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Denilsta wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I would rather that the IP that belongs to the game is used to relaunch the game rather than being exploited to make a quick buck by another company.

I'm surprised to see so many dakka'ites so keen to support this sort of behaviour.

We're an easy going bunch who never complain

That genuinely made me laugh, exalted.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I would rather that the IP that belongs to the game is used to relaunch the game rather than being exploited to make a quick buck by another company.

I'm surprised to see so many dakka'ites so keen to support this sort of behaviour.

I find it funny you are defending coolmini. You ever heard of wrath of kings?

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/wrath-of-kings/wrath-of-kings-skorza-skirmisher-limited-edition.html

That is pretty much a wolfen model.

Anyway I think you are overreaching. So many different miniature games out now there is bound to be similarities and I think the example above is nothing more then an artists particular style.

I am more concerned when people take other peoples artwork and make miniatures out. Giving no credit or money to the original artist.

how dare an artist continue to be an artist after one of the many companies that sold his artwork folded

Where am I saying he should of he an artist? Go on let's see that quote.

No what I have an issue with is that this particular form of artistic expression is far to close to an existing miniature to pass without comment.

However seems to a lot of people here happy to tolerate a cash grab rip off, rather than want to see the rebirth of a game to create more diversity in the market which is a good thing for all.

@mahdrol first of all show me a miniature from the rackham range that features the same distinct sculptural elements in the same pose. Secondly coolmini owns wrath of kings, coolmini owns the rackham mini rights so they can pretty much do what they want with those two.

Mahrdol wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I would rather that the IP that belongs to the game is used to relaunch the game rather than being exploited to make a quick buck by another company.

I'm surprised to see so many dakka'ites so keen to support this sort of behaviour.

I find it funny you are defending coolmini. You ever heard of wrath of kings?

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/wrath-of-kings/wrath-of-kings-skorza-skirmisher-limited-edition.html

That is pretty much a wolfen model.

Anyway I think you are overreaching. So many different miniature games out now there is bound to be similarities and I think the example above is nothing more then an artists particular style.

I am more concerned when people take other peoples artwork and make miniatures out. Giving no credit or money to the original artist.

Nearly all of the Goritsi wolf models are being done by the same sculptors that did the Wolfen for Rackham.

Umm, have you looked at what Legacy has re-released from Rackham on CMoN. Speaking of a cash grab rip off...

1: The Confrontation Phoenix Kickstarter will be fine, even if he rules are as poor as I've heard.

2: Mierce's Kelts are huge muscular psychopaths, Rackhams Drunes were lean, cannabalistic psychopaths. The Horned Raiders will be dwarfed by the model you are so upset by.

3: Evil Kelts are not exclusive property of Rackham, and I say this as someone who owns every Drune model.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
However seems to a lot of people here happy to tolerate a cash grab rip off, rather than want to see the rebirth of a game to create more diversity in the market which is a good thing for all.

How is it a cash grab if he's sculpting a figure that is a mounted version of a figure he's already sculpted for the company in question, for a game the company is making? It's literally the mounted version of a guy on foot that already exists. By the same sculptor.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:


@mahdrol first of all show me a miniature from the rackham range that features the same distinct sculptural elements in the same pose. Secondly coolmini owns wrath of kings, coolmini owns the rackham mini rights so they can pretty much do what they want with those two.

Cool minis does not own the rights to Confrontation. Cyanide does unless I have missed the sale to coolmini. Pretty sure Cyanide has nothing to do with wrath of kings and wrath of kings was made before coolmini decided to reboot confrontation for Cyanide. I don't have an issue with what coolmini did even though I think that model is a wolfen knockoff. Like I said so many different games and I am pretty sure Rackham did not own the rights to humanoid wolves even though I bet you could very easily take that wrath of kings model and put it in your wolfen army.

@judgedoug it's a bare faced copy of an existing miniature from another company.

@mahdrol yes coolminiown the mini rights for rackham minis and has been slowly rereleasing them through their legacy range.

Guess I'm just the odd one out for not supporting IP infringement, oh well.

Pose is similar, and the horse does indeed have some bone neck armor.

Different head, arm armor, leg armor, belt, build, horse head, horse tail...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically what is the same is the sculptor is the same. If it was a different sculptor it probably actually would look nothing alike.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@judgedoug it's a bare faced copy of an existing miniature from another company.

@mahdrol yes coolminiown the mini rights for rackham minis and has been slowly rereleasing them through their legacy range.

