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Whew!
All this bickering and opinion-based arguments around rules, names, backgrounds, history...!
I'm so glad I just buy dem perty minis cos I likes 'em.

I don't even know the 'background on any of my several dozen purchased minis, I just like building, cleaning, filling, painting, and looking at them.

Perhaps I should...maybe I should be more careful which minis I place together, lest they start fighting because they are opposing factions...

Nah!

Well, painters will always just buy the models they like. Most people look for a ruleset or at least a clearly defined faction to build towards, though.

 RiTides wrote:
Well, painters will always just buy the models they like. Most people look for a ruleset or at least a clearly defined faction to build towards, though.

Hmm, I'd love to see some stats to back that assertion...

Hey Mierce, what percentage of customers just buy minis, ie not 500 gold mustesr of one faction?

Be interesting to see...!

 Azreal13 wrote:

cincydooley wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
So that's another slip from, what was it, November?

I have to say, and this has been on my mind for a while, that my enthusiasm remains, but as the game slips further and further down the line, my enthusiasm to buy more effectively blind diminishes.

The quick start is PLENTY to start chewing on until the new year. It's already more robust than many other rulebooks.

highlord tamburlaine wrote:A rulebook that has more than just the rules in it though is a book that I'm far more likely to pull off the shelf to read just for the hell of it.

If the actual book is going to slip into 2015, which I'm fine with if it means even more art and the like, gives me a good reason to pick up the quickstart rulebook then to tide me over.

Very least I can pawn that book off on my brother when the nice full version arrives.

This.

It isn't so much about lacking an option to play the game, it is all the rest of the experience that surrounds it, up to and including the smell of cracking open a brand new glossy tome for the first time.

Both myself and my only likely initial opponent had decided to hold off starting until we had the full book, and that target is simply sliding off towards the horizon and other games and priorities are beginning to insert themselves between me and it.

I can feel myself losing impetus, and I'm fairly sure a book the allows me to get inside the game world will resolve that, so I guess, for me, it is now a race between the book launching and me losing all momentum and relegating Mierce from a company I'm a huge fan of, who makes miniatures for a game I play to a company I occasionally buy counts as models for other games I play.

Personally, I'd rather them hold off on the full rule book so that they can include all of the factions and figures into it.

 RiTides wrote:
Well, painters will always just buy the models they like. Most people look for a ruleset or at least a clearly defined faction to build towards, though.

You can get that now, though it is in a few places.

I think every Mierce KS update has links to the game rules, muster rules (army building) and Kindred lists (including points costs).

It was a bit of a shocker to me that the rulebook printing is delayed until next year BUT...

1) I get the feeling that it is a 'one man band' at Mierce when it comes to rules/fluff writing?
2) Maybe Mierce can combine shipping the rules with a subsequent wave of miniatures, to help out on costs? With individual backer approval, of course!

I'd be OK with that, if it helps out any.

Still the best news is that KS5 starts in about a week!

It's the one man band vibe that's giving me bad juju feelings about the whole thing. The quality of the miniatures I've received so far is unquestionably very high (and I've a large hole in my bank account that says I'm committed and want this project to succeed), but I can't see the game system taking off when Rob has said a number of times that it is he who does the writing and he won't delegate that task to others. It means that as well as running the company and kickstarters, he is solely responsible for the design, rules, feedback, QA - when does this guy get to sleep?
I suspect the rulebook is pushed back again simply because there aren't enough hours in the day for Rob to do everything himself, but then as the manager he should know that he shouldn't be trying to one-man-band it.

Henry wrote:
It's the one man band vibe that's giving me bad juju feelings about the whole thing. The quality of the miniatures I've received so far is unquestionably very high (and I've a large hole in my bank account that says I'm committed and want this project to succeed), but I can't see the game system taking off when Rob has said a number of times that it is he who does the writing and he won't delegate that task to others. It means that as well as running the company and kickstarters, he is solely responsible for the design, rules, feedback, QA - when does this guy get to sleep?
I suspect the rulebook is pushed back again simply because there aren't enough hours in the day for Rob to do everything himself, but then as the manager he should know that he shouldn't be trying to one-man-band it.

No need to 'suspect' it - he's outright stated it!

Maybe Mierce as a company isn't in the position to hire on someone specifically for this task, if that's "all" they'd be hired on for?

Maybe?

