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Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

I'll actually further my commentary here:

I completely understand the viewpoint of anyone that refuses to back this company or this kickstarter. It's justified and reasonable.

However, I'm going to give this company as "2nd chance" as it were based on the fact that I DID receive all of my Banelegions/Meirce models following the Maelstrom fiasco.

The nice thing about Kickstarter is that if any information comes up that leads me to believe there is any duplicity within this 'new' venture, I can drop.

Would it be within the best interests of Mierce to absolve itself of any Rob Lane connection? Clearly. But so far I think they have been really cordial and forthcoming in the face of a lot of (well deserved) criticism. I think a bit more clarity on their organizational structure could help with their business transparency, but again, they don't owe that to a single person on a wargaming website...

What does encourage me, however, are things like:

1. Mierce/BaneLegions fulfilling all orders for their product associated with Maelstrom Orders

2. The incredibly quick turn around time for many of the pledge levels with this Kickstarter.

3. Their willingness to address comments both here and the KS.

With that in mind, I'd encourage anyone looking to back this KS to look at is like youre at a poker table. How much can you afford to lose? Which, honestly, is how any KS should be viewed.

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

Depends on the Credit Card Company really. Different companies (and different contract by the same company) offer different conditions.

But I did once claim back a two hundred GBP in hotel-costs through my CC when the hotel in question was playing dumb and non-cooperative. So I'd trust credit cards more than amazon or paypal by experience.

Since this will be running under UK law it's worth pointing out that you have NO credit card protection for purchaces under £100

For purchases £100+ the CC company is jointly liable so if you don't get your goods the CC company has to provide them or a refund.

This protection does extend to 'free gifts', so even if a pledge is not treated as a purchace you should still be covered

(T&C for foreign CCs may give you additional rights, but what I've stated above is the basic protection you'd get under UK law)

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I have to admit, I'd love to pledge, but Kickstarter, from what I can gather, offers less protection than eBay, PayPal and certainly your credit card company.

Too nervous about this one - staying on the sidelines...

That's my big concern. They're already answering questions on the Forums, so that's....encouraging.

Their communication has been rather good since the Maelstrom mess. I had a large ($300+) Darklands/Banelegions order outstanding from the Maelstrom clearance sale, and every email I sent was answered within 24 hours. They contacted me and indicated that my package wouldnt be able to be sent until after the first of the year, and it posted on 1/15/13. I'll post again when I receive it, but things at least SEEM to be running smoother than when they were Maelstrom. Hopefully a more limited focus, with their own product, will allow them to conduct business more responsibly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

grefven wrote:
I got a piece of the Maelstorm fire sales, and I got all that I bought from Mierce Miniatures a few months later. They've had excellent customer service in regards to me personally. Because of this I will put in an early pledge. Will it remain? Well, that will depend on the value of the KS in the end.

The quality of the miniatures are ace, and sculpted by the top people in the industry. Because of this alone I want them to succeed.

This exact thing happend with me. I did not receive the rest of the order from Malestrom.

Was it all Bane/Darklands stuff? If so, send them an email with the order number and see if you can get them to fulfill. I had to contact them about transferring my Maelstrom order to Mierce (stupid, since yes, they really are basically the same), but it did appear to get sorted out in the end. And if it doesnt, well, you could always pledge a dollar and post the story in the comment section and see if that doesnt expedite the customer service problem lol.

see im torn i really like the models and want to add to the ones i got afew years back , but im in two minds about it due to the history .

i think im going to sit on the fence untill i can see what im getting at the end of it and to see how the company handles themselves .

