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So, after waiting for whatever warp-induced mail delays there were, I finally got my pre-ordered chaos codex on Thursday, and tried to read it while watching VP debates.

Going through, here are some of my thoughts. I include comparisons to other codexes. I know some people incorrectly believe you can't do this, but I did, so it must be possible. In terms of point viability, I'm pretty much treating ATSKNF and Fearless as a tie. Each has some advantages over the other, but they serve the same purpose.

So, here we go, as I read through.

Artwork
Since we're paying more for the "full cover" codex, this warrants some attention.
Page 57: I'm Abaddon, and my calf is as big as my torso!

That's not really representative of the book as a whole though. Most of the art is pretty good, even if I've seen some of it before.


Warlord Traits
Some good stuff, especially if you think you'll be playing Space Marines. Meh, Warlord traits.

Boons
Another example of the current mentality at GW. We can't balance anything, so we'll hide that fact in a random number table.

Marks
Fairly unchanged from last version. Khorne's changed to first-turn-of-assault only now, instead of a generic +1 attack, not sure I follow why that changed...(Change for change sake? Justify the developers salary?) Wow, point costs changed though. Slaanesh (+I) is 10 points more? +1I is worth 15 points?! How is +1I worth the same as +1T?

Chaos Lord
Wow, he's cheap. 10 points less than a functionally equivalent Space Marine Captain (although missing Combat Tactics, so that's probably fair), Or one better invul save than the same guy from the old codex, but with the option not to take it if you want. Not sure if I need to state the obvious, as I'm late to the party, but he changes the force org slots now too, so that's cool. Definitely seems like he's the choice they're pushing...

Chaos Sorcerer
Also cheap. Statline now matches the Librarian, so no more 3 wounds or BS5. 15 points less than the guy from last ed, if you buy the invul save. He's the first psyker in the game to not even have the option to pick a single power. Compared to the Librarian, he's got the same stats and equipment. Buy him a second mastery level (for a second power) and he's still 15 points less. Go to mastery level 3 and you're 40 points less than the Space Marine guy. So it's not all bad. Not sure the new improved Psychic Hood is worth 15 points, let alone 40.

Daemon Prince
So now we come to the guy they don't want you to take...
55 point increase over the last guy, after buying the power armour. Loss of EW. Loss of Ld (only relevant versus necrons, or if a psyker I guess). Buffs to WS, A and I, but at T5, do you really think he'll survive the shooting phases? Wings increased in points too.

Compared to the Chaos Daemon prince instead of the last guy, he's 65 more expensive at base. Building a more comparable one from Chaos Daemons, we add Unholy Might and Mark of Khorne, and have a guy with better Ld and Eternal Warrior, losing some WS and I - for 30 points less. Conclusion: They've sold enough Daemon Prince models.

Warpsmith
New guy. Another combat guy in what appears to be a shooting game too. Shatter Defenses is cute, but since it doesn't impact Aegis Lines, it's just one more reason for your opponent to take one.

Dark Apostle
Another new guy. Can pass out his Ld, which is kinda cool, but he feels overpriced compared to the other options. Doesn't even have an AP3 weapon, let alone AP2, so good luck winning those challenges against Marines. Not too sure he'll be worth taking.


Chaos Space Marines
More statline standardization with Codex: Marines. Ld reduced compared to prior version. 3 points-per-model discount to make up for not having ATSKNF and Combat Tactics. Given that these guys are meant to hold your objectives, I'm not sure that's a good tradeoff. I guess they can shore this up with an icon, that will be useful exactly as long as that icon survives... I can spend 10 points to roll on a random table at the beginning of the game too. For two extra points, I can take the extra weapon too, so they're costing the same as last version, but with the Ld nerf. I can make a big blob, but am still limited to two non-bolter weapons.

If I take the basic Tac squad w/ missile/flamer, I save 10 whole points over C:SM. I think anyone whose played the game would agree that ATSKNF + Combat Tactics on a scoring unit is worth more than 10 points, so these guys are overpriced compared to a mid-tier codex. Yay!

Chaos Cultists
The Cultist Champion may take a shotgun! Seriously? And this chump has to issue and accept challenges? Even an IG sgt can take a power sword. At least the grunts seem reasonably priced, though the upgrade options are limited and poor. A Heavy Stubber! At least a guard blob can threaten stuff downfield, and has better force multipliers available. Would it have been awful if the Dark Chaplain allowed his unit to re-roll misses or something?

Chosen
Short of being able to take more special/CC weapons, they seem very bland. An extra attack each (plus the extra CCW) is nice, but there are better assault units and this is a shooting game now. Do they come with a good way to get into combat? Not really. So why spend all those points on CC upgrades?

Possessed
Another CC unit. Another random table. Another CC unit with no reliable way to get into combat. At least this codex is providing a lot of options for which subpar unit to take to fill an obsolete battlefield role.

Chaos Terminators
And the nerfing continues. Let's see: Base unit costs 5 points more, -1 penalty to Ld. Minimum size to take a heavy weapon dropped. But I guess that's okay, because Chaos Terminators were soooo good in the last version that they were used for anything other than drop&pop suicide meltas.
Kitted out unit cannot be all champions anymore (although, why you'd do this anymore is beyond me, shooting is better now). No fearless/ATSKNF, Chaos still hasn't mastered the technology required to make a shield, or stick a rocket launcher on your shoulder either. Heavy Flamer costs more, but the ever popular Reaper Cannon is still 25 points. Seriously? For those points, GK get the same S7, double the shots, and rending. (Okay, so the Reaper has 12" more range - which is irrelevant as it's range is not synergistic with any other weapon they can carry. If anyone thinks its worth buying 5 chaos terminators to sit at 36" firing 2 S7 shots a turn, they should take up a new hobby, preferably one that doesn't involve math.)

Hellbrute (Dreadnought)
Finally, something that's better. Not good, but better. I'm sad - they had the opportunity to do more. No Marks for Dreadnought? No Sonic Weapons for Slaaneshy Dreadnought? So, now he's got the same statline as his Loyalist Counterpart. Kind of. Some weapon choices are better or worse, the ever popular Reaper Autocannon makes an appearance, and he can take a power scourge (which is good, because I was confused when they put the entry in for it, as I couldn't find anyone else who could take it). At least Crazed now has some positives, and a trigger, rather than being a giant DON'T USE ME sign.