 Alpharius wrote:

Henry wrote:
It's the one man band vibe that's giving me bad juju feelings about the whole thing. The quality of the miniatures I've received so far is unquestionably very high (and I've a large hole in my bank account that says I'm committed and want this project to succeed), but I can't see the game system taking off when Rob has said a number of times that it is he who does the writing and he won't delegate that task to others. It means that as well as running the company and kickstarters, he is solely responsible for the design, rules, feedback, QA - when does this guy get to sleep?
I suspect the rulebook is pushed back again simply because there aren't enough hours in the day for Rob to do everything himself, but then as the manager he should know that he shouldn't be trying to one-man-band it.

No need to 'suspect' it - he's outright stated it!

Maybe Mierce as a company isn't in the position to hire on someone specifically for this task, if that's "all" they'd be hired on for?

Maybe?

Or he's like some of us who refuse to delegate work to others because of a lack of trust they will do it right.

Or in the same direction? Something like this I'd want to keep control off until I have a robust universe with all the major factions documented, style guides written, etc. so that any new writers have a clear direction to follow.

Easy for me to say that as I'm not planning on playing the game, I only want the minis for painting and proxying as Chaos Daemons.

It's his vision after all, I can't blame him for wanting to keep creative control over it.

I'd do the same. I've been trying to get a kid's book published, and the one publisher who showed any interest so far wanted to take it and turn it into something completely different, and bring on board a bunch of other people.

I wasn't going to have any of it. Why should I put all my blood, sweat, and tears into a project for someone else to come along and muck it up in a direction I didn't want to take it? I think the same thing applies here.

When they're filthy rich and a publicly traded company, that's the time they can jump ship and let someone else ruin things!

Pretty much!

And:

Creator Mierce Miniatures about 4 hours ago

@Dan - Alpharius has it right; Kickstarter is our business model, for now at least. It's all right saying "let's give it a break"... but I have staff and bills to pay...

heh!

RivenSkull wrote:
Or he's like some of us who refuse to delegate work to others because of a lack of trust they will do it right.

I'm trying to write my thoughts in a way that doesn't make me sound like an ass. So please accept that I wish Rob and his team all the best and in no way do I presume to know how he runs his business. This response is not aimed at him but to the responses of what I said.

Good managers delegate.

Henry wrote:

RivenSkull wrote:
Or he's like some of us who refuse to delegate work to others because of a lack of trust they will do it right.

I'm trying to write my thoughts in a way that doesn't make me sound like an ass. So please accept that I wish Rob and his team all the best and in no way do I presume to know how he runs his business. This response is not aimed at him but to the responses of what I said.

Good managers delegate.

Good managers delegate when they can afford to hire competent, trustworthy people.

It's a small company; he simply may not be able to delegate the necessary funds to that particular measure, just yet.

As long as the starter bundles in the new kickstarter end up an the very least on the Mierce store I'll be happy.

 Alpharius wrote:
Pretty much!

And:

Creator Mierce Miniatures about 4 hours ago

@Dan - Alpharius has it right; Kickstarter is our business model, for now at least. It's all right saying "let's give it a break"... but I have staff and bills to pay...

heh!

The problem with this is Mierce/Lane is continually starting new campaigns when previous ones aren't delivered on yet. It's one thing with a larger(!) company like Mantic who sells to many others and has a retail reach beyond their own website, but when you've got Rob Lane's track record - specifically his track record when it comes to delivering on goods that have been paid for, it might be a little more risky at some stage. "But I have staff and bllls to pay" is a sentence that gives a bit of cause for concern. Looks a bit like a game of Jenga to me...

I could go on, but I won't for the time being.

wait what? Mierce's Kickstarter have been extremely well done so far. extremely good update policy, quick and honest answers to delays and most if not the majority of stuff arrives in time.

for those that do have concerns (which are understandable) that's the beauty of Mierceday

each week we see WIPS of new stuff being sculpted by top talents in the industry

plus regular dispatches in waves of minis as they're done (for those that have paid for wave shipping)

we can see where the money is going

 Azazelx wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Pretty much!

And:

Creator Mierce Miniatures about 4 hours ago

@Dan - Alpharius has it right; Kickstarter is our business model, for now at least. It's all right saying "let's give it a break"... but I have staff and bills to pay...

heh!

