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Largo39 wrote:

Notes about the Mortis Contemptor dreadnought: 180 with 2 of the kheres assault cannons (6 shots instead of 4), BS 5, Front Armour 13, 5++ save vs ranged. Can also give it a 2 str 8 ap 3 missile shots (though honestly i just get another platform instead, i dont like all my AA in ONE guy, though i do lose another missile shot). More importantly though he is bs 5 and has skyfire/interceptor when standing still, so he makes a great candidate to put on a icarus lascannon. Sure you give potentially give up one of your AC shots if you fire it, but it mitigates the range issue of the cannons and you can use them instead of anything gets close ( I try to have a squad also in BTB with the icarus so i can choose who fires it).

Mortis Contemptors don't have interceptor, just skyfire.

Mike712 wrote:

Largo39 wrote:

Notes about the Mortis Contemptor dreadnought: 180 with 2 of the kheres assault cannons (6 shots instead of 4), BS 5, Front Armour 13, 5++ save vs ranged. Can also give it a 2 str 8 ap 3 missile shots (though honestly i just get another platform instead, i dont like all my AA in ONE guy, though i do lose another missile shot). More importantly though he is bs 5 and has skyfire/interceptor when standing still, so he makes a great candidate to put on a icarus lascannon. Sure you give potentially give up one of your AC shots if you fire it, but it mitigates the range issue of the cannons and you can use them instead of anything gets close ( I try to have a squad also in BTB with the icarus so i can choose who fires it).

Mortis Contemptors don't have interceptor, just skyfire.

Incorrect, check its latest entry in imperial armor aeronautica. You will find it has both skyfire and interceptor.

 Doomhunter wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

Largo39 wrote:

Notes about the Mortis Contemptor dreadnought: 180 with 2 of the kheres assault cannons (6 shots instead of 4), BS 5, Front Armour 13, 5++ save vs ranged. Can also give it a 2 str 8 ap 3 missile shots (though honestly i just get another platform instead, i dont like all my AA in ONE guy, though i do lose another missile shot). More importantly though he is bs 5 and has skyfire/interceptor when standing still, so he makes a great candidate to put on a icarus lascannon. Sure you give potentially give up one of your AC shots if you fire it, but it mitigates the range issue of the cannons and you can use them instead of anything gets close ( I try to have a squad also in BTB with the icarus so i can choose who fires it).

Mortis Contemptors don't have interceptor, just skyfire.

Incorrect, check its latest entry in imperial armor aeronautica. You will find it has both skyfire and interceptor.

Does the AA mount rule from that book translate to standard 40k?

Edit: No Need to answer, found out myself, I have 2 already on order from FW, with weapon options and magnets from ebay, can't wait to try them out!

Is the mortis a H/S choice?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Is the mortis a H/S choice?

Yes.

Do you know if the siege list can squadron them?

I have a wicked idea

Mortis Contemptors + Strom Eagle=bye bye flyers(imho)

What do you guys think of this? I'll take a storm eagle over 2 storm talons any day. But whats your opinions?

a storm eagle seems to me to be a stormRaven w/o as much options

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
a storm eagle seems to me to be a stormRaven w/o as much options

For what it's worth the storm eagle is a 10 times nicer model than either the talon or raven.

it's all in the eyes of the beholder. I rather like the stormtalon myself, but I'm not as fond of the raven (or the thunderhawk, for that matter, though I know it's heresy to admit that)

Mike712 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
a storm eagle seems to me to be a stormRaven w/o as much options

For what it's worth the storm eagle is a 10 times nicer model than either the talon or raven.

That is true I like the storm egal myself, too, just saying it seems to have less options. But what would you want more...

The stormEagle
or
the Castius assault ram?

I keep hearing how folks don't like to allow FW rules and that many tournaments don't allow them either, which makes me sad. FW has a lot of great models that I'd love to have, but not if they're just going to sit on my shelf most of the time... :(

 varl wrote:
I keep hearing how folks don't like to allow FW rules and that many tournaments don't allow them either, which makes me sad. FW has a lot of great models that I'd love to have, but not if they're just going to sit on my shelf most of the time... :(

You ask before hand with the person you play before hand if FW is okay. I myself a fun game against some forge world models. I will never forget that Iron Warrior army that used a contempter dreadnaught and two decimater walkers.

on the flip side... Blight drones they made my marines cry.

And I rather not have the FW discussion in my thread atm. look through General disscusions for that stuff please

... Ok, back on topic.

Devastator Squads and Assault Squads: they are two often overlooked choices of the FOC chart, and this is unfortunate. They are a Fast and Heavy version of our beloved Tactical Marine, one outfitted with heavy weapons to "devastate" the opponent's infantry or vehicles, the other far faster and maneuverable, capable of cutting off an enemy's advance or storming an enemy strong point.

