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Fluff wise, are greater daemons stronger than Daemon princes or vice versa? The Chaos Daemon codex says Daemon princess are shunned since they aren't full daemon, but it also calls them if I remember correctly "the greatest of the chaos god's servants." Does it depend on the Daemon Prince? I've always assumed the primarchs who became DPs are far more powerful than non primarch DPs...

It's entirely dependant on the demon prince. A bog standard champion of Khorne that becomes a DP wouldn't be more powerful than a Bloodthirster, but Angron is so powerful that he rolls with a group of Bloodthirsters as his retinue.

You say "fluff wise"...do you mean rules wise?

 Coolyo294 wrote:
It's entirely dependant on the demon prince. A bog standard champion of Khorne that becomes a DP wouldn't be more powerful than a Bloodthirster, but Angron is so powerful that he rolls with a group of Bloodthirsters as his retinue.

Yes but Angron isn't a match for the most powerful Bloodthirsters, like An'ggrath the Unbound.. But someone like Doombreed might actually be a match for him.

Generally it goes, from weakest to strongest.

Newly risen Daemon Prince.

Standard GD:

Named Daemon Princes that have made a name for themselves and grown far stronger.

Named Greater Daemons: Fateweaver and the like

Daemon Primarchs

Greatest Daemons/Greatest DP's (Muddled here)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yes but Angron isn't a match for the most powerful Bloodthirsters, like An'ggrath the Unbound..

Didn't Lorgar beat An'ggrath up back when he was a punk?

Normally GD's > DP's, though certain Princes like Doombreed and the Daemon Primarchs are exceptions to the rule.

And Angron had a personal retinue of 12 Bloodthirsters. He's more then a match for them....

It all depends on the Daemon Prince. Angron with the Cruor Praetoria, as mentioned above, is obviously more powerful than your standard Bloodthirster. However, massively powerful Greater Daemons, also called "Daemon Lords" such as An'ggrath, Zarakynel, Scabeiathrax, or Aetaos'rau'keres boast unimaginable power. They're pretty much direct avatars of their respective gods.

 FinalAnswer wrote:

Didn't Lorgar beat An'ggrath up back when he was a punk?

...no.

 FinalAnswer wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yes but Angron isn't a match for the most powerful Bloodthirsters, like An'ggrath the Unbound..

Didn't Lorgar beat An'ggrath up back when he was a punk?

I think that was Sanguinious.


And it entirely depends on the Daemon.

Greater Daemons, of which Daemon princes are a subsect, are always playing an immensly complex political game vying for their lord's favor. They do this by beating each other, taking each others followers, and gaining general XP.

I would put forth that doing these things has an actual effect on the physical abilities of the Daemon.

A Prince thats gained immense notoriety and lots of ardent followers will be physically more powerful then a Daemon that has less "mojo"


So naturally a Daemon Primarch would have more of this "mojo" then most other Greater Daemons, and no reason he couldn't aquire more.

An'ggrath is of course the most powerful Bloodthirster, and will have a massive advantage over anyone else. Consequently being difficult to shift from his position.

But nothing makes his position set in stone.

 FinalAnswer wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yes but Angron isn't a match for the most powerful Bloodthirsters, like An'ggrath the Unbound..

Didn't Lorgar beat An'ggrath up back when he was a punk?

According to the Lexicanum it was an Inquisitor who banished An'ggrath.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I
...no.

Yes actually.

Lorgar, before he even fought Corax, aka, still a sissy, beat up An'ggrath the Unbound in Aurelian. In martial combat.

Angron would do so even easier.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aurelian_(Novella)

Go down to Part Four, Chosen of the Pantheon.

Daemon Primarchs are stronger than any Greater Daemon, including the Daemon Lords. Angron is explicitly referred to as Khorne's greatest servant.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I
...no.

Yes actually.

Lorgar, before he even fought Corax, aka, still a sissy, beat up An'ggrath the Unbound in Aurelian. In martial combat.