Mutilators
Just what the new 6th ed shooting game needs, another CC specialist unit. So, I can take six wounds worth of these, deep strike them, and hope I get into combat. Ld 8??? I guess if they were a lot cheaper, they might just be worth it as a distraction. The models are ugly too.

Cult Marines
Now we get to the essence of Chaos, Cult Marines. Because so far, everything that's not Chaos seems strictly inferior to its imperial counterpart in some way. First things first, they're not all troops anymore. This probably doesn't bother too many people, although it's harder to do a unified Black Legion one-of-each list now. You can use the Lord to make the ones you need into troops.

Khorne Berserkers
Nice, minor price reduction. Not nice - attack reduction. God forbid a Khorne Berserker have as many attacks as a Chosen. At least they're still Fearless. Strictly speaking, worse than what we had before. And, again, Ld reduction. Probably doesn't matter, as they're Fearless, but does mean that Necrons have that extra chance to screw with them.

Thousand Sons
There's a stealth price reduction here, the base unit costs a minimum of 12 points less. And their guns may end up being better because of the overall reduction in cover saves. Something better than before.

Plague Marines
Again with the Ld nerf. Interestingly, the squad costs less at the base level, but extra men cost more each. A net 8 point savings at the "proper" unit size (7, for those too young to understand). They get poisoned attacks now too, which is fluffy, but will mean little in actual gameplay.

Noise Marines
Broken record about Ld. Assuming you buy them the extra CCW, it's still a 2 point-per-model savings over last edition, although making Sonic Blasters Salvo weapons means no more shooting then charging. Price reduction for sonic weapons and the addition of Ignore Cover are great, but seriously, I need 10 men to get a blastmaster now? What happened to fluff? What happened to a squad of noise marines being SIX men?

Chaos Rhino
Look Ma, it's a Rhino. Chaos Marines still haven't figured out how to strap a gun to the top of it. All that time in the warp must have addled their senses. I guess Razorbacks are a newer invention than the most recently corrupted chapter.

Chaos Bikers
Like all bikers, 6th ed makes them interesting. And a substantial price decrease over the old codex - 13 points per model! Here we actually have a unit that's cheaper than it's Imperial counterpart even, and with the Bolt Pistol/CCW! How did this sneak past their editors? Now all we need is to let Slaanesh lords on bikes use a Doom Siren. (Ah, how I miss Chaos 3.5, when chosen were Chosen! and Cult Legions were actually Cult Legions) Still, this looks like one of the winners of the codex. (I wonder if this is stereotyping? Most bikers look like they belong to Chaos....)

Chaos Spawn
A ten point reduction in cost is a good start. Marking them is nice. Even a chance to get a save. As Beasts, they might even make it into assault and do something!

Raptors
Another cost drop and Ld tweak, otherwise, very much what they were before. Better than the last chaos codex, still not as good as Blood Angel Assault Marines though, who, for one point more per man get ATSKNF, Scoring, Red Thirst, Combat Squads and Descent of Angels. How are Blood Angel DoA armies faring in 6th?

Warp Talons
So, take the above unit and boost their cost by 12 points-per-model, in exchange for Daemon and Dual Lightning Claws, plus some garbage rule that will never ever come into play intentionally. Is that going to be enough to keep them alive long enough to get them into that fight? I'm not convinced. But the models are kickass.

Helldrake
New Model: Check $74 pricetag: Check Assume it'll be good: Check.

Havoks
The source of Skyfire weapons! Holy!!! So, a MEQ with Ld 8 with a Skyfire Missile costs more than a terminator! There's a stealth price drop here - assuming you don't need your havoks to have a CCW, otherwise, they're the same cost as before, but their stats dropped, along with the costs of their weapons. Autocannons still in, Plasmacannons and Multimeltas still out. Is there any real rational for this? Assuming you stay away from the stupid price missiles, these guys are reasonably priced compared to most similar units. They're still second-fiddle to Long Fangs though.

Obliterators
Ld reduction, 5 point cost drop, must change shots every turn (why??) Can be marked now, so with Nurgle or Tzeentch marks, they will be more survivable. Still a very good unit.

Defiler
This goes into the same category as the Daemon Prince: GW says, "okay, we've sold enough of these now, so include them, but make them suck". They weren't amazing before, and a 45 point increase seems unwarranted. Two point drop in S is largely irrelevant due to using powerfists. Another 25 point increase to swap out for a fourth CCW too. Additions of It Will Not Die doesn't really impress me because AV12 will probably die to Pens rather than be HPed out.

ForgeField
New Guy, no real comparisons. Well, lets try - the Psybolt Rifleman Dread. Same Armor, Same Hullpoints. Forgefiend has new guns. Hades Autocannon, 4 S8 AP4 shots. But he's got two of them! Is that impressive? On average, he's going to get 4 hits. On average, the rifleman's going to get 3.55. So, an extra half-hit per turn. Plus a 5+ invul and It Will Not Die, for 40 more points. Yeah, I can see that. Given the choice between 3 Psyflemen or 2 Forgefiends (with the extra ectoplasm gun), I'm not sure one has the clear advantage over the other. If they're hanging in the comparison, they're worth taking.

Maulerfiend
Unlike this poor guy, who suffers from I3. With grenades and other walkers swinging at I4, I just think he's too much of a risk to die before swinging. Even if he makes it through that, he's got a whopping 2 attacks at WS3. Not exactly what you want out of a combat monster.

Chaos Land Raider
Ten point price hike. Still no other weapon options. Is it that hard for the Infernal techmarines to remove a lascannon and attach a flamer? Can make it daemonically possessed for GW-style fun as it eats your own men! If Splitting fire on a vehicle with two guns is worth 20 points, how is it that Long Fangs get to do it for free?

Chaos Vindicator
Five point price hike. Now costs Five points more than identical vehicle in Space Wolf, and Space Marine codexes. Oh, wait, no, not identical vehicles, the loyalists get a storm bolter too. Is math really this hard?

Chaos Predator
Since we're comparing stuff to Space Marines, oh, here's another one. 15 points more for the Chaos Predator with autocannon, 5 points less for the Chaos Predator with lascannon.