These guys get a bad rep in the modern world of Heavy Tank spam, Storm Talons and Land Speeders; however they still can serve a vital role in the army, especially now that vehicles are a tad more fragile in 6th edition. I'm interested to know everyone's takes on builds, tactics, and uses for the lowly Devastator Squads and Assault Squads.

 evildrspock wrote:

They are a Fast and Heavy version of our beloved Tactical Marine

And therein lies the problem. Tactical squads are already over-costed and perform poorly (but they score which means you need plenty of them, unless you're running a bikes or pedro/sternguard list) then you pay extra points on top of that for a small amount of specialisation, devs albeit better than assault squads as long as you keep them cheap 4 MLs for 150pts or heavy bolters which are rather situational anti horde weaponary, forget about putting LCs or PCs in a dev squad, the cost just becomes insane.

MLs/HBs/MMs should be 5 points cheaper, PCs should be 5 points cheaper and LCs should be 10 points cheaper for dev squads to bring them to somewhere between where they are now and the horrifically under-costed long fangs of the space wolves.

Assault squads on the other hand should be no more expensive than tac squads with the current options they have available, this would make them properly usable.

My take on Vanilla Taticals

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
1.What can they do well?

Walk up to midfield, bring in enough bolters and resilience to be hard to shift and to force enemies out.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
2.what should they do?

Keep themselves close to the middle of the table, where they can easily remobilize on their rhinos to grab nearby objectives. Deal with enemy infantary by either bolter fire or, rarely, melee combat. Contest objectives. You will probably want cheap allied troops to hold backfield objectives though.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
3.How and when to combat squad

All the time where there isnt a KP objective. Small units bring much less waste of shooting, and while individually they are more vulnerable to melee, The enemy needs 2 sucessful charges to get rid of two units of 5 marines instead of one of 10.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
4. what can combat squads do well?

Exactly the same as what marines do well. Vanilla Marines are not that good in CC in the first place, so they gain very little for being stuck into a big unit instead of two smaller ones.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
5.how to use a rhino

1) Mobility. This was the most important thing in 5th edition, it still is the most important thing in 6th edition. You bring a transport because you want your troops to move somewhere. If it is still alive at the later stages on the game, you can embark again and do a last turn rush into a objective.
2) Mobile Bunker. A Rhino can be used as cover to a marine squad. Either put it between the marines and something you dont want shooting at them, or put the marines inside and have them shoot special weapons when the enemy has stronger anti-infantary than you in that part of the board.
3) Disruption. Tank Shock.
4) Sniping. Block view to a character inside a enemy unit with your rhino, shoot at that unit with your marines and the character cant use his save to absorb the shots.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
6.what should the sergeant have?

I would go with nothing. Or at most a power weapon.

Why?

Vanilla Taticals are not good in melee in the first place. The only things that they can win melee against are things that are atrocious at it in the first place ( IG, Tau). Giving your sergeant a special weapon doesnt change the fact that you do not have enough attacks to handle anything reasonable in melee. Also, he can be challenged away, so you end up using his special weapon against a single guy for a turn, instead of helping eat up bodies of the unit. And frankly, he cannot win many challenges, PW or not. With a PW he can kill most marine sergeants in a challenge, but he has a good chance of biting it even against another naked marine simply because both will strike simultaneously. A Fist will get him killed before he can strike.

My take on Vanilla marines:

They have the ability to TAC - lots of gear and toys but few boys. Even fewer specializations and most success I've had is shooty lists. Other dexes can out assault or outmaneuver our boys in PA so I try to use them like the fluff says. Hit hard and sudden. I'll show a list I like that hasn't won tournaments and go through my mindset and tactics.

Epi Librarian
roll for telepathy or dex - puppet master or invisibility is incredible. Standard powers of avenger/GOI or null/your choice also makes a big difference in where you place him
pros - classic leader that's better point for point than the captain.
con - playstyle may have him backseat to a SC or bike Capt for fast troops

troops - I take one squad for every 500 points. We'll use 1500 to avoid dbl FOC lists/counters

1- flamer/combi flamer/ML in a RB. Allows the Libby to use telepath powers and ride with someone. Also lets the sarge help template something that NEEDS to die
2 - plasma/combiplasma/ PC or LC. Take down light-medium transports and fry terminators. I sometimes give a rhino or the RB to them. Mostly they sit on an objective and use the 36-48" guns.
3 - melta/combimelta/ MM in DP. Come down second to score/contest late game. If they come in earlier than it can still pop a rear action tank or other troublemaker.

