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So the allies discussion is an interesting one and one I'd like to go more into....

From prior posts, our two main areas of concern are AA and CC. Not everyone is going to be able to access FW easily (or have tournaments nearby that accept it) so I'd like to focus on the allies suggestion.

Previously GK and IG were mentioned, but these both tend to be shooty armies (GK can be CC focused as well, but with the allied detachment you are limited in what you can fill in with).

I've been pondering Blood Angels myself. You still get the Storm Raven, assaulty troops, and better yet, they're Blood Brothers. Any other thoughts on this?

@nobody:

I've been struggling with this for a while. There are many ways to deal with 1 and not the other as far as our weakness is concerned. Being able to FULLY nullify our weaknesses (since we have 2 primary ones) is going to be an uphill battle and one not worth sinking too many points into.

Honestly, the reason I suggest IG and GK (I believe you were referring to my post) is because of the anti-flyer capabilities.

IG: Vendetta, Cheap AC Spam, Hydra
GK: Psyrifle Dread, PsyC shot as Heavy4 Snapfire, Decent Stormraven at weight of S6/7 fire into flyers that can double as great anti-light AV or anti-infantry

The reason I suggest these that also tend to be shooty armies is because they assist in dealing with our weakness of anti-air as well as complement our strength of shooting. When I weight what weaknesses in CC and AA we have it is MUCH easier to deal with our weakness in CC without having to specifically tailor our lists/allies choice to compensate.

Dealing with CC is a whole new ball of wax that can easily be mitigated by a couple different tactics that do not change our list drastically and has always been available to us naturally and even more so now with allies:
1) Shoot the dedicated CC unit even more. GK and IG bringing even more shooting assist with this
2) Throw cheap units in the way/bubble wrap. IG help a lot with this and so does GK if you want to take a squad of Acos that your Inq give you to use as a punching bag.
3) Rhinos are still almost a staple in our list. Especially now that combat squadding has drastically helped Codex SM. Once you've unloaded, use it to block and deter the enemy for a turn or 2.

Now for air...it's almost impossible to deploy tactics in our standard lists without actually having to "build" for them in our lists. (Like those units I listed above that IG/GK bring.)


I like BA because of their SR and their fast JP Assault Squads could work out well. However I think GK and IG complement us better.

@syypher

Oh I'm not disagreeing those are good choices...not by a long shot.

My only real concern is that they aren't Battle Brothers, which I'd prefer to use (in case folks are wondering, no, Tau is not on the table, my current FLGS has a rule in effect that Tau and SM battle brothers make no sense so they are Allies of Convenience instead).

In any event, the army I take as my allied list would most likely be another SM chapter (DA, BA, BT), of which, BT is in dire need of an update, DA is getting one soon (and doesn't really fill either hole...yet), and BA solves one problem while giving lip service to the other.

Oh so it has to be BB? Hmm..

BA work well too. Like I said their SR is best in class. I'm not sure what to take as troops though as our CC weakness is better mitigated by strengthening what were already good at (shooting) than dishing points into 1-2 semi-good CC units. So Assault Squads with JPs may be a bit awkward.

Space marines are indeed BB with IG

Thus IG become the best option, for reasons mentioned above.

1. The vendetta
2. The platoon, great way to get up to 6 more troops choices. There was 1 GK/IG tournament winner recently that was just acolytes, strike squads and a platoon. Didnt really worry about AA much, just had more troops than the opponent could handle.


I would agree that BA are our best second choice option, mostly because of the sang priests.