Other stuff

Characters
I like that it's now spelled out that the four cultist named characters impact their armies the way a Lord would. I know this is setting the bar low, but GW's missed it in the past.

Artifacts

Axe of Blind Fury: "Models with Mark of Khorne Only", "Mark of Khorne: Models have Rage", Axe of Blind Fury: The Wielder of the Axe has Rage. Doesn't that go without saying, as he's got the Mark of Khorne. Just asking...

Black Mace AP4 weapon that costs 45 points. Short of being used by a Daemon Prince, this is too much.

Burning Brand Torrent on a AP3 Flamer. Now we're talking. It makes its points if you get the template over 4 marines.

Dimensional Key Looks nice to use with allied daemons, if you get a CC kill before they start landing...

Murder Sword AP3 sword that can pick a target, who then sucks against it. Thereby ensuring that your opponent avoids that fight. Not a bad tool to ensure a trump against someone else's super-hero, but I'd rather have more guns in 6th ed.

Scroll of MagnusGain a new power each turn, at the risk of a wound. In case you didn't have enough randomness in your army.


Other Wargear

Steeds
Nice in general.

Jump Pack
No more wings

Icons
All seem pretty reasonable, although I think that Khorne's re-roll assault range, and Slaanesh's Feel No Pain are the better two. Fearless-as-long-as-the-banner-lives isn't bad either.

Dirge Caster So in the first codex after 6th introduces Overwatch, we find our first way to ignore it.

Daemonic Possession So, I lose a point of BS and WS, and add the chance to eat my transported models, and in exchange, I get to sometimes ignore Shaken and Stunned results. This does not seem like a good tradeoff, even at 0 points. If I got 15 points back for taking this option, I'd consider it, because at least I could use those points to buy the guy whose going to get eaten.


Overall Impression

I think they missed the mark. I'm sad that we still don't have real rules for legions, which should include Cult marines in terminator armour, and on bikes, and marked vehicles. I'm still amazed at how many times they can print rules for the exact same vehicle with point costs all over the place. A Vindicator is a Vindicator is a Vindicator, and really, it shouldn't matter what colour it's painted. Anything that does matter (Fast, for Blood Angels, or Daemonically Possessed, for example) should be addressed separately. I'm also somewhat saddened that we've got more "ten men per gun". Didn't Fulgrim kill Guilliman? Why is Chaos following his rules? I come back to the Noise Marines for this - I've always maintained six-man noise marine units because that's what the fluff says. Now I can't use a Blastmaster without going to ten.

As expected, the big new shiny (expensive) kits are what shines through, with old standby units being relegated to the junk heap. Such is the school of game design at GW.

Pretty much echo's my sentiments as well almost exactly, it's largely the last book with some costs cut here and there and some inexplicable changes just for their own sake in a very pretty package, that leaves almost all the issues people had previously with the old book intact.

Is it me or are you guys comparing the Chaos Marine and the Space Marine codecies getting a bit over-critical?

I think having them as an Allies detatchment isn't too bad. Was really thinking about making a Blood Pact army with the Cultists as the Sons of Sek and the Dark Apostle as Pater Sin or Pater Pain, and have him slinking around with some Possessed as his Ascendants?

I just think you're being a bit too critical when comparing them to the established Space Marines or (in case of the Forgefiend) Grey Knights and it makes you seem like you're ranting rather than making an observation.

My well thought out reply got deleted =/

but he changes the force org slots now too, so that's cool.

Apparently I have a reading comprehension issue. lol I apologize, I don't have my book in front of me or I would look it up myself, but how does the lord change the FOC? I completely missed that on my read throughs and depending on your answer, it could change my thoughts on the book.

Hetelic wrote:
My well thought out reply got deleted =/

Your very well thought out reply was, almost exactly, "QQ moar, ebay your stuff". Nothing of value was lost.

Tycho wrote:

but he changes the force org slots now too, so that's cool.

Apparently I have a reading comprehension issue. lol I apologize, I don't have my book in front of me or I would look it up myself, but how does the lord change the FOC? I completely missed that on my read throughs and depending on your answer, it could change my thoughts on the book.

Makes elites into troops in certain circumstances, that sort of thing.

Makes elites into troops in certain circumstances, that sort of thing.

Ah. Ok, I did see that. You're talking about the rule where a Lord of a certain mark unlocks cult troops of the same mark. I did see that. I thought I had missed something more grandiose than that. Thanks and good review! I would tend to agree with pretty much everything you said.

 Redbeard wrote:
I think they missed the mark. I'm sad that we still don't have real rules for legions, which should include Cult marines in terminator armour, and on bikes, and marked vehicles. I'm still amazed at how many times they can print rules for the exact same vehicle with point costs all over the place. A Vindicator is a Vindicator is a Vindicator, and really, it shouldn't matter what colour it's painted. Anything that does matter (Fast, for Blood Angels, or Daemonically Possessed, for example) should be addressed separately. I'm also somewhat saddened that we've got more "ten men per gun". Didn't Fulgrim kill Guilliman? Why is Chaos following his rules? I come back to the Noise Marines for this - I've always maintained six-man noise marine units because that's what the fluff says. Now I can't use a Blastmaster without going to ten.

As expected, the big new shiny (expensive) kits are what shines through, with old standby units being relegated to the junk heap. Such is the school of game design at GW.

Thanks for the review redbeard. We don't have cult marines specifically in those other units, but you can mark them to follow the god of your choice, so it isn't like we are really missing something. I am kind of glad I can mark terminators with the mark of khorne and not just have them be completely mindless assaulters. As for the vehicle costs I agree with you. GW seems to have little to not internal quality control for any kind of consistency across its books at all. A vindicator should have a set affect on a battle, so why would it cost differently for different armies? Just dumb... Also by now, after 6 editions, they should have unit costs all down to a science based off of base stats, initial equipment and special abilities and limitations. It should be simple to do and easily applied across the board, but instead we get pot luck and who knows what when it comes to comparing units.