Dread or IC in a DP - this is what comes down first and meltas the side or rear of a tank. I prefer the IC because it can assault or mess up the enemy tactics/shooting priority. And anything that eats up ML/LCs at it isn't shooting at anyone else

Rifledread - 4tl shoots at flyers? yes please. light and medium transports? again yes. All the wonders of range, armor, and in a pinch can assault at str 6 oh yes. I park him by an objective or march him behind the rhino/RB for cover.

Stormtalon with typhoon - come in for support and if things get hot zoom off. I find it a strong counter to enemy DPs, a good flanker with its range and of course some anti air help.

Vindicator with siege shield and storm bolter- av13 with 30" no mans land and ordnance and can kill terminators/bikers/deny FNP. I park it in terrain and plow forward with impunity. Also the extra weapon is almost mandatory with random weapon destroy results.

Thunderfire cannon - techmarine can help sit on an objective and boost the cover to his battle brothers. T7, 4 blasts and can ignore cover or mess with skimmers. The s6 blast helps with tougher things and can glance weak transports. Just remember to place the marine BEHIND the gun or you risk losing it to mass fire.

So you can tell from the list I have forward elements, disruption elements, capture objectives, target saturation, a variety of units so no opponent can call cheese and with combat tactics I can pull back after the enemy assault phase and shoot them up point blank. At least I find it better to be assaulted and run then to engage in assault itself. Unless it's necrons, or orks. I believe math says the ork needs twice as many bodies to bring down marines and then it comes down to volume of fire before they can get to you. I can place the libby with the RB and combat squad or put him in the DP with the melta squad for added strength.

Also, I usually roll on Strategic warlord traits or personal for some FNP/scoring fun.

My builds for assault squads are always cheaper and built to sort of annoy an opponent. I run 7 or 8 AM's with a Flamer, and Psword/SS sergeant. This squad is small enough to take full advantage of cover while still being able to take a few casualties before becoming ineffective. They then hop around the board as a non serious threat. Most of the time they don't even get shot till they are extremely close as I make sure there are bigger targets that need to be dealt with. And if they do get killed its cool because at that point my vindicators or terminators are on top of you waiting to smash the opponent. They are also surprisingly good at crushing tanks now that they have grenades hitting on 3's at worst.

When I've run devs it's always been at full str with missiles or plas and 1 lascannon. This way you can combat squad them and fire on 2 targets or focus 1 target down. And you also have a few ablative wounds for soaking up fire. I know it's expensive but when I run them as 5 man units they die too quickly.

How do you guys equip your tacticals squads that are moving forward to midfield/taking your opponents objectives? I know our tacticals are not the best in CC compared to the other MEQ troop choices... (Assault squads, GHs, GKSS, DA Termies, etc.) We don't really want to get into CC with those other MEQ equivalent troop choices.

For now I'm doing:
10x Tacticals: MM, MG, C-MG, Rhino

I deploy out the MG/C-MG half out and move forward shooting AV until I need to clear objectives then I fire on them with the same squad. Guys inside the Rhino act as a turret usually.


Since you have to move into midfield and your opponents DZ to take objectives I feel we need allies that are better at this to compete. Bolter fire +1 Special isn't going to shoot as much off as we'd want to remove them. It'll help with one of our weaknesses of having our troops not so stellar in CC as well as other weaknesses in our Codex. Like a Rune Priest helping with anti-Psyker powers and a BA Libby providing us with a 5+ cover across our vehicles.

My melta bomb tactical is melta, MM, C-melta, serg with melta bombs. My "normal" tacticals are usually just melta/plasma, ML/plasma, melta bombs, power sword. I try to have some semblance of duality and such with these squads because without they're fairly useless. And you never know when that lone melta in a tac squad is going to ruin a tank that's pushing hard at you.

Ya..but I still think we need allies to jump on to whatever our opponents have in their DZ. Don't you guys think? What do you normally do to contest or take your opp. objectives? I've been thinking of a footsquad of Assault all TH/SS termies just to march forward, absorb fire, and get into CC to contest something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe a foot squad of 10? And I can combat squad them as needed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to "build around" my Terminators... what are good support models for them?

Rhino rush a squad or two for taking objectives, turbo boost bikes, deepstrike Assault Marines, Terminators, or Drop Pod in some Sternguard or an Ironclad Dreadnaught. These all tend to be decent backfield contesting strategies. You certainly don't have to ally another army to do this!

 evildrspock wrote:
Rhino rush a squad or two for taking objectives, turbo boost bikes, deepstrike Assault Marines, Terminators, or Drop Pod in some Sternguard or an Ironclad Dreadnaught. These all tend to be decent backfield contesting strategies. You certainly don't have to ally another army to do this!