1. A good list would be BA libby, sang priest and 10 man assault squad. Good for deep strike, very survivable, good in CC. Death company are also great (though their inability to score limits their usefulness), and a dropped furiso is a fantastic option. Deftinitely a good option but would end up being a lot of points for us, so, we lose a lot of firepower as a result. Defdinitely hurts on the AA front buuut that'd be what 40 meqs 10 with FNP? it might not matter at that point. So that's pretty solid


GK are less of a good option (though they are still 3rd) because they're... just better than us anyways. We dont really gain much by allying with them because while strike squads are better in CC... they still dont have many attacks, and the number of attacks, in the end, is what matters for quality of CC. That and surviability in CC. They're good in comparison to tacs, they just dont fill a void really. Think of it this way

475 points gets you

coteaz
10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons
rifelman dread

for us that's 425 (with termi armor on the libby) for the same thing. Sure theirs is better since coteaz is mastery 2 and all those shots are a point higher, but as an ally we dont need another (slightly better) set of toys we already ahve and are most likely using, we need unique toys we cant get that blow us out of the water. And any of the other GK toys are even MORE of a sunk cost. Granted we could just sneak in there with some acolytes to get acess to the fun stuff.. but then ur limiting coteax to being toughness 3, so his survivable goes down the drain. and 1 3 man acolyte squad with accompanying psyback aint much on its' own. It'd be farrrr better to do GK/SM instead and just pay to get a 10 man tac, libby and TFC. But then for GK Ig is the best option, as it is for us.


As for that land raider with 10 man ASM? not bad but 1: i didnt think they could go in a LR and if so they are at least unwiedly, so you'd need the one with capacity 22? 2: as mentioned, BA ASM are.. waayy better. Just do that instead

Ahh, for some reason I had it in my head that IG were only AoC to SM, this changes things.

Doesn't really help the lack of CC troops, but the Valks easily help with AA and a platoon gives a hefty chunk of scoring units.

nobody wrote:
Ahh, for some reason I had it in my head that IG were only AoC to SM, this changes things.

Doesn't really help the lack of CC troops, but the Valks easily help with AA and a platoon gives a hefty chunk of scoring units.

Many ways to deal with dedicated CC troops w/o needing your own. Hence the proposal of those armies

Anyways, in order to deal with a real threatening dedicated CC troop BA Jumpers would not even stand a real chance. Ignore them, block them, bubble wrap, tarpit them instead and just focus on everything else. It's kind of too much too to ask for our codex to be good at EVERYTHING. ;P

Yep pretty much. I'm just not a fan of the IG models.. sooo i go FW instead. Mortis contemptors just look so awesome!

I plan on playing vanilla marines as my main army and I have enjoyed this thread. I plan on contributing alot to it as my knowledge grows.

I would like to begain with a very important topic combi weapons on tactical sergs. I think this 10 point upgrade makes tactical marines a threat, what do you guys think?

 CKO wrote:
I plan on playing vanilla marines as my main army and I have enjoyed this thread. I plan on contributing alot to it as my knowledge grows.

I would like to begain with a very important topic combi weapons on tactical sergs. I think this 10 point upgrade makes tactical marines a threat, what do you guys think?

Some people swear by them, but I (and a few others around here) run my sergeants as BP/CCW for the extra attack in Close Combat (That's also free!), since, I can spend 20 - 30 points elsewhere and probably better.

Crazyterran wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I plan on playing vanilla marines as my main army and I have enjoyed this thread. I plan on contributing alot to it as my knowledge grows.

I would like to begain with a very important topic combi weapons on tactical sergs. I think this 10 point upgrade makes tactical marines a threat, what do you guys think?

Some people swear by them, but I (and a few others around here) run my sergeants as BP/CCW for the extra attack in Close Combat (That's also free!), since, I can spend 20 - 30 points elsewhere and probably better.

I would want to waste those points on the sergent either, besides, hes got to be equipped for the occasional challenge too. Combi-weapons are better served on units that are in situations where they need only one shooting phase to deal horrific damage, which those are sternguards. They can also use their special ammunition if they aren't hunting tanks, TEQs and hordes.

syypher wrote:

nobody wrote:
Ahh, for some reason I had it in my head that IG were only AoC to SM, this changes things.