Things like the blastmaster option should be based on 10 or *part* of 10. So if you have 5 models you can have 1 blastmaster. If you have 10 models you can have 1 blastmaster. 12 models and you can have 2, on up to 20. Being a long time player I also like unit sizes based on "proper" god related numbers. I do have to say I was very intrigued to see the only deity animosity rules reappear in the daemon prince rules with Khorne and Slaanesh daemon princes hating each other and nurgel and tzeentch daemon princes hating each other. They didn't go really beyond that, though. I wonder if that will make an appearance in a future version of the Daemons codex or not....hard call given GW's lack of consistency.

Generally I don't have issues with the chaos book itself. I'll use it and have fun doing so, but I do still really dislike GW's inconsistency when creating new lists and books. By now (40k 6th edition and WFB 8th edition) these games should be some of the best and most streamlined games on the market, but they aren't even close. Every new version has similar problems with odd rules combos, lack of clarity and excessive power creep through the life of a rules edition...

Skriker

Excellent review, and pretty much my opinion on the codex too. The new CSM is solid, but lacks the EPIK that would make it awesome.

But a side note to the Chosen: these guys are now shooty MSU units, like DE Trueborn. 6 guys, 5 plasma guns, one Rhino and you will have everything you will ever need. Throw in Abaddon, and they will be scoring too.

A slight step up from 5th edition, but lacks the heart that 3.5 had. If its setting the tone for 6th edition I'm not sure I want to be playing the game much anymore in lieu of its competitors.

To me it comes across as stale, as though the game designers wanted to give the impression that things had changed, but remained exactly as they were before. Way... way too much balancing that's aimed to selling previously redundant/new units, and an overall nerf across the board.

I'm incredibly disappointed at the lack of new special rules and weapons, as I'm I not into the number of new units. There's just not enough in there to emphasise what Chaos is about like similar codices (Space Wolves, wolves everywhere perhaps, but at least there's something there, Chaos... where's the daemon forged rifles, giant chaos spawn, etc?).

So, do we assume that the rest of the 6th Edition codices are going to be aimed at the Playstation (or should that be Wii?) generation, or are we going to hold out hope that GW injects a bit of soul into them (that goes past caring about the big bucks)?

 Skriker wrote:

Thanks for the review redbeard. We don't have cult marines specifically in those other units, but you can mark them to follow the god of your choice, so it isn't like we are really missing something.

Sure we are. Can marked khorne bikers take chain axes? Can Marked Slaanesh terminators have sonic weapons? Or marked lords, or vehicles? Can marked tzeentch champions use psychic powers? Do marked nurgle havoks have the option for feel no pain?

These were all options in the 3.5 codex. I still have trays of fully converted slaanesh bikers, terminators and a predator. At least i can still field my sonic dreadnought. (Oh, my bad, hellbrute) using forgeworld rules.

good review . some stuff wasnt talked about, like talons being assault units without frags , but its less then minor stuff and doesnt change the rating of separate choices.

If this had come out at the beginning of 4th edition, people would have been miffed that it lost so much from 3.5 but it would have been seen as a balanced, slightly dull Codex comparable to most of those that came after.

This is 6th though. We have moved on. There are actually Codexes that inspire passion (even if it's just to complain about the fluff).

The new Chaos Codex is like going to a Indian restaurant, and when everyone else is gorging on spicy food of various degrees of digestibility, you get a buttered naan bread. It fills a hole, it's not completely unpleasant, but boy is it dull.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

Thanks for the review redbeard. We don't have cult marines specifically in those other units, but you can mark them to follow the god of your choice, so it isn't like we are really missing something.

Sure we are. Can marked khorne bikers take chain axes? Can Marked Slaanesh terminators have sonic weapons? Or marked lords, or vehicles? Can marked tzeentch champions use psychic powers? Do marked nurgle havoks have the option for feel no pain?

These were all options in the 3.5 codex. I still have trays of fully converted slaanesh bikers, terminators and a predator. At least i can still field my sonic dreadnought. (Oh, my bad, hellbrute) using forgeworld rules.

Not one of those options existed in the last book, so what have you lost again? Nothing. You can model your khorne bikers with chain axes all you want since they are CCWs it just doesn't matter at all. No marked slaanesh characters cannot get sonic weapons. I definitely think the wargear list is a fail on this front, but again no loss from the last codex. Marks of Tzeentch don't turn a model into a psyker so why is not having powers a problem? Want a psychic tzeentch champion? Then take a sorcerer. Marked nurgle havoks don't have the option for feel no pain, but do still get the +1 Toughness. They are NOT plague marines, so why would they have FNP at this stage?

All of these are interesting, but silly complaints since they all went away in a previous CSM change, not this one. Complaining that rules that disappeared YEARS ago didn't magically reappear seems kind of silly to get upset about to me...

Skriker

This "review" seems excessively nit-picky... who slaaneshed in your coffee this morning? I agree some of the stuff is complaint worthy, but much of it is on the things that "could have been" or "were" and only a bit on the actual content.

I tend to agree with Shriker, many of these complaints are silly because they're complaints about changes made the last time around, not this time. Why don't we all just complain that GW doesn't go back to 2nd edition where a Chaos army could take any vehicle from an Imperial codex at a % markup?-That was neat a flavorful rule, but its because the concept and focus have changed. This book is much more cohesive and focused in its scope. Berzerker terminators, etc... are great IF the scope and focus of the book were just a Khornate army... but it isn't. So in that way cult units beyond the main 4 don't make sense because they actually go to dilute everything other than that single flavor. Yes, yes, we could have all 4 cults get these types of units, but then you're diluting undivided and renegades, which are suppose to be more numerous. This is where I think GW was right, by the numbers; there are probably more Grey Knights in the universe than there are Berzerker Terminators, or Sonic Terminators, or whatever... specialized cults just don't seem numerous enough to be represented in a book that has to already cover alot.

Also on the OP's constant issues with LD..."Veterans of the Long War" <--- That rule, restores and brings up the leadership of units that can take it and generally doesn't cost much. That is how this author intends legionaries and superior chaos marines are to be distinguished.

This codex accomplished what I thought needed to happen for Chaos, it needed to be better distinguished visually from Loyalist marine armies and the emphasis on Daemon engines did that. On the other hand I don't think GW took the cult marine units far enough; they're largely the same concept, toned down and balanced... but even in doing that more could have been done to grow their character. Like Berzerkers being able to access more varied close combat weapons... Or allowing Rubric Warrior's Sorcerers to upgrade to higher spell mastery levels. Either way I think the message is clear that GW wants to steer chaos armies away from being cult armies.