Free stuff at 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387844

Ways to get to 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387802

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

AFAIK, kickstarter doesn't offer any buyer protection either. It would be interesting to see if you could claim with a CC company in case of non delivery but I suspect not since it's not exactly a purchase agreement

Sining wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

AFAIK, kickstarter doesn't offer any buyer protection either. It would be interesting to see if you could claim with a CC company in case of non delivery but I suspect not since it's not exactly a purchase agreement

I'm pretty sure you could here in the UK as CC protection includes both goods and services (and if your pledge is not for goods, it's certainly for a 'service' ie doing what they say they will do leading to you getting goods). CC protection also covers 'free stuff' as in buy X and get Y free. If they deliver X but fold without giving you Y your CC company would have to provide it or appropriate cash compensation for you to buy an equivalent item yourself)..... As long as you'd spent £100+

In honor of their kickstarter I lit a $20 bill on fire. Figured it'd produce about the same result as backing.

yeah, because getting some miniatures is the same as burning money.. yeah right.

Guys, If you don't have ANYTHING to say outside of your ranting, please don't say anything at all.
There actually are some people who like/love the miniatures and have never ever had any problems with Mierce and/or are willing to leave the past behind.

A moderator also askes us to stay on topic. And the topic is the miniatures and the kickstarter.

RoninXiC wrote:


A moderator also askes us to stay on topic. And the topic is the miniatures and the kickstarter.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Sining wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

AFAIK, kickstarter doesn't offer any buyer protection either. It would be interesting to see if you could claim with a CC company in case of non delivery but I suspect not since it's not exactly a purchase agreement

I'm pretty sure you could here in the UK as CC protection includes both goods and services (and if your pledge is not for goods, it's certainly for a 'service' ie doing what they say they will do leading to you getting goods). CC protection also covers 'free stuff' as in buy X and get Y free. If they deliver X but fold without giving you Y your CC company would have to provide it or appropriate cash compensation for you to buy an equivalent item yourself)..... As long as you'd spent £100+

So..... non UK people are hosed? Sounds familiar

RoninXiC wrote:
Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.

And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.

Yes, we are justified to warn others that this company is owned by the same fellow that screwed over a lot of the community while at the helm of Maelstrom. Any company that he is involved with should be looked at very closely and avoided by those who don't wish to go through the hassle of possibly being ripped off again.

You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.

Get it?

Mierce may not be doing anything wrong at this time, but it doesn't change the fact that the company is operated by somebody who ripped off a lot of people in the community. Who is to say that he won't do so again? I would not give a single dime to any business affiliated with a scammer/thief like Mr. Lane.

Get it?

RoninXiC wrote:
Free stuff at 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387844

Ways to get to 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387802

Hmm how big is that lion/manticore thing again?

It seems that is the best free thing of them all

And I'm still not used to their weird whelsh names. Had to compare the charts side by side to make sure which figure went where. I suppose thats me just being lazy though

Yeah, it's quite big. RRP is 45 pounds. It's a massive freebie.
http://www.radaddel.de/ungefelic-mantichora.html here are some pictures.

And yeah, their names are just gibberish... blabargho of the yrlaeßliche ... something like that.

RoninXiC wrote:
Yeah, it's quite big. RRP is 45 pounds. It's a massive freebie.
http://www.radaddel.de/ungefelic-mantichora.html here are some pictures.

Wow yea he is big. Honestly he makes some of the other frees look a tad disappointing. The dyndraig just get a random trooper!

The Manticore is quite a large free mini as opposed to the other free minis. Though they are all balanced £/$ wise. The Ysian Brute Kindred was actually a little under the other Monstrous Infantry options on a £/$ value (for production) and this option will enable us to bring them into line with the others. The Brutes are a little bit smaller than the other Monstrous Infantry hence ther lower RRP and production costs so we can afford to add a little more to their option to bring parity. The Manticore is also one of the cheaper beasts for us to produce to we have a little more 'wiggle room' with him.

And of course we always wanted to be able to add a beast to that kindred so the Drune-Goaders have something to whip and prod into action (as well as the dim-witted Brutes that is!)

And hey, it's a good deal!

Glad to see Mierce Miniatures involved in this thread again, you have many miles to cover in order to rebuilt your credibility.
I think transparency is good for everyone sake and while under normal situations your comment regarding that your business is your business makes sense its a bit unrealistic under the current circumstances, I mean I really don't need any proofs to make my own judgement here, but many may think differently and they are asking for further clarifications beyond the normal expectations, cannot blame them.