Angron would do so even easier.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aurelian_(Novella)

Go down to Part Four, Chosen of the Pantheon.

Daemon Primarchs are stronger than any Greater Daemon, including the Daemon Lords. Angron is explicitly referred to as Khorne's greatest servant.

Yeah, but there have been multiple entries in codices and books stating that a lot of other servants of khorne are "the strongest" or "the greatest"


Honestly we can't really know who is more powerful, DPs or GDs, because usually the fluff for them contradict themselves.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Coolyo294 wrote:
It's entirely dependant on the demon prince. A bog standard champion of Khorne that becomes a DP wouldn't be more powerful than a Bloodthirster, but Angron is so powerful that he rolls with a group of Bloodthirsters as his retinue.

Yes but Angron isn't a match for the most powerful Bloodthirsters, like An'ggrath the Unbound.. But someone like Doombreed might actually be a match for him.

Generally it goes, from weakest to strongest.

Newly risen Daemon Prince.

Standard GD:

Named Daemon Princes that have made a name for themselves and grown far stronger.

Named Greater Daemons: Fateweaver and the like

Daemon Primarchs

Greatest Daemons/Greatest DP's (Muddled here)

Are you joking ? Angron ? He isn't match for the bloodthirsters ? Seriously ?

And fight was Sanguinius vs Ka'banda , Lorgar vs An'ggrath...@grey templar

I believe that the Greater Demons fluffwise are stronger in combat. However, for them to remain in the material plane for any amount of time, sacrifices must be made, temples constructed and worship conducted.
Demon princes have a footstill in reality, and thus can remain on a battlefield with much less support if you will, however unless they are a Demon Primarch, are likely not as powerful overall.

Just my two cents on the issue.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I
...no.

Yes actually.

Lorgar, before he even fought Corax, aka, still a sissy, beat up An'ggrath the Unbound in Aurelian. In martial combat.

Angron would do so even easier.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aurelian_(Novella)

Go down to Part Four, Chosen of the Pantheon.

Daemon Primarchs are stronger than any Greater Daemon, including the Daemon Lords. Angron is explicitly referred to as Khorne's greatest servant.

Wow. Aaron Dembski-Bowden usually writes excellent stuff but that's just terrible. How the hell does a non-Daemonic Primarch beat up the most powerful Bloodthirster of all time? An'ggrath has decimated worlds single-handed. This screams of Aaron being a Word Bearers fanboy. But I guess that's natural considering he writes them so much.


I'd also like the mention that one of these incredibly powerful Daemon Primarchs had to bite a pillow as Draigo (one, single, angry Grey Knight) carved his name into his heart. I'm looking at you, Mortarion.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I'd also like the mention that one of these incredibly powerful Daemon Primarchs had to bite a pillow as Draigo (one, single, angry Grey Knight) carved his name into his heart. I'm looking at you, Mortarion.

Draigo would make An'ggrath his nancy whilst tearing down the skull throne as Khorne cowers in the corner, so I don't see your point.

 FinalAnswer wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I'd also like the mention that one of these incredibly powerful Daemon Primarchs had to bite a pillow as Draigo (one, single, angry Grey Knight) carved his name into his heart. I'm looking at you, Mortarion.

Draigo would make An'ggrath his nancy whilst tearing down the skull throne as Khorne cowers in the corner, so I don't see your point.

My point is Matt Ward is a dunce.

Remember that "fluff wise" there isn't even a solid description for what a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon really is. The terms are cookie cutter templates to make the rules definitions simple, so in codex entries one can distuinish between the two. However in numerous novels the terms seem almost interchangeable, in the Soul drinkers first book there is a "daemon prince" of Tzeentch but it is almost god like in power and in no way similar to a traditional mortal turned daemon in appearance. Ingethel Ascended, from First Herectic is a non descript Daemon (definitely not fitting a form any known Greater Daemon) yet it has the power to drive people mad who look at it and is clearly very powerful. The Exalted, frim Soul Hunter, is more or less what we'd call a daemon prince but it appears he achieved that strength initially through possession, then gradually the daemon took over. Basically I'm just pointing out that as always with GW, the fluff is as consistent as it needs to be to make a good story, there aren't clear levels of power as there are in the rules. A lot of tales of strength are meant to be propaganda, legend or hyperbole, retold and repackaged over 10,000 year period, told on a million worlds, vast distances from eachother. The only solid answer lies in the rules.

