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Hmmm. speeking of vindis in reserve i need to ask:
when should i reserve my stuff? For the last two games my vindicators and sternguard started off the board and rolled on
(twice facing vulkan drop pods)

Traditional reserves (ie: troops that dont deepstrike or outflank) for us are typically used for mobility, protection, and response.

Protection: aka vindicators and things which are high priority targets for your opponent with relatively short range. Thus you keep them out in reserve to protect them from long range shooting (and if they dont have any then dont keep them in reserve!) and wait for the opponent to get closer. This is best for vanguard strike and hammer maps since it's faster to get in range from reserve.

Mobility: poor mans outflank, again for maps like vanguard and hammer (mostly vanguard) where your opponent is expecting you to come from one angle and you can use your long table edge to potentially start flanking around him. I typically leave my bikes in reserve in vanguard strike maps for this purpose, and leave them out but hiding for the othr 2 deployment types.

Response: counter to drop pod armies. They drop in, you counter by popping out of reserve. Mostly for stuff like vindis.

Sternguard are not generally a good thing to reserve unless it's a super short map and you need them to just chill. Id rather have them out and in cover with my libby and then gate around as needed to deal with things.

Stuff to reserve:
bikes, storm talon, vindicators, maybe a combat squad or so in a rhino, etc

Largo39 wrote:
Traditional reserves (ie: troops that dont deepstrike or outflank) for us are typically used for mobility, protection, and response.

Protection: aka vindicators and things which are high priority targets for your opponent with relatively short range. Thus you keep them out in reserve to protect them from long range shooting (and if they dont have any then dont keep them in reserve!) and wait for the opponent to get closer. This is best for vanguard strike and hammer maps since it's faster to get in range from reserve.

Mobility: poor mans outflank, again for maps like vanguard and hammer (mostly vanguard) where your opponent is expecting you to come from one angle and you can use your long table edge to potentially start flanking around him. I typically leave my bikes in reserve in vanguard strike maps for this purpose, and leave them out but hiding for the othr 2 deployment types.

Response: counter to drop pod armies. They drop in, you counter by popping out of reserve. Mostly for stuff like vindis.

Sternguard are not generally a good thing to reserve unless it's a super short map and you need them to just chill. Id rather have them out and in cover with my libby and then gate around as needed to deal with things.

Stuff to reserve:
bikes, storm talon, vindicators, maybe a combat squad or so in a rhino, etc

okay, sounds pretty good. But what about the vindicators getting down range quickly? Usually the enemy isn't within 24in's of the table edge, so it's another wasted turn when the enemy can out maneuver them.

It's true and that's going to be your judgement call there!

here's what you can expect:
Your Vindi will be priority number 1, and number 2 only if they are a flyer army and you have a quad/Icarus cannon.

The general expectation with a Vindi is to get off 1-2 shots, that's your goal, so you need it to survive to that point.

So the decision whether or not to reserve him really depends on the makeup of your opponents army. If he's all deep striking, then you can sure bet he'll deepstrike someone with melta or the like right next to your precious and blow him out of the water. In this case, reserve him. Sure you may not get him when you need, but it beats him being blown up.

If your opponent is lots of long range and you are able to keep him out of range or in decent cover, then keep him out. Otherwise id reserve him! Note, if they are ALL long range, then just keep him out anyways, because otherwise he'll never get a chance to do anything. Note that most of the top tier armies though right now have a key element that is midfield (wraiths, strike squads, all of nids, etc), so you SHOULD be able to get a shot off the turn you come out of reserve. If not then that means you're handling your opponent's pressure pretty well orrr ur lines are already swamped and everything is in CC. *shrug*

If your opponent is all medium range (GK, crons, etc) then yeah keep him out, you shoudl be able to maneuver him such that he can get in range on your turn.

Also remember it's not 24" away from the table edge for vindicators. It's 30" away from the table edge, 6" move off table edge, then your 24" range. Which in 2/3 deployments is 6" past centerline on their side. That's a big deal for any non gunline army that's trying to take centerfield.