Guess I'm just the odd one out for not supporting IP infringement, oh well.

I don't think that is true. They licensed the rights to produce the miniatures.

I hear what you are saying but I don't feel that is legally ip infringement. If you don't want to support that model that is your choice just like it is mine to not support the wrath of kings for the wolfen knockoffs.

@judgedoug thanks for posting that (mobile photo bucket is being a nuisance ATM) as it helps to prove my point.

@mahdrol you can support whatever you want I just feel your analogy is a poor one as it involves two linked ranges.

Well I've said my piece so to avoid detailing the thread further I will call it day. But needless to say this definately hasn't improved my opinion of mierce miniatures.

Seriously, people. The sculptors for the models in question ARE THE SAME!

The Goritisi are the Vampire/werewolf/Monster faction of Wrath of Kings. The "wolfen knockoffs" are done by the EXACT SAME SCULPTOR THAT DID THE CONFRON VESTALS.

They're not knockoffs, and the later models for the Wrath of Kings werewolfs have steampunk elements.

Calling them rip offs or knock off is absurd.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@judgedoug thanks for posting that (mobile photo bucket is being a nuisance ATM) as it helps to prove my point.

No prob. Didn't realize your point was that the differences outnumber the similarities by several factors. Of course these guys share as many similarities

@judgedoug your perfectly entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be ;-)

@cincydooly so if the guy that sculpted the current tactical squad space marines went to work for mantic and sculpted and exact copy it would be fine for them to be put into production because they are sculpted by the same guy. Methinks you have the wrong end of the stick there buddy.

There are certainly repeated themes in the sculpt, but it remains a new sculpt. He's using things he's incorporated into previous sculpts, you could claim this is mimicking his previous work but it's not copying it. If Jes G went to work someplace else and was asked to sculpt a tribal elf or a cyberpunk ganger, you can guarantee there'd be a severe mohawk in the range and at least one model would be pointing, side on, cos he likes sculpting them like that... It's the sculptor's equivalent of a signature.

And Rackham is dead.

And CMON are charging an arm and a leg for their limited range of the old Rackham minis, it's difficult to elicit sympathies for them there.

 cincydooley wrote:
Seriously, people. The sculptors for the models in question ARE THE SAME!

The Goritisi are the Vampire/werewolf/Monster faction of Wrath of Kings. The "wolfen knockoffs" are done by the EXACT SAME SCULPTOR THAT DID THE CONFRON VESTALS.

They're not knockoffs, and the later models for the Wrath of Kings werewolfs have steampunk elements.

Calling them rip offs or knock off is absurd.

Ok maybe knock offs is the wrong word but that Goritisi wolfen is very similar and interchangeable to that of Confrontation wolfen miniatures. I stated before I don't have an issue of it and its not illegal. It is no more different then the WIP of the darkands miniature. Like I said to each their own but saying that the Darlands miniature is IP infringement is not correct in my opinion.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Well that's starting to look very much like a rackham rip off to me.

Rip off =/= inspired by.

90% of mierce artists are old rackham artists, you can't expect an artists to throw away their style because they are changing company. That's not part of the IP.

And about that:

Don't you think everything is ripped off by something.
The biggest example being Games Workshop vs Blizzard (Activision): Warcraft and Starcraft are direct copies of Warhammer en WH40K I don't hear anyone complaining about that...

Also, I love the confrontation mini's and even the game. I am looking forward to the kickstarter, but I don't expect much from it.
They will probably do some mass recasting of the old/unreleased minis. The rules might be ok if we get lucky, if not most people will still use 3.0/3.5 ruleset.

Will they expand the range? If so I hope they can get the old sculptors and artists back, if not allot of the rackham IP you mentioned will actually be lost anyway...

Right....back to the threat, £85'000 Stretch goal busted, whats next, only 20 hours left!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll answer my own question..

As we're at £85,000 and have reached a cracking stretch goal, for our last day on this Kickstarter campaign we've decided to create not just one more stretch goal, but many - just in case we go crazy!
What this means is that as we get to certain levels miniatures will be unlocked and we will definitely make them should we get to that level. This will go all the way from £90,000 to £125,000, at which point we'll give you all a free miniature - although we won't unveil what it is until we get to £100,000!
Note: we have had a long think about it and have had to increase the pledge differences slightly from what we've stated before. Apologies if this causes you problems, but we really do need to get the money to make them!
Also note: if no images are showing, that is because we do not have the concept art for them yet. That will occur over the next couple of weeks, however!
So, here's the stretch goals...
£90,000 - Werwulf Unit

A unit of Werwulfas that will look quite similar to Cearl, the Werwulf Thegn for the Angelcynn that is already unlocked. The concepts are not yet available but will be soon, certainly within a week or so. Trust us when we say they will be magnificent!

