having to field a monstrous point Typhus. Once again I am thinking about troop selections and possibilities, Im not just throwings DP, Rhinos, and Plagues into a box.
-Its fixed, not over powered, shiny, but its runnable

What I dont like about the codex itself
-Its fixed, but I had to wait 6 years, spend another 80 bucks on another overpriced GW thing. When a car manufacturer screws up they issue a recall, When software is no longer valid they give you an update, when a door sqweaks you put oil on it. When GW feths up, their stuff is broken, or obselete, you pay for it, big time.
-Its a nice looking codex until you realized that all the images are regurgitated, and all the fluff is pretty much same old BS story. Do my a favour leave out the artwork, make it soft cover, sans the fluff.... if I wanted it ill just look at any other CSM codex and look at the pictures and read it. Give me a softcover BW no fluff, no pics, and sell me that for 20 bucks, id be happier.
-I cant fricken find anything im looking for in it, Marks and Icons in different spots, give us the damn point values without flipping everywhere, its a pain in the ass, ive been there before, stop it!
-Rulewise its still broken, either 6 years wasent long enough to playtest, proofread, or otherwise think about how these rules could be interpreted. Any possibility great things happening to Chaos is subject to whenever GW gets around to fixing it (do they even read these forums?).
-When I started playing I loved how Chaos had very random elements in it, it was part of the fun, praying to the dice gods! Its like almost not there anymore! What happened to Fabius? Doomrider? the good old days? If your not going to make us tournament competitive at least make us fun to play? On that note:
-Give us a rule to shoot on our own troops in combat! Like WTF we are Chaos, we dont give a gak! Hell Abaddon is KNOWN for ordering fire on his own troops, Kharn already does kill them. Give us the ability to Dakka Dakka on a group in close combat! Blood for the blood god, all that jazz!
-CSM have become far too big for a 150 page codex, yeah its about time we need chapter supplements. We are the Emperors number 1 Enemy! they have how many Imperium related codexes? You give us the fluff, now give us the stuff! Having a themed army is MUCH more fun if there is benefits/special rules to go with them!
-Realistically if GW was a more responsible and ethical company they could have simple released most of these changes as a supplement, few point values here, couple options there, boom 6th Edition CSM Codex.

Unit Hated Stuff:
-Abaddon, Chosen troop choices? Comeon! Seriously though, no one is going to use this. I can understand how we all equate Abby with Termies, and how making them a troop choice is probably not the way to go, but like really? Chosen? Just leave it out next time!
-Khorne? why no love for khorne? Zerkers were never overpowered, infact they are quite easy to shoot up! Why rip their balls off? Chain axes AP4? Sure ok against hordes, but what the hell about everything else? Angrons troops mutilated to be blood thirty CC monsters have nothing special against AP3, and you take away an attack? Sigh....
-Fabius, ok almost no reason to take this guy? Why? because he only effects CSM, sure you could organize it in such a way to make some pretty beasty CSM assault units, but that is about it and frankly no one cares.
-Dark Apostle/Cultists? Ok fine, more "chaosy" then "csm'y", but if we got em how about either giving them something, or adding some more imperial guard turned chaos type units to keep up with the theme? Ohh and fix that zombie gak already!
-Chosen/Possessed.... if you are going to go to all the trouble to produce these models at least make it so someone might want to field them... thats called marketting and economic GW, and no... the more expensive you make something does not mean more people are going to want to buy it in this case... we are geeks and nerds, not actors and oil tycoons.
-Deepstriking, youve given us all the tools to make a pretty bang out deep strike army list. Except the ability to reliably DS, or like let us have two dimensional keys... or something
-For now thats about it for the unit hate on

Summary (trying to end on a good note)
Thankfully GW will probably not be seeing alot of my money anytime soon. No I will not buy that obligatory flier, nor the fiends, your normal attempts at making us buy new stuff have not worked in this case. I have better things to blow a few hundred dollars on... things that excite me which is pretty much anything. Thanks for the fix, im going to play with what I got, probably have fun with it, but I am not coming completely back in the fold. I gave GW a C+, and needs more effort... which goes down to a C for being late, and a D+ for reusing previous assignments. On that note im off to paint and mastermind new tactics.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
-addon, Yeah I know it sounds really negative, I dont mean to be... I am quite excited about the "new" codex, I love the game but GW frustrates me to no end! Its hard to stay enthusiastic about Chaos, when no one at GW seems to be.

 twistedbydesign wrote:
I cant fricken find anything im looking for in it, Marks and Icons in different spots, give us the damn point values without flipping everywhere, its a pain in the ass, ive been there before, stop it!

I definitely can't stand this. Some equipment/weapons are detailed in the equipment chapter. Some in the unit listings. Other rules are spread out in weird places. To be fair, though, this is a problem with all the recent codex books and I think is just a faulty organization method they are using to somehow make things "easier to find". Ummm yeah...when looking for gear rules I don't want to have to search through multiple sections. I want it all in one place. Much easier to find a ruling in an alphabetical list of gear than in a non-alphabetically sorted list of all the units in the army.

Skriker

Sasori wrote:
Space Wolves are nowhere near underpowered. Grey Hunters are Still the most effective troop choice in the game for their cost, and they are cheap for what they get.

The Grey Hunters are what all Space Marines should be. But they do need to cost them more appropriately.