Vindis in my opinion should only reserve in lightly armoured lists.

When you can present an AV14 and 13 armoured wall, its game on. Scattler tactical terminators throughout for counters to close in support.

Unfortunately if the opponent has vindicators this approach can now epic fail as whole blast is max strength

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Vindis in my opinion should only reserve in lightly armoured lists.

When you can present an AV14 and 13 armoured wall, its game on. Scattler tactical terminators throughout for counters to close in support.

Unfortunately if the opponent has vindicators this approach can now epic fail as whole blast is max strength

Actually, once went against an opponent with 3 vindicators while I only had two, and mine ended up winning the dual of the tanks

@ Largo39 Hmm, i understand! thanks!

I have to try and figure out what to do to most things and what to use the rhinos as cover. now, I need to ask again: how could one use rhinos to protect the best targets in your army.

You can do some protection with rhinos and i've done it sucessfully before. What you do is you get your rhino next to your vindi and then shoot the vindi first and have the rhino go all out and move his 6 in front of the vindicator. For anything not elevated it pretty much completely blocks LOS to the vindi.

But that's an expensive 35 point movable wall, im less thrilled about rhinos nowadays though they aint bad, just, i dunno, id rather have more guns.

hmmm, I think I have to lean how to use them better, but now a follow up question: How would you deal with obliterator spam?

I like this thread, its giving me advice on things I never though to ask! let me see if I can add two cents, obliterator spam is pretty hard to kill...sometimes, I find that they are rather costly so some focus fire with weapons that can get around their armor is great.

Just remember that your opponent's dice like to roll ones on armor saves as much as yours do. Give them the chance.

Sternguard rapid firing hellfire rounds will kill anything with a toughness score and an armor save.

The oft-maligned heavy bolter has the strength to wound just about anything, the range to hit them, and the number of shots to force armor checks until they fail.

This thread is awesome! i have read a lot of tips for me to better utilize my brave Blood Ravens! You guys are great!

I have a couple of questions though; is Cato Sicarius worth his price? Also, I'm thinking of making a command squad on bikes and spam some plasmaguns, is this a good idea?

Talking about tacticals squads and all things codex SM ..when do you guys think it's worth taking a rhino or rb over just saving those points for more guns...sometimes I feel like the 105 pts in rhinos for 3 tactical squads is better spent on some more shooty elements. But then I feel like if they do survive pass turn 2 I have so much better mobility.

Thoughts on this predicament of saving pts vs more mobility?

The way I view rhinos is they offer a small modicum of protection. Instead of losing 3 tactical marines to shooting you get your transport blown up instead. Razorbacks are one of those things you should build a list around and go big or go home. Take 6 or take non. I personally don't use razorbacks and never have. But I use rhinos or drop pods for every squad I run that can take one.

oh, an ageis defense line is pretty good with tankhunter I found out. The only thing that is their bane is AP3 ignore cover stuff.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
oh, an ageis defense line is pretty good with tankhunter I found out. The only thing that is their bane is AP3 ignore cover stuff.

This is where anti-flying-dragon-breath-weapon-o-ap3-doom comes in.
Sicarious + Tactical Squad (for tank hunters) + Ageis.... pricey.
I think it's just cheaper to go with Scouts and Telion.

Well i like sicarius so hahaha.

hmmm.... how would you use a stormtalon?

Well, I'm very rusty with 40k... I read the rules on the Stormtalon.
They are nifty, and can make use of terrain well enough due to their small size. Their missile launcher and AC make it very flexible in target selection.

Personally, all my FA slots are Attack Bikers... I don't have room to fit in a Stormtalon into my lists. :-(

 Sanctjud wrote:
Well, I'm very rusty with 40k... I read the rules on the Stormtalon.
They are nifty, and can make use of terrain well enough due to their small size. Their missile launcher and AC make it very flexible in target selection.

Personally, all my FA slots are Attack Bikers... I don't have room to fit in a Stormtalon into my lists. :-(

Just as an aside, something I've found is that if I'm taking more than 1 biker squad in fast attack, at that point it's usually worth investing in a Captain on a Bike to make those squads scoring (unless you are taking minimized squads, but I've honestly found that going for a full squad and using combat tactics offers more versatility).