There will be five Werwulfas - a Champion, a Standard-Bearer, a Musician and two Warriors - and you can increase your pledge by £70 to get hold of this unit. It's likely we'll get to £90,000 over the course of the last day so if you fancy some Angelcynn monstrous infantry, go for it!
£92,500 Stretch Goal - Angrislaug, Draiggoch of Eryri

For the Brythoniaid we have a very large dragon, Angrislaug. Increase your pledge by £40 for him, although we think he speaks for himself:

£95,000 Stretch Goal - Hrudinn, Valhrafn

A raven-giant for the Norse, Hrudinn will be bulky and nasty and winged. What more could you need to dominate the tabletop? Increase your pledge by £40 to get him!



£97,500 Stretch Goal - Ygandr, Hydra of Khthon

The Khthones get themselves a massive Hydra at £97,500. He really will kick those Atalantes into touch! Increase your pledge by £40 to get him!


£100,000 Stretch Goal - Vaak, Moraine Beast

Increase your pledge by £40 to get Vaak, a mighty Fomoraic construct of ice and rock to batter their enemies with. As if Uuthüll wasn't enough!
£102,500 Stretch Goal - Jowan of Carn Dhu, Hound-Master with three Drune-Hounds

The Drunes get Jowan of Carn Dhu and three Drune-Hounds, mighty beasts on 60mm bases, at £102,500 - as long as you increase your pledge by £26!

£107,500 Stretch Goal - Druc, Meat-Hulk

He's not green, but he's certainly a hulk... Druc will batter the enemies of the Ysians senseless with his mighty frame. Increase your pledge by £40 to get him!

£125,000 Stretch Goal

At this level, we'll give everyone who has backed this Kickstarter a free miniature. We're not going to reveal anything about it until we get to £100,000, though!
All of these stretch goals will provisionally ship in December 2013, but we have no doubt that some will appear earlier than that - and these could slip to January 2014 so please bear that in mind.
Note, there are no additional shipping fees if you've already chosen a Starter Set!
Get pledging everyone!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry but the link to the sketches would not work.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@judgedoug your perfectly entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be ;-)

@cincydooly so if the guy that sculpted the current tactical squad space marines went to work for mantic and sculpted and exact copy it would be fine for them to be put into production because they are sculpted by the same guy. Methinks you have the wrong end of the stick there buddy.

exact copy? so because the bones on the horse are similar, it's an exact copy?

yes, if one company produces an _exact copy_ then it is theft - literally taking a miniature and recasting it.

interestingly, regarding your space marine example... unless my history is incorrect, Bob Naismith sculpted the Laserburn infantry for Asgard Miniatures and TableTop, and then sculpted LE2 Space Marine for Citadel in 1985, and the Space Marines range from 1986-1989. the Laserburn figs and Space Marines are very similar, shoulder pads and beakie helmets and all.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@judgedoug your perfectly entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be ;-)

@cincydooly so if the guy that sculpted the current tactical squad space marines went to work for mantic and sculpted and exact copy it would be fine for them to be put into production because they are sculpted by the same guy. Methinks you have the wrong end of the stick there buddy.

I think you may want to reevaluate what an 'exact copy' is there, boss.

Are there aesthetic similarities? Sure. Because it's that sculptor's aesthetic.

As for the Wolfen model -> I have examples of both. They're in different scale. The weapons are styled differently. And like I said earlier, the future WoK Wolf models will be incorporating some steam punk aspects.

Back to Darklands:

I'm really digging the new Raven dudes for the Norse, which is the faction I think I'm going to end up going with. But I won't lie: as someone that is a huge sucker for werewolf miniatures, I'm really tempted by the Anglycnn...if only I didn't already have three of the models....

 judgedoug wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@judgedoug your perfectly entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be ;-)

@cincydooly so if the guy that sculpted the current tactical squad space marines went to work for mantic and sculpted and exact copy it would be fine for them to be put into production because they are sculpted by the same guy. Methinks you have the wrong end of the stick there buddy.

exact copy? so because the bones on the horse are similar, it's an exact copy?

yes, if one company produces an _exact copy_ then it is theft - literally taking a miniature and recasting it.

interestingly, regarding your space marine example... unless my history is incorrect, Bob Naismith sculpted the Laserburn infantry for Asgard Miniatures and TableTop, and then sculpted LE2 Space Marine for Citadel in 1985, and the Space Marines range from 1986-1989. the Laserburn figs and Space Marines are very similar, shoulder pads and beakie helmets and all.