The problem with this is Mierce/Lane is continually starting new campaigns when previous ones aren't delivered on yet. It's one thing with a larger(!) company like Mantic who sells to many others and has a retail reach beyond their own website, but when you've got Rob Lane's track record - specifically his track record when it comes to delivering on goods that have been paid for, it might be a little more risky at some stage. "But I have staff and bllls to pay" is a sentence that gives a bit of cause for concern. Looks a bit like a game of Jenga to me...

I could go on, but I won't for the time being.

Classic FUD. Let's see how I am doing 4 Kickstarters in. Well, I have all my stuff from the first Kickstarter, nearly all my stuff for second. I can see the sculpts that I've purchased for the third Kickstarter in production (through the weekly updates) and I received a recent chunk of existing stuff from the fourth Kickstarter. I'd say they've been delivering. And, not only that, they've been delivering on time and on target, baring the odd exception.

I got my latest batch of ks4 stuff yesterday, excellent as always. My one regret is that I skipped ks3.

I think Azazelx is saying that the Next One Could Be The One That Causes It All To Fall Apart?

However the explanation we've been given is that Mierce needs to book up sculptors and the best way for them to do that, using metrics that they've come up with and seem to be working so far, is to run Kickstarters, raise funds, and book sculptors up.

The beauty of it all is, of course, if anyone is worried, they absolutely should not pledge and wait for the miniatures they like to hit retail.

I also think they are making a rod for their own back, solely releasing new items via kickstarter means a lot of your potential sales are fulfilled before it hits retail. To be on a more sustainable footing and create greater incentive for stockists to carry their line they should probably reinvest some money in straight to retail releases. Also selling your back catalogue at knock down prices via kickstarter also makes it harder to create a firm retail base.

Currently Mierce is a house built on sand, they need the foundations of retail going forwards. If one kickstarter doesn't make enough money to keep the wolf from the door we will see a lot of unpaid sculptors and a lot of customers without product (again).

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I also think they are making a rod for their own back, solely releasing new items via kickstarter means a lot of your potential sales are fulfilled before it hits retail. To be on a more sustainable footing and create greater incentive for stockists to carry their line they should probably reinvest some money in straight to retail releases. Also selling your back catalogue at knock down prices via kickstarter also makes it harder to create a firm retail base.

Currently Mierce is a house built on sand, they need the foundations of retail going forwards. If one kickstarter doesn't make enough money to keep the wolf from the door we will see a lot of unpaid sculptors and a lot of customers without product (again).

You are making the assumption that the sculptors aren't being paid out of the KS that funded that new sculpt, which isn't the case from what we can see. Mierce seem to be raising money for the next x months worth of work with each KS, i.e., obtaining funds for new work, so without new funds the business would wind up after the last funded KS finished fulfilment. The accusation raised against Mantic by more than a few is that they are operating in a debit function with their KS, in that they are funding previous KS with the latest one. I have no idea if that is true.

No I'm making the assumption they are having sculptors start work for a kickstarter before the kickstarter funding it is complete, as evidenced by work in progress shots. If that kickstarter doesn't make sufficient to cover the running costs of the business but funds then the sculptors won't be paid for work started and backers won't get their pledge rewards as evidenced by rob lanes previous behaviour.

This is why I think they need to have more exposure through normal retail channels. If they have more income coming in this way then they are less vulnerable to the vagaries of kickstarter. However stockists are going to be more enthusiastic about the product if not all the sales are being swallowed up via kickstarter leaving them only breadcrumbs. Why invest in a line you will struggle to sell?

They need to use kickstarter for new sculpts only, leave the existing range for retailers to shift and every now and again do a new sculpt for a straight to retail release.

I may not like how rob lane went about setting this business up and will not purchase their products but I would prefer to see the company on a firm footing to reduce the chances of the community getting shafted again.

To me that means not relying on kickstarter for all their revenue and increasing their retail base to bring in new customers.

Which WIP are you talking about that were commissioned prior to a KS? I know of only one, the Erbus (SP) Mount and I would suspect that the funds for that were surplus to a previous KS anyway.

I'd argue that retail sales are actually completely the wrong way, this is a niche product in a niche sector, tying up limited customer funds early is a good thing, I have to decide what I want to buy each month from a long list and I have a large monthly budget.

Retail they would have to pay for the sculpt, the moulds, the initial batch of casts all out of their existing funds with no guaranteed sales. KS removes all of that uncertainty.

That's a fair point, I suppose!