The Stormtalon really serves two roles, the first being an anti-air fighter, and the second is flying around taking out medium toughness targets (AV 10-12 Vehciles, medium infantry, etc). The best way to kit one out is either with Typhoon Missiles or Skyhammer Missiles. As they are one of the few sources outside of an Aegis that codex marines can take, they might be worth investing in, but they don't even begin to reach the power level offered by Vendettas.

RegalPhantom wrote:


Just as an aside, something I've found is that if I'm taking more than 1 biker squad in fast attack, at that point it's usually worth investing in a Captain on a Bike to make those squads scoring (unless you are taking minimized squads, but I've honestly found that going for a full squad and using combat tactics offers more versatility).

Heh, yea, I use Captain, 3 troop units, and 9 attack bikes for FA Str 10 needed to instant kill bikers is delicious.

As for Vendettas...their tax is like....140 points (aka, cheap HQ the psycher one and naked Veterans) before the bare bones Vendetta...making it a minimum of 270 points investment...lets assume 30 points of gear for the HQ/T...so a 300 point module.

alright, so now i ned to ask: what is the best ways to defeat the new chaos forces?

Depends on what units your talking about?
Cultists? - Flamer templates followed by assault
Dakkafiend- same way you kill a dreadnought. Mid->high str weaponry
Maulerfiend-stay away and shoot it till its dead.
Abaddon-stay away from CC and lots of shots
Helldrake-anti air, aegis or autocannon dreads.

thousand suns?

 Sanctjud wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:


Just as an aside, something I've found is that if I'm taking more than 1 biker squad in fast attack, at that point it's usually worth investing in a Captain on a Bike to make those squads scoring (unless you are taking minimized squads, but I've honestly found that going for a full squad and using combat tactics offers more versatility).

Heh, yea, I use Captain, 3 troop units, and 9 attack bikes for FA Str 10 needed to instant kill bikers is delicious.

As for Vendettas...their tax is like....140 points (aka, cheap HQ the psycher one and naked Veterans) before the bare bones Vendetta...making it a minimum of 270 points investment...lets assume 30 points of gear for the HQ/T...so a 300 point module.

Welcome back Sanct! Glad to have you back on the dark side

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
thousand suns?

Step 1: You shoot them with boltguns.
Step 2: ???
step 3: Laugh.
Step 4: Profit!

Seriously just high torrent of fire for 1ksons is sufficient. Or assault because if their no over watch.

Chaos struggle to coord

Ie they often short ranged/cc so those elements will advance

Stagger them. Might be as simple as stopping two rhinos.

Then you can take bite sized assault elements in your kill zone.

Expect less DPs now but plenty of bikers.

T5 bikers, solution is plasmaguns. Devs with 4 plasmacannons is nice too.

This advise is really handy, thanks guys.

btw, I'm thinking of adding for my Blood Ravens army either an Assault Termy squad w/ LR, or a Storm Talon (or maybe both). Considering fliers are good in 6th, that would be a reason to take them. However, I'm running into chaos players with lots of KBs, so a counter-strike units is absolutely needed.

Which would you guys pick, and why?

From what I've seen, flyers are good supporting elements, but they don't dominate until you are in the 4-5 numbers.

But, between a ground pounder termies and LR and a few Talongs...it really depends on the rest of the list and what they can handle....or what you fear more: enemy fliers and armor or a deathstar unit that needs hammers to the face to deal with.

Storm Talons rock at hunting MC's as well.

Concerning Rhinos, I used to take 2 Tactical Squads in Rhinos religiously, but in 6th after a few games, I thought "Why take them? They only blow up 1st turn ..." that next tournament I played, I wished I had them all 3 rounds! Sure you can't assault out of them, but for the aforementioned tactics they are valuable to keep for protection.

Seriously, mastering Tactical Squads and Rhinos is the key to mastering any Space Marine Force, as the core of most armies is 2-3 units in Rhinos.