Sigh...

The simple fact of the matter is that judgedoug is far closer in his understanding of the relevant laws and standards then you are here UNCLEBADTOUCH, at least insofar as the laws of the US are concerned.

It would be clearly impermissible to produce an "exact copy" of a miniature; it is thus important to realize that what is being referred to hear does not come even vaguely close to meeting the standard of "exact copy", as the images posted above are clearly non-identical.

A more difficult question would be the issue of a "derivative work"; generally speaking a derivative work is "“a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted".

The problem is, as aptly demonstrated above, the degree of similarity is essentially that they are two mounted barbarians with semi-skeletal horses. While the bone styles in the horse's mane are very stylistically similar, there are also notable divergences: the horse's skull face rather then barding, and the skull spaulder versus the armor, as well as stylistic differences in the armor on both figures. Simply put, as per the precedent in Herbert Rosenthal Jewelry Corp v. Kalpakian, copyright does not extend so far over derivative works as to confer protection over the entire "idea", only a single "expression".

Man I hope we get that Mallox, he is AWESOME! Some really cool figures up till the end here, I hope there's some substantial push coming, I think this line is really awesome!

 judgedoug wrote:


Pose is similar, and the horse does indeed have some bone neck armor.

Different head, arm armor, leg armor, belt, build, horse head, horse tail...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically what is the same is the sculptor is the same. If it was a different sculptor it probably actually would look nothing alike.

And those guys lineage traces back to Frazetta's Death Dealer, which was no doubt inspired by something I dont know about that ripped off something else that was some cave man's IP. Art borrows from art.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
And CMON are charging an arm and a leg for their limited range of the old Rackham minis, it's difficult to elicit sympathies for them there.

This. And they wonder why the stuff readily available for a third of the price on ebay isnt flying off the shelves. How many U-Haul boxes of Rackham metal are you guys sitting on that was clearanced for 80% off? I've got at least 2 that I know where they are lol.

Yea, imo you are way over reacting

Agreed that there are only so many ways you can make a Muscle Head Horse Rider.

Next thing you'll know, people will complain writers ripping off their own stories

I am waiting for the second kickstarter campaign. I lost too much money at Maelstrom to trust them yet. If they deliver good on this kickstarter, they will gain my trust again.

Too bad cause I really love the minis btw ^^

For what it's worth, in my sad, twisted, paranoid mind.

If a hypothetical company were to go bankrupt, taking a load of peoples money down the pan with them.

If this hypothetical company, then morphed into a legally different company, but effectively the same and planned a fundraising campaign....

If I were someone in charge of this hypothetical company, would ensure that there is a low initial 'goal' that the company was guaranteed to meet, with a bunch of bonuses in order to gain excitement and a 'buzz' in order to regain trust in my hypothetical brand.

I would then fully intend to deliver on this hypothetical campaign, ensuring that I have both a strong bank account and a strong banking of 'good will' from customers.

I would then, hypothetically, begin screwing people all over again, now having a strong good will bank and a large number of people who can go, "but it's fine, Compel delivered on his fundraising campaign, I got all my hypothetical stuff. Just wait and see, it'll all turn out fine."

Then I would, hypothetically, run off to the bank, happy in the knowledge that I've made triple (or more!) the amount I would have, if I just hypothetically screwed people off twice in a row. And, of course, hypothetically, still delivering a little, so I still have that tiny ounce of good will still existing, so I could pull it off again in the future, if I so desired....

As I said, I have a sad, pathetic and worryingly, maybe a little sociopathic mind...

 Compel wrote:
...

It's not that far-fetched if you ask me. But if they screw people over now, it's really going to be game over for them.

The fact they don't allow paypal also worries me. Kickstarter doesn't offer any protection either. You don't got any safety mechanism here.

Seriously, we're starting this discussion again??? What, it must be at least two pages since last mentioned "yawn".

Just letting peeps know there is a free "Sharpen Your Blades, Earlier" level at this point in time.

Someone (namely me) has pansied out in the last few hours.