Doesn't really help the lack of CC troops, but the Valks easily help with AA and a platoon gives a hefty chunk of scoring units.

Many ways to deal with dedicated CC troops w/o needing your own. Hence the proposal of those armies

Anyways, in order to deal with a real threatening dedicated CC troop BA Jumpers would not even stand a real chance. Ignore them, block them, bubble wrap, tarpit them instead and just focus on everything else. It's kind of too much too to ask for our codex to be good at EVERYTHING. ;P

Too true. In general, when I played 40k back in 3rd and 4th, my tactical squads were shooty against assault based armies (chaos, nids, orks) and assaulted shooty armies (tau, guard, necrons) and were effective enough at it that the application of extra firepower (dev squads, vindicators) or a CC unit (assault marines) could quickly tip the scales.

The shift with 6th seems to be that tac squads want to go shooty 100%, and what was decent at assault previously is generally now either a bad idea (Dreads vs grenades) or lost enough effectiveness to fall well behind other assault units (LC terminators going to AP3, Assault Marines no longer able to hide the PF due to challenges) and become just tarpits.

 CKO wrote:
I plan on playing vanilla marines as my main army and I have enjoyed this thread. I plan on contributing alot to it as my knowledge grows.

I would like to begain with a very important topic combi weapons on tactical sergs. I think this 10 point upgrade makes tactical marines a threat, what do you guys think?

I'm in the other camp from the other 2 posts above me.

I agree with some of what they say though. The Sgt. is there to mostly suck up wounds for challenges in my list. Let's all agree that Tactical Squads ARE still marine statlines but they are hardly equipped to get into CC. I sometimes, but rarely think "oh let me charge that unit with my Tactical Squad." I much rather be firing the bolters or using my special weapons. When I do get charged, if it's unfavorable, I use the Sgt. to eat wounds and then attempt to disengage.

I always give him a combi-weapon so he can contribute while I'm moving up the field. This gives my combat squad PG/C-PG or MG/C-MG for duality purposes. More chances of achieving what I want. (Melting vehicles or stripping saves) His combi-weapon is usually gone by the time I sacrifice him in a challenge.

Also, BP/CC Sgt. is hardly being "equipped for CC." He's still not a beast and anything charge his squad will 80% of the time tear him up. Yes the Sgt. will be better equipped in CC than if he had a combi-weapon but hardly. 1 attack won't contribute as much to the overall scheme of things than another PG or MG for a turn. Remember that Tacticals are primarily there to shoot things down, not get into CC. (usually)

10 points is too much for a combi for the sarg for me. Otherwise id get it.

The only time I use combi-weapons on tac squads when the sarge has a power fist. Otherwise, I stick with bolt pistol and power sword.

melta bombs are more point efficent than a power sword...

read my earlier post about (3-4 pages back?) but TLR the power sword is a 15 point upgrade for a guy who must be the first to die against anything nasty in CC and useless against any swarm. Thus... pointless.

Go naked, get more bolter shots, spend those 15 points elsewhere

I forgot to mention that I also run melta bombs on my sargents. I think that the sword is actually a good investment, because, while you are not going to kill any dedicated CC unit, it gives an extra 1-2 kills on meq, giving you a boost when charging is actually the best action.

I'm gonna take part in a small tournament with three friends in a couple of weeks. I am seriously thinking about doing an all foot list with my Blood Ravens.

It would look something like this:

HQ
- librarian with gate and maybe null zone

Elites
- 8xSternsguard, 2x combi-melta and 2x combi-flamer
- 5xTerminators, ass-cannon
- 5xTerminators, heavy flamer

Troops
- Tacs LC, PG
- Tacs MM, MG
- Scouts, SR, Telion

Heavy Support
- TFC

Fortifications
- ADL with Icarus

Comes to about 1500 points.

I might face basically any army except necrons and SoB. The list sounds fun so I wanna try it, but do you guys think I will get tabled?