Canon varies, but as far as I've read a Greater Daemon is always more powerful than a Daemon Prince because the Daemon Prince is held back by its mortal origins. I assume this means that in a 100% level fight with both capable of bringing all their assets to bear the Greater Daemon will win; Greater Daemons on the tabletop tend to be in situations where they're impaired by imperfections in the summoning ritual, though.

Angron had stats in one of the Imperial Armor Apocalypse books, if I remember correctly; he was a bit less powerful than a Bloodthirster.

Angron was a five hundred point model and took Bloodthirsters as bodyguards lol.

 Darth Bob wrote:
Wow. Aaron Dembski-Bowden usually writes excellent stuff but that's just terrible. How the hell does a non-Daemonic Primarch beat up the most powerful Bloodthirster of all time? An'ggrath has decimated worlds single-handed. This screams of Aaron being a Word Bearers fanboy. But I guess that's natural considering he writes them so much.


I'd also like the mention that one of these incredibly powerful Daemon Primarchs had to bite a pillow as Draigo (one, single, angry Grey Knight) carved his name into his heart. I'm looking at you, Mortarion.

Why is it terrible?

There is no precedent for An'ggrath to be unbeatable by a Primarch (He's been bested by a mortal Inquisitor, albeit a powerful, well-equipped mortal Inquisitor), in martial combat.

On the other hand, there is precedent for the bestest of all Bloodthirsters being beaten by a Primarch. Sanguinius beat Ka'Bhanda, and depending on what source you are reading, either he or An'ggrath are the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters.

Draigo is incapable of being bested by any one being in the canon that isn't a deity (And, maybe not even them... )

Codem CSM(4th) page32 wrote:Although the Deamon Primarch are perhaps the most infamous and adhorred Deamon Princes, there are a few who are older and even more powerful.

So if we look at Doombreed as being the oldest of Khorne's Deamon Prince and following the quote more powerfull then the Deamon Primarchs. We can look at his stats vs a Blood Thirster's when they both had rules in the same edition (2nd ed). To which Droombreed has slightly lower stats with some different special abilities. But that's an average Blood Thirster which means Doombreed would be on a lower level then the top tier Blood Thirsters.

I know comparing rules vs fluff is not always the best way to look at it. But it is the only way to get a side by side comparison in this case.

It should be noted though that rules wise a Khorne Deamon World army had to be lead by Doombreed and could include subserviant Blood Thirsters. As opposed to the Deamon Codex that has the army lead by a higher up deamon and subserviant Deamon Princes.

As early as fifth edition, Angron was confirmed as greatest of Khorne's servants, not Doombreed (Who never has been explicitly noted to be the strongest Khorne Daemon Prince). The recent 6e Chaos Marines codex also confirms the Daemon Primarchs as the greatest of Chaos's servants.

Angron takes Bloodthirsters as bodyguards, and commands them. The Bloodthirsters accompanying him were instantly banished by the wave of psychic power the Grey Knights directed at Angron. Angron was not.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Angron was a five hundred point model and took Bloodthirsters as bodyguards lol.

 Darth Bob wrote:
Wow. Aaron Dembski-Bowden usually writes excellent stuff but that's just terrible. How the hell does a non-Daemonic Primarch beat up the most powerful Bloodthirster of all time? An'ggrath has decimated worlds single-handed. This screams of Aaron being a Word Bearers fanboy. But I guess that's natural considering he writes them so much.


I'd also like the mention that one of these incredibly powerful Daemon Primarchs had to bite a pillow as Draigo (one, single, angry Grey Knight) carved his name into his heart. I'm looking at you, Mortarion.