Kind of a noob question from a new player. I like using the Cultists, as they are a great cheap distraction to throw at the enemy, but the codex only lists their wargear as "Autopistols" where the one squad i have is definitely carrying autoguns.

Can anyone clarify what's going on there?

 aka_mythos wrote:
This "review" seems excessively nit-picky... who slaaneshed in your coffee this morning? I agree some of the stuff is complaint worthy, but much of it is on the things that "could have been" or "were" and only a bit on the actual content.

I tend to agree with Shriker, many of these complaints are silly because they're complaints about changes made the last time around, not this time.

That's part of the problem. Many of the big issues people had with the previous codex are just as big in this codex. In large part, it was just a copy paste with a 10% points reductions in many instances, which doesn't really address the issues, either in terms of themes, playability, or mechanics of the army.

Of particular issue is that it still tries to hamfist "Renegades" and "Legions" together in a manner that really doesn't do either justice. There's still no Legion Cult units outside of the "Elite Troops" iterations (e.g. no Rubric Terminators, no Plague Lords, no Sonic Dreads, etc). One the whole it still feels watered down, lacking in so much that *could* be with 9 Traitor Legions in the service of Chaos, while other books get just as much variety and new stuff because they like jump-packs or whatnot for their tiny 1000 member warband.

The book feels hestitant and timid, and in large part a whole lot of copy-pasta, and the fact that it didn't address changes made last time around is a big reason why many don't like it.

moldworld wrote:
Kind of a noob question from a new player. I like using the Cultists, as they are a great cheap distraction to throw at the enemy, but the codex only lists their wargear as "Autopistols" where the one squad i have is definitely carrying autoguns.

Can anyone clarify what's going on there?

Autoguns are an upgrade option for +1 ppm.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's part of the problem. Many of the big issues people had with the previous codex are just as big in this codex. In large part, it was just a copy paste with a 10% points reductions in many instances, which doesn't really address the issues, either in terms of themes, playability, or mechanics of the army.

Of particular issue is that it still tries to hamfist "Renegades" and "Legions" together in a manner that really doesn't do either justice. There's still no Legion Cult units outside of the "Elite Troops" iterations (e.g. no Rubric Terminators, no Plague Lords, no Sonic Dreads, etc). One the whole it still feels watered down, lacking in so much that *could* be with 9 Traitor Legions in the service of Chaos, while other books get just as much variety and new stuff because they like jump-packs or whatnot for their tiny 1000 member warband.

The book feels hestitant and timid, and in large part a whole lot of copy-pasta, and the fact that it didn't address changes made last time around is a big reason why many don't like it.

Going to go along with this. One of the biggest complaints I heard about the 4E codex was that it was so bland. It was just 'spiky marines'. Now, GW seems to be trying to make them into something other than 'spiky marines', but they're still bland. Mighty Mutatin' Marines aren't that much more exciting than Spiky Marines... tentacles vs. spikes, urotsukudoji vs pinhead. Meh. Whatevs. At least we have allies and counts-as to add some flavor, but it would be nice to not have to (especially since you have people arguing about if Allies of Convenience can score objectives.)

The Chaos Boon table is just a pain in my side too. Want to play renegades that aren't all warp tainted yet? Tough, no such thing. Don't have any Spawn or DP models? Welp, you better go out and buy a few of each just in case the dice say you need to use one.

So, yeah, there's nothing terribly *wrong* with the codex. It's no more bland than C:SM. I'm sure there are some solid lists in there; maybe nothing that's going to win major tournaments but that's a whole different can of worms that I have no desire to open up. The new C:CSM is hardly giving us the full panoply of the traitor legions though.

 Lansirill wrote:

The Chaos Boon table is just a pain in my side too. Want to play renegades that aren't all warp tainted yet? Tough, no such thing.

Yes there is. They are untainted till you roll your first boon from the table. But yeah, when you start to dabble with chaos, you'll get corrupted eventually.

There is a lot of valid critisism toward this book, but complaining that you cannot play non chaos aligned marines with a codex called Chaos Space Marines is a bit silly. And still that is a complaint I've seen many times.

Skriker wrote:
Not one of those options existed in the last book, so what have you lost again? Nothing.

Ever hear of "opportunity costs"? GW printed the last Chaos Codex in 2007. So, we're probably waiting five years for anything to change. What we don't get is just as important as what we do get.

All of these are interesting, but silly complaints since they all went away in a previous CSM change, not this one. Complaining that rules that disappeared YEARS ago didn't magically reappear seems kind of silly to get upset about to me...

There's nothing magic in this at all. No one expected them to magically reappear, I'm too old to believe in enchanted printing presses. On the other hand, it's quite reasonable to be upset that they didn't listen to the concerns of their customer base. They knew we were upset about the last Chaos codex. They knew we were upset about the specific things I mentioned having been removed from the 3.5 book. I've got a letter from Jervis, in response to one I wrote him, where he states that it's okay that my sonic terminators were removed from the game because I can still use them in Apocalypse games. It's not like they didn't know about these concerns.

So, yeah, we did lose something. We lost the opportunity to have a good 6th ed codex. We lost the opportunity to field real legion armies.

aka_mythos wrote:This "review" seems excessively nit-picky...

If a truthful evaluation of each unit, one by one, is excessively nit-picky, then sure...

I agree some of the stuff is complaint worthy, but much of it is on the things that "could have been" or "were" and only a bit on the actual content.

See above explanation of Opportunity Cost. We got a Meh codex. We're going to be sitting in the shadows of Space Wolves, and Necrons for the next five years. They could have done more with it. They could have used a little math and realized that most units in the book are still overpriced by a point or two per model, compared to their equivalents in Codex: Marines, Codex Space Wolves, and Codex: Blood Angels. They didn't. We lost out.

This book is much more cohesive and focused in its scope. Berzerker terminators, etc... are great IF the scope and focus of the book were just a Khornate army... but it isn't. So in that way cult units beyond the main 4 don't make sense because they actually go to dilute everything other than that single flavor. Yes, yes, we could have all 4 cults get these types of units, but then you're diluting undivided and renegades, which are suppose to be more numerous. This is where I think GW was right, by the numbers; there are probably more Grey Knights in the universe than there are Berzerker Terminators, or Sonic Terminators, or whatever... specialized cults just don't seem numerous enough to be represented in a book that has to already cover alot.