Also IIRC there was a interview with Maelstorm owner hinting there was interest on doing banelegions KS?... so this KS is just another fruit from the same person?... Please correct if I'm wrong I'm probably being unfair here, but again is a good chance for transparent debates.

I'm wondering something will you guys be at salute?

We planned a KS a long time ago, but waited until we had the starter sets and Quickstarter rules to fund rather than just stick a load of minis up for the sake of it. We could eventually fund the production ourselves of course. But this gets the starter rules and sets released several months quicker and allows people to play games with their minis sooner and get into the game system.

We don't plan any shows first half of 2013 (maybe even the whole year). The KS will take up a lot of our time and we're a small team. If we over stretch we could fail. We'll be prioritising our customer, retailer and KS orders until we've reached fulfillment. A lot of our retailers attend shows and conventions and it does save us a hell of a lot of time and logistics!

 kenshin620 wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
Free stuff at 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387844

Ways to get to 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387802

Hmm how big is that lion/manticore thing again?

It seems that is the best free thing of them all

Yeah, the brutes get a really boss $60+ manticorel and the trolls get a $15 viking (who looks nice, but isnt as impressive). Seemed weird to me too, but maybe everything evens out in the end.

And I'm still not used to their weird whelsh names. Had to compare the charts side by side to make sure which figure went where. I suppose thats me just being lazy though

Yeah, I had the same issue w Tre's Red Box kickstarter. My eyes glaze over and it all becomes gibberish.

Yeah, I had the same issue w Tre's Red Box kickstarter. My eyes glaze over and it all becomes gibberish.

As a UK resident I'll let you in on a secret, it's already gibberish!

It's a secret conspiracy by the Welsh to achieve independence from the UK by bankrupting central government through the nefarious use of extra road signs with thousands of unnecessary letters.

I'm soo getting flamed by the Welsh now.

But it's ok, nobody will be able to read or pronounce what they write!

Well anyways Mierce, if you're listening think you could make the stretch goals appear more obvious where they go? Maybe color code or something

I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

Mierce Miniatures wrote:
We planned a KS a long time ago, but waited until we had the starter sets and Quickstarter rules to fund rather than just stick a load of minis up for the sake of it. We could eventually fund the production ourselves of course. But this gets the starter rules and sets released several months quicker and allows people to play games with their minis sooner and get into the game system.

We don't plan any shows first half of 2013 (maybe even the whole year). The KS will take up a lot of our time and we're a small team. If we over stretch we could fail. We'll be prioritising our customer, retailer and KS orders until we've reached fulfillment. A lot of our retailers attend shows and conventions and it does save us a hell of a lot of time and logistics!

Fair enough and good luck with your project.

This KS provides a good KS. I guess it was a good thing I didn't bite on their post-Christmas sale. I can get the items cheaper here and provide to the KS in the same time. Win-win.

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well anyways Mierce, if you're listening think you could make the stretch goals appear more obvious where they go? Maybe color code or something

They have little faction badges by each mini/unit.

I've pledged. I'm not sure if it's a serious pledge or a curiosity pledge, I guess I've got a month to work that out.

The whole Maelstrom fiasco aside, I bought a Terror of Fortiau when they very first came out and I have to say it is one of the best models I have ever owned in over 27 years in this hobby. The only thing upsetting me on this KS is I paid full price for a lot if these miniatures from Maelstrom before their issues started.
I am going to risk a punt on this KS, just not sure on which fraction and a bit of information on game play would not go amiss.

 plastictrees wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well anyways Mierce, if you're listening think you could make the stretch goals appear more obvious where they go? Maybe color code or something

They have little faction badges by each mini/unit.

Ah oh course I could miss that

Sigh I think I need to buy new glasses

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Since this will be running under UK law it's worth pointing out that you have NO credit card protection for purchaces under £100

That doesn't mean your card company won't claim it back for you. Mine refunded me the £35 Maelstrom owed me.