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I think the title says it all. After a LONG break from warhammer (my last and only army is of tzeentchian Hordes of chaos) i was interestedin coming back, but i found my army divided in three books.
Are Tzeentch warriors of vhaos hard to play/best magicians? Which army has the best mages and the most powerful magic phase? Both in buffing, cursing, or raw damage dealing,

Skaven and High Elfs/Dark Elfs seem to be best in magic phase.

High elves,Dark elves and Lizardmen have the best magic phase.

Okay, thanks people!

Herdstone Beastmen are very strong in the magic phase, on average you roll a 7 for winds of magic, then with 3 shaman parked around the herdstone you get an extra die for each one pre channeling, add a Level 4 in there and with channeling you are looking at 11 maybe 12 max out every magic phase, plus that GBS who not only is a level 4 but a killing machine especially in a unit of gor with a beast banner BSB, give him a cheaper then chips jagged dagger and every kill he makes he can convert to a power dice. No other army can field a 50 point item that guarantees 3+ power dice per turn. Plus Beastmen were the last 7th edition book, built with 8th in mind obviously with their Ld based primal fury test and the BSB stand your ground rule, however they benefit from having more then 2 pages of maybe 10 magic items, they also benefit from not having mandatory 10pt each unit command.

I'd also add Demons of Chaos to the list of strong magic-users. You've got access to all of the lores, and cheap Loremasters with Tzeentch heralds, as well as 3 very respectable lores specific to Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

Agreed on DoC, lets not forget a nod to TK too, Casket +d3 power dice per phase as well as a great bound spell and with Heirotitan with their bound spells and their +d3 casting values to nearby wizards.

TK are good at casting their own magic. And they need to to keep their army above par. So that also limits them casting other stuff, which they have less access to.

HE have some of the most bonuses to casting in the game.

Lizardmen have arguably the best lord caster in Slann.

DoC have access to cheap loremasters, but they don't have many means of getting extra power dice or bonuses to cast or even dispel scrolls since they are blowing their points being loremasters. Their casters are going to be all lvl 2 unless you buy an insanely expensive Lord. Only special character Khairos makes them really top tier magic and he's 625 points.

WoC are good at magic. They have a lot of items and gifts they can give their casters.

I don't know DE rules. But for my money, for 2K ish point games, I'd say HE and Lizardmen are the winners. They can build their armies around casters and can't be easily shut down completely.

Lizzys fo magic mate, erday.

DukeRustfield wrote:

I don't know DE rules.

DE casters can take fire, shadow, dark, and metal, and aren't limited to the number of casting dice they use per spell, and can kill a dude for an extra power dice. Not to mention the focus familiar which gives the mage an extra 6" range for casting. They are on par with HE/Lizards

Thank you all guys for all the info. I'll definetly look at Chaos, High Elves and Lizardmen. Maybe also dark elves, but i dont really like their models. I never actually looked at beastmen, and they seem to have very cool mages, but i hate the models.

What about Vampire Counts, are they magically powerful? And Tomb Kings?

its all lies! Night goblin shamans all the way!

Ha HA HA Night Goblins are definitly the best, but close second is probably LM DE or HE

For my DOC I tend to run 4 level 2's at 2400. Two loremasters Typically Life as my bsb, and Metal/heavens(taking shadow in conjuction with life feels pretty douchey) then a lvl 2 bunker of horrors with FC and a lvl2 GUO.

Meriados wrote:
What about Vampire Counts, are they magically powerful?

Vampire Counts aren't that great in the magic phase - they only have one unique magic item to help with power/dispel dice (the Black Periapt), and not only is it expensive but you also have to have dice left over from any given phase to make it useful (it doesn't just give extra dice, or numerical bonuses, or anything). They have a couple of bound spells in magic items, but that doesn't really help them dominate the phase much. They only have access to 3 lores (Vampires and Shadow on Necromancers plus Death on Vampires) and a Vampire power that allows access to any lore except Life, but that takes up precious points from the Vampire powers that are usually better spent elsewhere. Lastly, there is a VERY expensive Vampire power that lets you reroll one of the Winds of Magic dice each phase (on your turn), but it is SO EXPENSIVE. The only Loremasters are special characters (and, like all special characters, are too expensive for what you're getting). Lastly, compared to other lores, the Lore of Vampires is not that great and you almost HAVE to use it to succeed with the army.

The one thing that I would probably say that they have going for them is that their level 1/2 necromancers are cheap, which means you can load up on them and that gives you a lot of channeling dice which helps decresae the gap between your dispel dice and your opponent's power dice, or widen the gap during your own turn. Also, all Vampires are also casters, so every time you take one for combat purposes, you also get a low level, strong and durable caster who can wear armor and who adds dice to your channeling attempts. Those two things are probably the only benefits.

Lizards and DE are the kings of the magic phase, without question. Those are two armies that can actually count on getting the magic they want, when they want it. Other armies can be strong, but nowhere near as risk free or consistant.

As for which army is hardest to use, DE are hard to master, but nigh unbeatable when you do. Wood Elves are probably the hardest to use. They suck less than Tomb Kings, but are very unforgiving of mistakes.

Empire magic ftw! Access to all lores of magic as well as being able to spam wizards if needed (I.e. a level 4 and 6 level 1's)

I hear Skaven are pretty unforgiving to play, and that if you have Venerable Lord Croak in a Lizardmen army, your magic will pretty much destroy everything on the board so long as you manage to keep him alive.