Because it's so diluting to put a rule in that says a model with Mark of Slaanesh may trade a bolter or combi-bolter for a sonic blaster for 3 points, or an autocannon/reaper autocannon for a blastmaster for +20 points? One line of text dilutes the whole book! (Likewise, a Model with Mark of Nurgle may purchase Feel No Pain for X points, a model with Mark of Tzeentch may purchase Inferno Bolters for X points)

Also on the OP's constant issues with LD..."Veterans of the Long War" <--- That rule, restores and brings up the leadership of units that can take it and generally doesn't cost much. That is how this author intends legionaries and superior chaos marines are to be distinguished.

Ah, right, generally +1 point per model. So, when we do the point-by-point comparison and find that the Chaos unit is overpointed, compared to his Imperial counterpart, the solution is to spend an extra point per model to rectify this.

Either way I think the message is clear that GW wants to steer chaos armies away from being cult armies.

No. The message is that GW thinks their players probably already own cult marines, so they won't make much if they feature them. Instead, they figure they'll sell us $80 flyers.

 Kingsley wrote:

moldworld wrote:
Kind of a noob question from a new player. I like using the Cultists, as they are a great cheap distraction to throw at the enemy, but the codex only lists their wargear as "Autopistols" where the one squad i have is definitely carrying autoguns.

Can anyone clarify what's going on there?

Autoguns are an upgrade option for +1 ppm.

Thank you so much. I haven't had a great chance to dig into the new codex yet.

btw, the Dimensional Key does not work on allied daemons as it states that it only affects units from "this codex".

Personally, if I was playing Chaos Marines, I'd run 1-2 mid sized units of Cultists and use them as meat shields for my other units to advance behind. And probably a Heldrake or 2 with baleflamers.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
btw, the Dimensional Key does not work on allied daemons as it states that it only affects units from "this codex".

Personally, if I was playing Chaos Marines, I'd run 1-2 mid sized units of Cultists and use them as meat shields for my other units to advance behind. .

this is exactly what I'm doing

 Crimson wrote:

 Lansirill wrote:

The Chaos Boon table is just a pain in my side too. Want to play renegades that aren't all warp tainted yet? Tough, no such thing.

Yes there is. They are untainted till you roll your first boon from the table. But yeah, when you start to dabble with chaos, you'll get corrupted eventually.

There is a lot of valid critisism toward this book, but complaining that you cannot play non chaos aligned marines with a codex called Chaos Space Marines is a bit silly. And still that is a complaint I've seen many times.

And while we're at it, why are we even using them outside of amphibious assaults? They're marines after all. I suppose they're SPACE marines so they could be working in space too. Why in the world are they on Planet Dustbowl? Playing with italics is a bit silly too.

Here's the thing. There is no Codex: Renegade Space Marine or Codex: Traitor Space Marine, yet such things certainly exist and some people want to play them. C:CSM isn't quite a perfect fit, nor is C:SM. I tend to think they have more in common with Chaos Space Marines than loyalist Space Marines (or at least as far as the IoM is concerned they do) so I think it's more natural to stick my renegades into C:CSM; plus if they happen to be not quite so squeaky clean they can take something good and Chaosy that way. You no longer have the option to play that way unless you want to view the Chaos Boon table as a purely game mechanics construct and ignore it fluff-wise, which is certainly possible.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's part of the problem. Many of the big issues people had with the previous codex are just as big in this codex. In large part, it was just a copy paste with a 10% points reductions in many instances, which doesn't really address the issues, either in terms of themes, playability, or mechanics of the army.

Of particular issue is that it still tries to hamfist "Renegades" and "Legions" together in a manner that really doesn't do either justice. There's still no Legion Cult units outside of the "Elite Troops" iterations (e.g. no Rubric Terminators, no Plague Lords, no Sonic Dreads, etc). On the whole it still feels watered down, lacking in so much that *could* be with 9 Traitor Legions in the service of Chaos, while other books get just as much variety and new stuff because they like jump-packs or whatnot for their tiny 1000 member warband.

The book feels hestitant and timid, and in large part a whole lot of copy-pasta, and the fact that it didn't address changes made last time around is a big reason why many don't like it.

This is what I'm talking about when I say scope. Those types of units only make sense when you're doing an entire Codex just focused on a particular god, or even collectively emphasizing god-cults. GW wants a codex that pushes mixed armies, representing renegades and legions only in general. I don't think the treatment of Legion/Renegade is hamfisted, its just not as big a deal. Rules like "Veterans of the Long War" and the hit to LD that's then restored as well as "hatred (space marines)" do that very concisely. They might not represent specific legions but they very plainly give the player the tools to make an army of those older veteran chaos marines. The options for bolter/bolt pistol/close combat weapon, further allow the player to thematically distinguish their basic troops. Marks and Icons create a means by which a continuum is established to allow units varying degrees of veneration of a chaos and the progression into corruption. This gives Chaos Space Marines a unit that on one level is more flexible and on another more broadly capable of representing Chaos Space marines at different points in their existence. My point is that what generally needed is there, its just not the forced distinction and elevation of armies that 3.5ed gave us or the self justification loyalist codices go through to explain why they deserve a separate book. A Chaos Space Marines codex has to be concise, despite a lot of disperate concepts.
These arguements are as silly as if I were to complain everytime the Loyalist Marine codex was redone that I can't build a 10th company army with slightly more veteran scouts. Its a narrow flavor and like cult terminators don't exactly jump out as bringing anything thematic to the table. I said all this before the codex came out but, cult terminators just add this unnecessary level of redundancy when it makes far more sense for the Elite of the Chaos cults, to be more distinctive than just jumping into the next best armor. Its additionally that lack of thematic value that drives GW away from doing what's effectively more of the same.