 Bonesnapper wrote:
I'm gonna take part in a small tournament with three friends in a couple of weeks. I am seriously thinking about doing an all foot list with my Blood Ravens.

It would look something like this:

HQ
- librarian with gate and maybe null zone

Elites
- 8xSternsguard, 2x combi-melta and 2x combi-flamer
- 5xTerminators, ass-cannon
- 5xTerminators, heavy flamer

Troops
- Tacs LC, PG
- Tacs MM, MG
- Scouts, SR, Telion

Heavy Support
- TFC

Fortifications
- ADL with Icarus

Comes to about 1500 points.

I might face basically any army except necrons and SoB. The list sounds fun so I wanna try it, but do you guys think I will get tabled?

Ass-cannon. Legend.... The ultrasmurfs equip the best of the best with ass-cannons

I'll have to admit, after finding out that IG are BB to SM, I've been toying with lists with 3 vendettas now. Problem being the ally tax helping to prevent getting toys on the Marine side at 1500 pts.

I'm tempted, if I go this route, of dropping Vulkan and going vanilla SM with a Librarian instead since I really won't have that many meltas/flamers.

@nobody: 3x vendettas in a squadron? If your REALLY wanting to do that...make IG your main and SM your allies...Otherwise, just use 1x Vendetta. If you just can't part with having any less than 2 and NEED SM as your primary then only do 2 MAX. 2x Vendettas will kill whatever you point them at the same as 3x Vendettas haha I prefer 1x if they are your allied detachment.

Ally tax is negligible because it actually brings something VERY good to the table. I primarily play IG main now and SM or GK allies but when I tested SM, I never had issues making IG my allies. My CCS now with IG main is 4x PGs because I prefer them farther back now, but as an allied attachment, they become a very nice and very effective suicide melta squad.

Use this as your HQ for IG allies if your going mech/hybrid oriented:
Company Command Squad
3-4x Meltaguns
Krak Grenades
Chimera (Multi-laser/Hull HF)

Hardly a "tax" since they offer a lot of something you'd get from a non-scoring section of your SM Codex anyways. (MG Sternguard)


Smart choice on switching your HQ to Lib if you go that route.

syypher wrote:
@nobody: 3x vendettas in a squadron? If your REALLY wanting to do that...make IG your main and SM your allies...Otherwise, just use 1x Vendetta. If you just can't part with having any less than 2 and NEED SM as your primary then only do 2 MAX. 2x Vendettas will kill whatever you point them at the same as 3x Vendettas haha I prefer 1x if they are your allied detachment.

Ally tax is negligible because it actually brings something VERY good to the table. I primarily play IG main now and SM or GK allies but when I tested SM, I never had issues making IG my allies. My CCS now with IG main is 4x PGs because I prefer them farther back now, but as an allied attachment, they become a very nice and very effective suicide melta squad.

Use this as your HQ for IG allies if your going mech/hybrid oriented:
Company Command Squad
3-4x Meltaguns
Krak Grenades
Chimera (Multi-laser/Hull HF)

Hardly a "tax" since they offer a lot of something you'd get from a non-scoring section of your SM Codex anyways. (MG Sternguard)


Smart choice on switching your HQ to Lib if you go that route.

Excellent thank you, and in case you were wondering, the word 'overkill' isn't in my dictionary hence why I was using the squadroned Vendettas (since you can only have one FA choice).

It's likely that they'd be foot (the guard would be the anchor force, the marines would be mech to help apply force where needed), so the CCS I was planning on would be pretty much naked except maybe a HWS (or possibly go with quad flamers...that part was up in the air at this point).