Why is it terrible?

There is no precedent for An'ggrath to be unbeatable by a Primarch (He's been bested by a mortal Inquisitor, albeit a powerful, well-equipped mortal Inquisitor), in martial combat.

On the other hand, there is precedent for the bestest of all Bloodthirsters being beaten by a Primarch. Sanguinius beat Ka'Bhanda, and depending on what source you are reading, either he or An'ggrath are the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters.

Draigo is incapable of being bested by any one being in the canon that isn't a deity (And, maybe not even them... )

It is bad because it drives the already insufferable primarch creep even further. Soon we will see them rip appart Emperor class titans with their bare hands.
Besides that, Hector Rex was supported by a full squad of GK terminators, wielded a blessed sword and the fluff was still bad ( blocking the strikes of a 12metres high creature will not break your arm and send you flying, at least not if you have sufficient plot armour ).
On the other hand we know that Angron was bested in singlecombat by a Grey Knights Captain so perhaps Anggrath simply had a bad day.
On the other hand, we know that a GK Brothercaptain was able to beat Angron in singlecombat so

 KingDeath wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Angron was a five hundred point model and took Bloodthirsters as bodyguards lol.

 Darth Bob wrote:
Wow. Aaron Dembski-Bowden usually writes excellent stuff but that's just terrible. How the hell does a non-Daemonic Primarch beat up the most powerful Bloodthirster of all time? An'ggrath has decimated worlds single-handed. This screams of Aaron being a Word Bearers fanboy. But I guess that's natural considering he writes them so much.


I'd also like the mention that one of these incredibly powerful Daemon Primarchs had to bite a pillow as Draigo (one, single, angry Grey Knight) carved his name into his heart. I'm looking at you, Mortarion.

Why is it terrible?

There is no precedent for An'ggrath to be unbeatable by a Primarch (He's been bested by a mortal Inquisitor, albeit a powerful, well-equipped mortal Inquisitor), in martial combat.

On the other hand, there is precedent for the bestest of all Bloodthirsters being beaten by a Primarch. Sanguinius beat Ka'Bhanda, and depending on what source you are reading, either he or An'ggrath are the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters.

Draigo is incapable of being bested by any one being in the canon that isn't a deity (And, maybe not even them... )

It is bad because it drives the already insufferable primarch creep even further. Soon we will see them rip appart Emperor class titans with their bare hands.
Besides that, Hector Rex was supported by a full squad of GK terminators, wielded a blessed sword and the fluff was still bad ( blocking the strikes of a 12metres high creature will not break your arm and send you flying, at least not if you have sufficient plot armour ).
On the other hand we know that Angron was bested in singlecombat by a Grey Knights Captain so perhaps Anggrath simply had a bad day.
On the other hand, we know that a GK Brothercaptain was able to beat Angron in singlecombat so

Hey, with a lucky chain reaction, a guardsmen with a meltagun can rip apart an Emperor titan in one blow

 KingDeath wrote:
It is bad because it drives the already insufferable primarch creep even further. Soon we will see them rip appart Emperor class titans with their bare hands.

From what I hear, Leman Russ has been headbutting Titans into oblivion even in the older fluff.

Besides that, Hector Rex was supported by a full squad of GK terminators, wielded a blessed sword and the fluff was still bad ( blocking the strikes of a 12metres high creature will not break your arm and send you flying, at least not if you have sufficient plot armour ).

Hector Rex didn't fight An'ggrath with the GKs IIRC, it was a duel.

On the other hand we know that Angron was bested in singlecombat by a Grey Knights Captain so perhaps Anggrath simply had a bad day.

Unless The Emperor's Gift retconned this, Angron was bested in combat by dozens of Grey Knights combining their psychic power and firing a psychic wave that banished Greater Daemons on contact, and stunned Angron enough for the Brother-Captain to behead him.

Aka it didn't happen the way you seem to believe it did.

I'm still not seeing why Primarchs beating up Greater Daemons is bad.