I can agree, that this Codex is the one we should have had last edition and that it deserved to grow more than it did, but that still doesn't justify why Cult-terminators or similar units should be included and how that ruins what we have. We should have more, but it doesn't mean what we have is bad, and it doesn't necessarily mean we deserve cookie cutter concepts. While I wasn't a fan of the minis, I think Warp Talons were a good new concept that grew the raptor cults into something that actually carried forms of corruption and mutation. It grew the Raptor's concept in a way that just giving terminator armor to every god-cult fails.

This is an example of why cult-terminators fail on a certain level. I play a slaanesh army, I converted sonic-terminators which I now use as obliterators. Had GW retained in the codex sonic-terminators as a unit or option, I end up with a unit effectively filling the same role as obliterators. Or Khornate terminators filling the same niche as Mutilators. These are nice flavorful units, but because an undivided and generic unit already fills the niche there isn't a need for the redundancy. Atleast now unlike the previous book we can give those units the upgrades to make the generics move closer to being representative of what you'd want. Beyond this in a single book it becomes a smorgasbords of mutually exclusive, niche units, filling the overly similar roles to pre-existing and more widely sellable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redbeard wrote:

Skriker wrote:
Not one of those options existed in the last book, so what have you lost again? Nothing.

Ever hear of "opportunity costs"? GW printed the last Chaos Codex in 2007. So, we're probably waiting five years for anything to change. What we don't get is just as important as what we do get.
...

I agree some of the stuff is complaint worthy, but much of it is on the things that "could have been" or "were" and only a bit on the actual content.

See above explanation of Opportunity Cost. We got a Meh codex. We're going to be sitting in the shadows of Space Wolves, and Necrons for the next five years. They could have done more with it. They could have used a little math and realized that most units in the book are still overpriced by a point or two per model, compared to their equivalents in Codex: Marines, Codex Space Wolves, and Codex: Blood Angels. They didn't. We lost out.

I'm not sure you're quite presenting "opportunity cost" correctly. An example of "opportunity cost" would be to say had GW not done mutilators (since those models are fugly) we could have gotten something better. It is the weight that scarcity of resources imposes on a foregone choice. Your issues seem largely arguements for having more, but I've been saying that given the limitation of both what physically fits and fits on the basis of fairness prohibits the book from extending the scope beyond where it is. I have no doubt GW would have loved to include more, but they're now limiting what they include to what they can release in a single big release and a later small release... while not wanting to include units they can't properly support.

 Redbeard wrote:

We lost the opportunity to have a good 6th ed codex. We lost the opportunity to field real legion armies.

...I think it is a good codex. I think I can represent a Legionarie chaos army.

 Redbeard wrote:
[
Because it's so diluting to put a rule in that says a model with Mark of Slaanesh may trade a bolter or combi-bolter for a sonic blaster for 3 points, or an autocannon/reaper autocannon for a blastmaster for +20 points? One line of text dilutes the whole book! (Likewise, a Model with Mark of Nurgle may purchase Feel No Pain for X points, a model with Mark of Tzeentch may purchase Inferno Bolters for X points)

No one thing is diluting, but having 4 things in the temrinator entry kinda does... having those similar 4 things in other places kinda does... especially when similar modifiers already exist. You don't just create a situation where one unit is being used in a great number of ways, but where that then invalidates or diminishes the need for other units.

 Redbeard wrote:
Ah, right, generally +1 point per model. So, when we do the point-by-point comparison and find that the Chaos unit is overpointed, compared to his Imperial counterpart, the solution is to spend an extra point per model to rectify this.

Well by your own admission just got the book, go play it. I don't think 1pt for Vets. of the long war is an issue. We still have cheaper troops, before any further upgrades and the untis still worthwhile when having to choose between bolt pistols, bolters, and close combat weapons. Most people are calling our basic troop one of the a majorly cost effective part of the book, so I'm letting you know you're in the minority on this.

 aka_mythos wrote:
... I think Warp Talons were a good new concept that grew the raptor cults into something that actually carried forms of corruption and mutation. It grew the Raptor's concept in a way that just giving terminator armor to every god-cult fails.

See, here, I cannot agree with you. First of all, Warp Talons add very very little to the game that simply allowing raptors to buy Lightning Claws wouldn't have added.

Second, they're a crap unit that's wasting space in the codex. They've got a special rule that does something if they land within 6" of an opponent that they can neither assault nor charge the turn they land. Why would anyone want to do this? If you have to wait until the following turn to assault anyway, perhaps you should do something like try and land behind terrain, or at least far enough away that you're not risking mishaps. And, they're missing grenades, so they get to swing after anyone in cover, which is exactly where I'll put my men when I see you deep striking near me.

For this, you pay 30 points/man. For a one wound model with one attack on its profile and no gun, in a game that's progressing more towards shooting than assault.

And so, why is this a better use of all the pages that it takes to describe Warp Talons than simply using that space to enable cult terminators (one line per god upgrade option), and giving normal Raptors an option to take Lightning Claws. You could even keep the daemonic aspect by giving raptors the ability to purchase the Daemon rule for 5 points/man.

Warp Talons are a prime example of what's wrong with this codex. They gave us something that's overpriced, that we didn't ask for, that doesn't work in the current game environment, instead of something we (longtime chaos legion players) had been asking for and hoping for.

... Beyond this in a single book it becomes a smorgasbords of mutually exclusive, niche units, filling the overly similar roles to pre-existing and more widely sellable units.

You think mutilators are widely salable? You're the first person I've met who doesn't see them as crappy overpriced models for a crappy overpriced unit. All they are is a new head and arm on the horribly outdated (and still finecast-only) obliterator, suffering the same problem as warp talons: they're a costly sub-par assault unit in a shooting game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Well by your own admission just got the book, go play it. I don't think 1pt for Vets. of the long war is an issue. We still have cheaper troops, before any further upgrades and the untis still worthwhile when having to choose between bolt pistols, bolters, and close combat weapons. Most people are calling our basic troop one of the a majorly cost effective part of the book, so I'm letting you know you're in the minority on this.

Base Chaos Space Marines are not cost-effective compared to similar units from other codexes. No amount of opinion can change this fact. They may be one of the most cost-effective choices available in this codex. That simply shows that this codex is not that good.

