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 Pilau Rice wrote:

And it was more of a squad of Imperial Fists at Hydra Cordatus rather than a company I am pretty sure.

Nope, it was a full company of Fists. Just finished reading Storm of Iron again last week.

Actually in regards to the Iron Cage, Dorn knew it was a trap. Someone told him (Guilliman I think) and he didn't care. He was rather messed up at the time (Emperor dead, Dorn was in charge of defense of Emperor and Terra etc.) The Iron Cage was Dorn's way of proving himself, as he had been ordered to take it and cut the Imperial Fists down to Codex size at the same time, also as he was ordered, though he really didn't like the Codex Astartes and really didn't want to break the Fists up. Basically the Iron Cage was so that everyone would say, "what a loyal, brave, stubborn, thickheaded, indoctrinated primarch he is. We were so wrong to have doubted him. After, you know, Terra and everything."

After reading Angel Exterminatus I have to say I sympathize with the Iron Warriors more then any other legion. They are disgruntled and abused combat engineers, like the real life counter parts. If I had to put up with the crap I have to do daily but for hundreds of years with no real rest. I might be a little upset or perturbed if you would lol.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After reading Angel Exterminatus I have to say I sympathize with the Iron Warriors more then any other legion. They are disgruntled and abused combat engineers, like the real life counter parts. If I had to put up with the crap I have to do daily but for hundreds of years with no real rest. I might be a little upset or perturbed if you would lol.

Yeah,based on that book IW are good guys (and Perturabo was offended that IW weren't in that painted picture,LOL)
...It sucks...I want them to be evil...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'm frankly not too fond of the shift in fluff concerning the Iron Warriors.

They were always among the cruelest and most sadistic legions, and Perturabo was a sociopath.

Don't you worry. The IW are extremely cruel and sadistic in C.L. Werner's Siege of Castellax.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After reading Angel Exterminatus I have to say I sympathize with the Iron Warriors more then any other legion. They are disgruntled and abused combat engineers, like the real life counter parts. If I had to put up with the crap I have to do daily but for hundreds of years with no real rest. I might be a little upset or perturbed if you would lol.

Right on the nail here. I've never ever met a combat engineer in my years as an infantry officer who was happy with his job, lol...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After reading Angel Exterminatus I have to say I sympathize with the Iron Warriors more then any other legion. They are disgruntled and abused combat engineers, like the real life counter parts. If I had to put up with the crap I have to do daily but for hundreds of years with no real rest. I might be a little upset or perturbed if you would lol.

Yeah,based on that book IW are good guys (and Perturabo was offended that IW weren't in that painted picture,LOL)
...It sucks...I want them to be evil...

Them having some valid grievances doesn't excuse their sadism, and certainly doesn't make them "good guys". Just because your daddy beat you, doesn't mean it's okay for you to beat your wife and kids.

And Perturabo really could have stopped blaming everyone but himself, and actually taken some action to correct the course his Legion was taking. Other Primarchs refused to be split into into garrison forces, and refused assignments they didn't like. Only Perturabo took the route of "Boohoo, I'm so loyal and do everything that I'm told, and everyone gaks on me, and then I make an impulsive decision to slaughter my own planet and quickly turn allegiances to avoid the consequences."

Enigwolf wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After reading Angel Exterminatus I have to say I sympathize with the Iron Warriors more then any other legion. They are disgruntled and abused combat engineers, like the real life counter parts. If I had to put up with the crap I have to do daily but for hundreds of years with no real rest. I might be a little upset or perturbed if you would lol.

Right on the nail here. I've never ever met a combat engineer in my years as an infantry officer who was happy with his job, lol...

Well to be honest most combat engineers love their job. I for sure do, being a member of the engineer corps is something I am very proud of. Being treated like the red headed step child of the Army on the other hand sucks. Also having to do your job and cater to everybody else is annoying. Like doing missions and fixing infantries stuff. Even though they out number you 3 platoons to 1 you have to keep up with their mission pace and repair their stuff.....and forget about your own because you don't have time lol.

Omegus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After reading Angel Exterminatus I have to say I sympathize with the Iron Warriors more then any other legion. They are disgruntled and abused combat engineers, like the real life counter parts. If I had to put up with the crap I have to do daily but for hundreds of years with no real rest. I might be a little upset or perturbed if you would lol.

Yeah,based on that book IW are good guys (and Perturabo was offended that IW weren't in that painted picture,LOL)
...It sucks...I want them to be evil...

Them having some valid grievances doesn't excuse their sadism, and certainly doesn't make them "good guys". Just because your daddy beat you, doesn't mean it's okay for you to beat your wife and kids.

And Perturabo really could have stopped blaming everyone but himself, and actually taken some action to correct the course his Legion was taking. Other Primarchs refused to be split into into garrison forces, and refused assignments they didn't like. Only Perturabo took the route of "Boohoo, I'm so loyal and do everything that I'm told, and everyone gaks on me, and then I make an impulsive decision to slaughter my own planet and quickly turn allegiances to avoid the consequences."