Here's one of my regular lists when I did SM/IG: (Cut down to 1500 pts for ya)

Imperial Guard 5th Ed (2009) (Allied Detachment) Selections:
HQ
Company Command Squad
Krak Grenades, 3x Meltagun
Chimera
Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser

Troops
Infantry Platoon (Keep the IS blob together with Comissar)
Infantry Squad
Autocannon, Sergeant
Infantry Squad
Autocannon, Sergeant
Infantry Squad
Autocannon, Commissar, Sergeant

Platoon Command Squad
3x Flamer, Platoon Commander
Chimera
Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser

Fast Attack
Vendetta
3 Twin-linked Lascannons


Space Marines 5th Ed (2008) (Standard) Selections:
HQ
Librarian
And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Psyker
Null Zone, Power Armour, The Gate of Infinity

Elites
Dreadnought
Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon
Dreadnought
Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

Troops
Tactical Squad
Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, Rhino, 9x Space Marine
Space Marine Sergeant
Combi-Plasma

Tactical Squad
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino, 9x Space Marine
Space Marine Sergeant
Combi-Melta

Heavy Support
Predator
Autocannon, Lascannons

Thanks, looks like I was on a similar path (more vendettas, less dreads...I'm not liking walking dreads so far in 6th), that'll give me a good starting point.

*doh* you could actually remove the Comissar for 35 pts to play with if you want to attach the Librarian to the IS blob to give it the ATSKNF rule.

Give it the Gate power in the SM codex and you can teleport your 30 man blob for objecting shenanigans lolol

Anyways GL. I love dreads It's what drew me to Codex SM in the first place. 6 of them!!!

I used to love dreads too, then I started falling out of love with 6th ed rules. I could see for GK with psyrifleman dreads, but with SM I'd be hard pressed to justify not going to an ironclad in drop pod if I wanted to have a walker.

SM dakka dreads are still decent just... shouldnt be your first choice.They'll do in a pinch but autocannon shots have definitely gotten weaker (along with krak). The problem is cracking anything >AV 11 is tougher because of the new pen results.

Your best options for dreads now are FW ones,

Mortis Contemptor with Kheres assault cannon: 12 bs5 ass-cannon shots (with skyfire and interceptor if he stays still) is a lot of pain. It's a pretty beefy shotgun

Seige dreads - also amazing, good to drop.

Otherwise dreads are less than useful, still fun to play, but the problem is if you want heavy weapons like lascannons.. its cheaper to put it on a pred, and you really dont want them in CC anymore unless they are av13 at least with some extra armrour or something to make them last a bit longer.

Yeah an IG blob is a weighty amount of scoring power, with decent shooting. Put that behind and ADl and take cover allll day long. It's good stuff.

I like the idea of combi-flamers on your tactical squads to give them that D3 flamer protection from the charge.

yesss but it's still 10 points for it. So im still.. ambivalent, especially since you get a flamer for free anyways.

Think of it this way, would you rather have those flamer hits orrr an HK missile?

On the one hand the HK could whiff, buton the other it's a frak shot at unlimited range, could take out a key transport/dread/etc.

Meanwhile those d3 hits average to 2 hits which averages to 1 wound against any MEQ opponent... not sure that's worth the 10. And if you want to use it as a flamer then the guy has to be close to the front to get his shot off (since the template cant hit ur own guys), which means he's more likely to get picked off by shooting (and we reaallly dont want to lose our sarge to shooting, given his +1 LD and we need him to die for us in CC).


Given that HKs arnt really in use right now, an that id rather have an HK than a combi-flamer shot... i still dont think it's a good use of 10 points.

Give 2 to sternguard in a pod instead

I love combi - flamers/meltas on sergs, they double the power of your tact squad. I often combat squad leaving a lascannon in a fortification while moving a razorback with a flamer and combi-flamer inside. Yes you only get one shot but most of the time it is one vehicle that you want to destroy, or one blob unit that needs to be taken out. For ten points you get double the amount of flamer hits which is good in this IG blob age that we live in. No it doesnt make the tact squad amazing but they do become above average and atleast a minor threat, especially if you factor in Vulkan re-rolls.