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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:18:21
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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I was playing an imperial guard player this weekend, when I attacked one his squads with a heavy weapons team in it he had to put a wound on it that would inflict instant death(double toughness) he claimed that since his were older models he could just remove one of the 2 models and that the weapon was still fine, what was the correct way to play it?
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:20:09
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Although the older models come with 2 separate Guardsmen, the HWT model is a single model and as such if it takes an ID wound, the whole HWT is removed, regardless of the number of individual Guardsmen involved.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:41:05
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Concur. Under the current rules it's a single model with two wounds, so a S6+ or other kind of Instant Death wound kills the whole thing.
Technically using the two old models without putting them on a single base isn't legal, because despite those being the bases they came with, under the current rules it's one model, not two. Many players are okay with allowing an IG player to use the old ones, but that flexibility and tolerance should immediately end if the IG player tries to use that as a way to gain game advantages or break the rules.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:44:32
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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I argued that the newer model was 2 wounds and 1 base so the instant death would remove the whole base, he seemed unhappy with this.
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:46:44
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Ask him to show where it is two individual models and that he is allowed to remove 1/2 of a HWT.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:48:44
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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That is basically what I did, I mentioned that the newer HWT was 1 base with 2 wounds(as are the stats in the codex) and that it would kill both models in this case as they should be treated as a single 2 wound model.
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:52:20
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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If they were my models I'd put them together on a single 60mm base. Failing to do that, he should be scrupulous about not taking advantage of opponents' generosity toward his laziness.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:53:37
Subject: Re:Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Jealous that Horus is Warmaster
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Show him this post to show he is in the minority
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Revilers 6,000pts
Dark Eldar 4,000pts
Cadian 229 regiment 3,000pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 15:56:00
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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I wouldn't show him the post unless your goal is to shame him. Ad Popularum is a fallacy, though it can be useful if a person really won't listen to reason. Simply showing that it's one model with two Wounds in the rules should be all the proof needed.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 16:15:14
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch
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Mannahnin wrote:If they were my models I'd put them together on a single 60mm base. Failing to do that, he should be scrupulous about not taking advantage of opponents' generosity toward his laziness.
Bit harsh suggesting it's laziness. I have older models that were bought on a joblot on ebay (I can't afford new models all the time) which have the 2 bases. It isn't illegal either, as the rulebook only states you must use the bases that the model came with. All older HWTs come with 2 bases. I haven't 'upgraded' them onto the new 60mm bases yet because I am not obliged to and it's not something I want to shell out for at the moment.
As long as you treat the 2 models as a single model for wounds and insta-death purposes it isn't in anyway shape or form illegal. But claiming that they are 2 models is and is a real douchebaggy thing to do (though at the same time if he is a new player I can understand the confusion).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/08 16:16:21
Thousand Sons CSM and Tzeentch Daemons : 2000pts
Imperial Guard Mixed Regiment: 2500pts
Deathwing/Ravenwing 2000pts (WIP)
Space Wolves: 1000pts (WIP)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 16:21:45
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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The problem is that there is no separate 2 model HWT anymore. It has been entirely replaced by a 1 model on a 60mm base.
Also, the whole 'base it came with' is not the same as it was in 5th edition.
Models and Base Sizes wrote:
The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using
models of a similar type as guidance.
For most of the old HWT, they actually fall under the 'models that aren't supplied with a base at all' since one of the dudes was sitting on a HW that did not come with a base ( ML are the exception to this generally and Mortars had 2 guys on bases and a mortar that was separate). So you should probably follow the last sentence which says to mount them appropriately.
For all my old Tallarn HWTs, I cut out appropriately sized plastic sheeting to make the base and rebased them with that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 16:29:50
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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To take a heavy weapon team in a squad, you replace 2 models with 1 model.
If you've got the older models on smaller bases you should either rebase them, or just run the weapon and not the loader.
You simply cannot replace 2 models with 2 models in the current IG list.
-Matt
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 18:05:49
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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FifteenHours wrote: Mannahnin wrote:If they were my models I'd put them together on a single 60mm base. Failing to do that, he should be scrupulous about not taking advantage of opponents' generosity toward his laziness.
Bit harsh suggesting it's laziness.
Maybe a bit, but not much. As Pretre explained, the rules currently don't permit or support keeping them separate. And it's an absurdly easy problem to fix. If you don't want to buy an official GW base, get or cut some 60mm circles from plastic sheeting, wood or cardboard, and just stick the old models on top. It's incredibly easy and quick to do.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 18:44:55
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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I'll admit it. I'm lazy. I do not "wish" to mount my RT era IG HW models on a large base. And I'm not required to. Now I do not put out a loader and a gunner, I put out the single model gunner and treat it as a two-wound model. So yeah, the OPs opponent was way in the wrong.
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/08 18:49:35
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Yup, you can legitimately just play with the one model instead, though I think that's a non-optimal and less attractive solution. Sticking them on the big base is easy and less likely to confuse newer players who haven't see the old RT ones or 2nd ed (even 3rd; thinking of Armageddon Steel Legion missile launchers) models on separate bases. Or even vets like me, when we're tired from a long day at the tournament.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 13:06:43
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Furious Fire Dragon
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If you or your opponent have IG with old models, agree BEFORE THE DICE ARE ROLLED how to treat HWTs. I suggest do everything from the guy with the weapon and just keep the other guy close to him and ignore him. If you want, use it as a wound counter.
Homer
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The only "hobby" GW is interested in is lining their pockets with your money.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:49:11
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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I had not played against guard before with models like that(only my second game against guard ever) so I honestly did not know what they were until the situation came up.
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 18:19:04
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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TheAvengingKnee wrote:I had not played against guard before with models like that(only my second game against guard ever) so I honestly did not know what they were until the situation came up.
That you can and should ping your opponent on. Given the age of my models, I run through them when I face a new opponent, point out the different heavy weapons, even some of the special weapons look different. The Over-the-Shoulder lascannons are the ones that most would mistake for something else.
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 18:22:52
Subject: Older IG Heavy weapons team?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Right, like mannahnin says, it doesn't matter how they're modeled, it matter what the rules say. The guard codex has rules for heavy weapons. Use those rules.
There is no such thing as a two-model heavy weapon team. For the purposes of playing a game now, it would be better to pretend there never were any rules for playing them this way.
If your opponent doesn't want to put the guys on a base, then fine, let him proxy it not on a base, but they're still single, two-wound models, and still suffer instant death.
If your opponent objects, have him show you where in the codex it says that it's two different models that are firing the weapon.
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