Really Isn't that simple. No legion is the good guys and all dabble in extremes that would see them called monsters in civilized society. Also its more like my daddy abused me so I'm tearing down all that is his in retribution. Though for Perturabo he feels his father isn't bad or abused him. But is taking mankind on the wrong path (as he has been informed/lied to) and is going to hold him accountable for his actions.

Obviously the story to play out as it does Perturabo has to make the wrong choice. Loyalty can lead you to make decisions that to some seem stupid. Perturabo dedicated his legion to the Great Crusade on a level that the other legions never did. But instead of gaining praise...he didn't get anything for it. Barely a memory or a poem. This is going to wear anybody (especially prideful demigods) very thin.

Yes he makes the choice to purge his own planet ( a decision mind you that all the legions most likely would of done). The point is he regrets it and yes changes allegiance to someone that praises his actions. He chooses to side with his brother because he gave him something his father and his people neglected. Simple recognition for his dedication to the cause.

I think you are underestimating how Perturabo's paranoia, rather than any nobility of character, drove his brutality.

So, Rogal Dorn and Pertabo are both experts in siege warfare. Arguably the imperial fists are better at defending, and the Iron warriors are better at assaulting, but there probably wasn't very much in it...

So, Rogal Dorn tasked with the building of the defences of the imperial palace has a long hard think, and he designs the defences so that the best defensive legion (Fists) could hold the defences against the best offensive Legion, and Pertabo thinks this is an insult??

Its not as if Dorn just put up a white picket fence and said 'the iron warriors are so incompetent they won't be able to climb over my nice fence with the gravel path and lovely flower beds',
No, the imperial palace was a testament to the ability of the iron warriors, Dorn was saying, 'I'm designing this palace to resist the best attacking force i can think of' Its an absolute complement to the iron warriors that the palace was being designed with resisting them in mind.

Pertabo took it so badly its childish, but dorn could have, you know, been a bit more diplomatic about it, all he had to say was 'hey, brosef, daddy wants me to build a really cool fortress, and i was wondering, what do you guys think? what can i change so that even you guys would get your asses kicked?'

Dorn being nicer to Perturabo would not have made Perturabo a nice guy. Perturabo was fethed up from the outset.

What I thought was interesting about Perterabo in Angel Exterminatus is how he recognizes that it was a mistake to side with Horus and the other traitors but knows that once he sets his mind to a course of action there is no going back. he will see it out to its conclusion. Its the same trait that makes his legion so good at what they do, but at the same time damns them.

Perterabo essentially suffers from severe Aspergers/high functioning Autism and many of his actions make complete sense when viewed in this light.

"Back in the day" it was all about achieving glory.
They prided themselves for being intelligent and independent. They became siege specialists by default due to their skills. To be volunteered to be left behind to maintain a hold on a planet as others seek glory is a thankless task.

Having a "brother" that repeatedly states no-one can breach his defenses set up on earth is like waving a raw steak at a dog. Especially when the one hearing this, figures he cannot think himself out of a paper bag.

To have the legion stretched thin across multiple planets was bothersome logistically to keep contact and supplies. They got no respect since they seemed more as pencil pushers to the other primarchs which was unfair.

They had one thing they wanted to prove: they can outthink and take-on all comers in their battlements against these conceited legions.

I like these guys they just are angry and very practical to a fault.

 lord of corn wrote:
Perterabo essentially suffers from severe Aspergers/high functioning Autism and many of his actions make complete sense when viewed in this light.

I think you're right but that there is more to it: namely, Asperger's doesn't make people sadistic and violent. Perturabo is both of those things.

I agree with you there, and didn't mean to imply the Aspergers/autism was the cause of his sadistic violent nature.

He is a biological superhuman weapon after all with the express purpose of killing things very efficiently which would explain his violent or any of the primarchs inherently violent natures. whether he is any more sadistic than any of his brothers is debatable. maybe he is just incapable of hiding those natural tendencies as well as some of the other primarchs.

In the book he is depicted as someone with a very short temper who is easily frustrated and because he is emotionally stunted the only way he knows how to react is lashing out in anger and violence.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After reading Angel Exterminatus I have to say I sympathize with the Iron Warriors more then any other legion. They are disgruntled and abused combat engineers, like the real life counter parts. If I had to put up with the crap I have to do daily but for hundreds of years with no real rest. I might be a little upset or perturbed if you would lol.

Right on the nail here. I've never ever met a combat engineer in my years as an infantry officer who was happy with his job, lol...

Well to be honest most combat engineers love their job. I for sure do, being a member of the engineer corps is something I am very proud of. Being treated like the red headed step child of the Army on the other hand sucks. Also having to do your job and cater to everybody else is annoying. Like doing missions and fixing infantries stuff. Even though they out number you 3 platoons to 1 you have to keep up with their mission pace and repair their stuff.....and forget about your own because you don't have time lol.

Very true - I raise my hat to you, good sir.

I do think that Rogal Dorn himself has some part to play. He wasn't very tacit or diplomatic when he basically outright stated that in Angel Exterminatus. If he had explained it as madtankbloke did, maybe they'd be all hugs and kisses instead. In fact, working with Perturabo instead would've probably been an even better idea - getting the expertise from the best in siege warfare on how to break a siege when building a fortress... Dorn was in a sense too arrogant and prideful in his own way.