Yay for the Terminator answer! Been wanting to use some TH/SS Terminators for running up to my opponents backfield and contesting/clearing objectives. And taking care of high AV/MCs on the way. Was talking to some guys about this yesterday and never really thought of just running them on foot until they brought it up. I'm so use to thinking that LRs were a "must have" for any Assault Terminators. I think this would be an awesome idea though just to have as a sponge for fire as well as all the other things Assault Termies bring.

syypher wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
Rhino rush a squad or two for taking objectives, turbo boost bikes, deepstrike Assault Marines, Terminators, or Drop Pod in some Sternguard or an Ironclad Dreadnaught. These all tend to be decent backfield contesting strategies. You certainly don't have to ally another army to do this!

Yay for the Terminator answer! Been wanting to use some TH/SS Terminators for running up to my opponents backfield and contesting/clearing objectives. And taking care of high AV/MCs on the way. Was talking to some guys about this yesterday and never really thought of just running them on foot until they brought it up. I'm so use to thinking that LRs were a "must have" for any Assault Terminators. I think this would be an awesome idea though just to have as a sponge for fire as well as all the other things Assault Termies bring.

All good until a PC shot does away with most of the squad. Should probably have some armor protecting them, or just deep strike them in. Not as risky, especially if you want to draw alot of fire. That what land raiders are for, and why they have AV14 all around.

***Deepstrike***
I really think one or two Terminator Squads, with a Heavy Flamer or Assault Cannon, can be a good, relatively inexpensive backfield deepstriker. Probably best not to leave them alone, although they are enough of a fear/threat to most opponents it can draw considerable forces from where they really should be focusing - the rest of your army advancing forward. Land Raiders are nice for having them on the board, but kind of unnecessary @ 250 points, I'd rather just have more terminators to soak hits. I mean, that's what 2+/5++ is for, or even 2+/3++.

Alternatively, walking a 10 man squad with 2 cyclone missile launchers has great anti infantry or anti light vehicle capability, and draw tons of fire from the rest of the army. Its not a bad tactic to build an entire army around, especially if you throw a nice force multiplier in there like Captain Lysander to soak hits and give bolter drill.

quick question: what is better for assault marines/ terminators, a Land raider redeemer or crusader? (not counting transport capacity)

I did a search and found several threads about the Stormtalon and the impression I get is that it's average in what it does.

I want to like it and I only have one game with them.

I run bikers and I replaced 2 units of 3 Multi-Melta bikers to get 2 Stormtalons into my lists at the 1500 level.
My first game with them, they didn't do a whole lot... but mostly because of my poor target selection.

My first talon comes in and shoots at Obliterators. I didn't get any rends, but I get a lucky wound.
Second round, second talon comes in and shoots the Obliterators again to no avail, the other Talon kills some Cultists. Then one Talon flies off the board (setting up to come back in on turn 5) while the other kills some cultists (who are on an objective) again.

I think the flier rules are cool and able to fly off the board to set up a new strafing run is great.
The positioning does take some thought beforehand...but I guess my main gripe is... I'm not a huge Assault Cannon fan.

I have the Talons in a sort of anti-flyer role, maybe I'm over reacting. What do you guys think?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
quick question: what is better for assault marines/ terminators, a Land raider redeemer or crusader? (not counting transport capacity)

Crusader doesn't get as close to the enemy in order to be effective, which takes the melta rule out of the equation, and you can still assault with either unit. Redeemers w/ their flamers can get close enough for a suicide melta to take it out, which would waste the investment and points put into it. Both of the sponson weapons are effective against hordes(take your pick: 3 TL bolters per sponson, or a big heavy flamer per sponson), so it depends on if you want to get close, or really close(maybe too close).

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
quick question: what is better for assault marines/ terminators, a Land raider redeemer or crusader? (not counting transport capacity)

Honestly, if I could go back in time and change the weapons on my Crusader, i'd make it a redeemer in a heartbeat.

two S6 AP3 Flamers? Count me in. Move 6", PotM spirit two different targets with flamers. Snapfire the Assault Cannon at whatever your primary target was.

Hurricane Bolters are garbage now that they got rid of Defensive Weapons being able to fire as much as you want.

EDIT: And for the same points as a Crusader, you can put a Multi Melta on top.

I played about 40ish games of 40k with a redeemer in my army. I got to fire both templates at the same time twice(once it hit 2 whole models, the other it annihalated 12 marines total from 2 different squads)... I'd rather move 12" and fire an assault cannon, and then snap fire everything else. Or move 6", disembark 7 termies and a libby or lysander 6", and fire everything.

Statistically speaking the chances of firing both at viable targets is low I would think. Where as the crusader is always dumping wounds from 24" and under(not including movement). I will say though, hitting 8 marines that just had their transport blow up is fun haha.