Kroak is a 1 trick, literally, pony. He has 1 spell. There are a handful of abilities and opponents in the game that can steal and/or destroy a spell. If you face one and lose your spell, Kroak becomes a big fat turd.

I see there are different views on some armies, like Lizzy, DE/HE.

I have the books right in front of me, and i don't understand why DE should be so powerful in the magic phase.

Lizardmen can overpower the dispel dice pool of the enemy having 1 dice more per spell, knowing all the spells in a lore, and don't have any resiliency problem being hidden in one of the hardest units in the game, and i understand why they are powerful.

High Elves have BUTTLOAD of things, Can have 3 spells lvl 2, can choose spells instead of rolling, can know the whole lore, and have one of the most STUPIDLY fething slowed item/ability in the game (Book of Hoeth/Teclis), also quite a bit of extra dices, with Banner of Sorcery and Teclis

Dark Elves look a bit luckluster, okay they have a great lore, every mage can use that spell that gives more powerdices, and the level 4 is probably invincible with that DUMB amulet (really?? 2++ against S5+???) and can kill some men of her unit to get powerdices, but they don't have most lores, don't have any strange mechanic to help them cast the spells, and can't avoid miscasts. What am i missing??

Meriados wrote:
I see there are different views on some armies, like Lizzy, DE/HE.

I have the books right in front of me, and i don't understand why DE should be so powerful in the magic phase.

Lizardmen can overpower the dispel dice pool of the enemy having 1 dice more per spell, knowing all the spells in a lore, and don't have any resiliency problem being hidden in one of the hardest units in the game, and i understand why they are powerful.

High Elves have BUTTLOAD of things, Can have 3 spells lvl 2, can choose spells instead of rolling, can know the whole lore, and have one of the most STUPIDLY fething slowed item/ability in the game (Book of Hoeth/Teclis), also quite a bit of extra dices, with Banner of Sorcery and Teclis

Dark Elves look a bit luckluster, okay they have a great lore, every mage can use that spell that gives more powerdices, and the level 4 is probably invincible with that DUMB amulet (really?? 2++ against S5+???) and can kill some men of her unit to get powerdices, but they don't have most lores, don't have any strange mechanic to help them cast the spells, and can't avoid miscasts. What am i missing??

DEs are not limited to 6 dice on the cast. 12 Dice mindrazor is scary.

 Jubear wrote:

Meriados wrote:
I see there are different views on some armies, like Lizzy, DE/HE.

I have the books right in front of me, and i don't understand why DE should be so powerful in the magic phase.

Lizardmen can overpower the dispel dice pool of the enemy having 1 dice more per spell, knowing all the spells in a lore, and don't have any resiliency problem being hidden in one of the hardest units in the game, and i understand why they are powerful.

High Elves have BUTTLOAD of things, Can have 3 spells lvl 2, can choose spells instead of rolling, can know the whole lore, and have one of the most STUPIDLY fething slowed item/ability in the game (Book of Hoeth/Teclis), also quite a bit of extra dices, with Banner of Sorcery and Teclis

Dark Elves look a bit luckluster, okay they have a great lore, every mage can use that spell that gives more powerdices, and the level 4 is probably invincible with that DUMB amulet (really?? 2++ against S5+???) and can kill some men of her unit to get powerdices, but they don't have most lores, don't have any strange mechanic to help them cast the spells, and can't avoid miscasts. What am i missing??

DEs are not limited to 6 dice on the cast. 12 Dice mindrazor is scary.

I understand that 12 dice mindrazor is scary, but howcan they reach 12 dices costantly? Also rolling 12 dices is asking for miscasts, and with no protection that could mean a very dead sorceress.

The DE does not really need to throw 12 dice at mindrazor. The way the magic phase power dice are rolled means the the DEs will normally have more dice (plus free a die from the dagger) so they just roll all there dice and odds are they will get the spell thru.

IMO its quite difficult to win with orcs, if you play really well you can still be out-rolled or plain unlucky with animosity results. Orcs do have a really unique magic phase too.

I'd argue Orcs & Goblins are one of the harder to use armies, since as mentioned above Animosity can really botch a number of battleplans. With Orcs it's not improbable to have to change your battle plan every other turn even if your opponent does everything according to your last plan (ex: Your Goblins preparing to set up a flank charge for next turn suddenly decide "Feth that gak, we're going to declare a charge on someone 13" away, make it, and suddenly have a Khorne Marauder unit in YOUR flank instead of the other way around").

Similarly, Orcs & Goblins are an army very short on re-roll potential (no Hatred on anyone but a handful of characters, one of their re-roll spells involving being in the enemy's flank or rear with a 12" range, the other a 2D6" bubble effecting Orcs only), and being only WS2 to WS4 for most of their troops this means against almost any other army w/ access to moderate-or-better WS they'll whiff with half of their attacks right off the bat.

This is not to say they're impossible to use, mind, nor that they have no functional builds. A ton of Night Goblins w/ Fanatics backed by War Machines, Magic, and Sneaky Tricks tend to be rather hard to defeat without sneaky tricks of your own. But more often than not, those last three things for OnG are what really have them win: War Machines, Magic, and Sneaky Tricks. Two of the biggest hurdles in getting them to work right are mitigating Animosity's impact / ability to botch your battle plans (either by having very fluid plans, redundancy, or so-on) and overcoming the misconception that they're an aggressive melee army. Reactive? Yes. Rush forward and punch someone's face in? Very, VERY rarely.