Mierce Darklands is definitely a niche within a niche - a boutique resin line of miniatures.

To me, getting the completed rules and background book finished and out for sale will be the biggest key in generating a more stable traditional 'retail' sales path for them - both on their own webstore and in FLGS and online game stores too.

Of course, all of this assumes stuff that we don't know - like what are Mierce's plans, goals, aspirations, etc.

@lookylikey reread my post, in it I say to use kickstarter for new sculpts. To not sell existing sculpts as kickstarter add ons (these sales can go to boosting retail sales) and to do an occasional 'retail exclusive' sculpt from reserved profit. If you have fixed costs like premises and staff to cover relying soley on kickstarter funds is not security.

I'm not saying don't use kickstarter, I'm saying build retail channels and narrow the scope of the kickstarters to create a more stable financial base.

If you don't see securing a businesses financial future as a good thing then you have some pretty odd ideas.or perhaps you would rather just get cheap shinies now and not worry about later?

As for WIPs you see plenty during the campaigns as well as concept art all of which has to be paid for. Remember there is a significant delay between the start of the campaign and funds being transferred.

@alpharius the trouble is if all sales (back catalogue included) go through kickstarter there is little incentive for retailers to pick up that line even with a rule set. Retailers will be loathe to buy into a line where it will be difficult to move as the parent company keeps selling the back catalogue at large discounts.

Actually the campaigns have been run on a basis of "we need x to commission the sculptor. So get us to the unlock and we can't start the commissioning process". I don't think sculptors start work without a down payment at least, and most of sculptors don't start work on the pieces until the money is guaranteed. As an aside, this is probably the closest to what people refer to as a "true-kickstarter" - often Mierce are paying for concept artwork during the campaign when the money reaches certain levels, presumably to avoid over-extending themselves, with each stretch goal showing what will be sculpted next. Quite often, people are hankering for the next reveal only to be told "The artists is finishing it off, hopefully in the next few hours" and sometimes has to resort to partially completed pieces if the total is rising faster than anticipated. There's less emphasis on packing the pledges with a ton of models and it's more about building up the range with discounts over retail and minor exclusives the order of the day. They also do trade sales to various companies, so that adds some additional funds that allow them to do fun things like the Axman of Omens.

Besides, Mierce has built up a reputation by using some of the best sculptors in the business and some of sculptors actively enjoy working on Mierce projects. Tim Fischer of Mierce always remarks that he is talks with different sculptors and has commented that he does get approached from time to time by sculptors asking to work on Mierce pieces. Roberto Chaudon, Allan Carrasco, Stéphane Simon and Olivier Nkweti are just a few of the many that are regular sculptors. Roberto is commonly remarked by Mierce to keep an eye on the KS comments and is fan favourite.

To be frank, if you want to use the best in the business and guarantee sculpts, you'd want to keep the sculptors sweet and maintain a good working reputation - that means making down payments, or full payments before commission, regular dialogue, feedback and a generally pleasant working atmosphere. The fact Mierce are able to commission these sculptors time and again tells me they're doing something right.

So where are the funds for these straight to retail releases coming from? To pay for the sculpting, moulds, initial casts for stock?

Concept art is different, thats promotional material for the KS. Other than that mount I don't remember any seen any WIP that wasn't from a previous KS?

There is nothing stopping Mierce from selling stock via a retailer, however that impacts their direct pricing as they then have to build in margin for the retailer to make a profit on and discount, which in turn impacts the KS, as the product will be available elsewhere for less.

Agreed - that's a fair point!

I can understand trying to entice more sales via KS, but you're right - it is hard to "incentivize" B&M and Internet retailers to purchase the line if every 6 months the manufacturer is going to offer deals they can't meet or beat.

Of course, there are ways around this, I guess, but again, we don't know what Mierce's long terms goals, aspirations, plans, etc. are.

I am just as interested in the Darklands GAME as I am the beautiful miniatures.

I want this to be a long term, ongoing, surviving, healthy game and retail line - it scratches just about all of my fantasy wargaming itches!

@lookylikey like I already said in my post reserved profit for the occasional straight to release item. One mini every couple of months would be easily done.

WIPs go look back at the updates there is plenty there.

So concept art is free if it's for promo purposes?

Retail prices lower than kickstarter prices, well that's news to everyone on the planet.

You either need to take more time reading posts or stop intentionally trying to push your misguided agenda for 'cheap shinies'.