Chaos Space Marine: 13 points. 14 if you want Ld comparable to the old codex. 16 if you want Ld and weapons comparable to the old codex. Guess what, the Chaos Marines in the old book were 15. We're LESS cost effective than in the old codex, and we weren't even cost effective in that codex. Were Chaos Space Marines a top-tier codex before? Nothing's changed. We're still mediocre at best.

Space Wolves get everything we get, plus Acute Senses, plus Counter-attack, plus ATSKNF. How are we Cost Effective?

Yeah, maybe the troops are cost effective compared to the other things in this book, because everything else in this book is overpriced too. But you're not going to be playing against other Chaos armies, not often, not at tournaments. Because other armies DO IT BETTER. And 'Allies' simply means that the things we could do that no one else could do (alone), such as fielding a big blob of cultists with power armour backup, are achievable by anyone with access to IG allies.

Essentially, it's the same as the 5th ed codex, with a few unnecessary new models, a couple of price cuts, more nerfs, and a few outright removals.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's part of the problem. Many of the big issues people had with the previous codex are just as big in this codex. In large part, it was just a copy paste with a 10% points reductions in many instances, which doesn't really address the issues, either in terms of themes, playability, or mechanics of the army.

Of particular issue is that it still tries to hamfist "Renegades" and "Legions" together in a manner that really doesn't do either justice. There's still no Legion Cult units outside of the "Elite Troops" iterations (e.g. no Rubric Terminators, no Plague Lords, no Sonic Dreads, etc). On the whole it still feels watered down, lacking in so much that *could* be with 9 Traitor Legions in the service of Chaos, while other books get just as much variety and new stuff because they like jump-packs or whatnot for their tiny 1000 member warband.

The book feels hestitant and timid, and in large part a whole lot of copy-pasta, and the fact that it didn't address changes made last time around is a big reason why many don't like it.

This is what I'm talking about when I say scope. Those types of units only make sense when you're doing an entire Codex just focused on a particular god, or even collectively emphasizing god-cults. GW wants a codex that pushes mixed armies, representing renegades and legions only in general. I don't think the treatment of Legion/Renegade is hamfisted, its just not as big a deal. Rules like "Veterans of the Long War" and the hit to LD that's then restored as well as "hatred (space marines)" do that very concisely. They might not represent specific legions but they very plainly give the player the tools to make an army of those older veteran chaos marines. The options for bolter/bolt pistol/close combat weapon, further allow the player to thematically distinguish their basic troops. Marks and Icons create a means by which a continuum is established to allow units varying degrees of veneration of a chaos and the progression into corruption. This gives Chaos Space Marines a unit that on one level is more flexible and on another more broadly capable of representing Chaos Space marines at different points in their existence. My point is that what generally needed is there, its just not the forced distinction and elevation of armies that 3.5ed gave us or the self justification loyalist codices go through to explain why they deserve a separate book. A Chaos Space Marines codex has to be concise, despite a lot of disperate concepts.
These arguements are as silly as if I were to complain everytime the Loyalist Marine codex was redone that I can't build a 10th company army with slightly more veteran scouts. Its a narrow flavor and like cult terminators don't exactly jump out as bringing anything thematic to the table. I said all this before the codex came out but, cult terminators just add this unnecessary level of redundancy when it makes far more sense for the Elite of the Chaos cults, to be more distinctive than just jumping into the next best armor. Its additionally that lack of thematic value that drives GW away from doing what's effectively more of the same.

I can agree, that this Codex is the one we should have had last edition and that it deserved to grow more than it did, but that still doesn't justify why Cult-terminators or similar units should be included and how that ruins what we have. We should have more, but it doesn't mean what we have is bad, and it doesn't necessarily mean we deserve cookie cutter concepts. While I wasn't a fan of the minis, I think Warp Talons were a good new concept that grew the raptor cults into something that actually carried forms of corruption and mutation. It grew the Raptor's concept in a way that just giving terminator armor to every god-cult fails.

This is an example of why cult-terminators fail on a certain level. I play a slaanesh army, I converted sonic-terminators which I now use as obliterators. Had GW retained in the codex sonic-terminators as a unit or option, I end up with a unit effectively filling the same role as obliterators. Or Khornate terminators filling the same niche as Mutilators. These are nice flavorful units, but because an undivided and generic unit already fills the niche there isn't a need for the redundancy. Atleast now unlike the previous book we can give those units the upgrades to make the generics move closer to being representative of what you'd want. Beyond this in a single book it becomes a smorgasbords of mutually exclusive, niche units, filling the overly similar roles to pre-existing and more widely sellable units.

I see this a bit differently. We have the distinction of Cult vs Marked already there, and there are reasons for it (e.g. Rubrics are completely different from a marine dedicated to Tzeentch), and thus the current implementation feels incomplete and/or half-assed, and could be implemented relatively easily (e.g. May upgrade Rubric marines to Rubric terminators for +18ppm, Noise Marines may be taken as Noise Havocs and are moved to Heavy Support and may take up to 4 Blastmasters, etc) Additionally, the Cult units tell the story of Traitors and the remnants of a lost age, not merely that of Mutation. Regardless, having Cult units in one place but not in others makes for weird armies and some unnecessary cognitive dissonance (why doesn't my Lord have the same gifts and rewards as my grunts?)

Mutilators feel...very forced, unnecessary in the extreme, they don't feel particularly useful and they feel contrived for their own sake. If some things overlap, so what? It's not like they don't do so in other books, and Chaos has long been known for heavy CC units. I also don't agree that they'd necessarily overlap in role, Sonic Terminators are generally going to be much more anti-infantry oriented while Oblits are all-rounders and particularly more AT/Anti-MC oriented. I'll agree that the Warp Talons are rather interesting, and as much as I hate the model I do like the fluff for the Heldrake. I'm not against new things, but not all of them are great additions either. Likewise, VotLW, while nice in concept, in execution feels forced, like the cut the Ld on units was simply to justify VotLW.


Above all, The Chaos Space Marines aren't just about c'thulu-esque mutation and random insanity, it's also those who were once the greatest amongst mankind, the very heroes who forged the Imperium with their toil and their blood and their sacrifice, who now toil and bleed and sacrifice to tear it down, willingly accepting damnation and slavery in the service of dark powers in exchange for the power to continue their long war, and how ultimately their original tendencies have evolved and been exaggerated by those dark powers. Very little about this book evokes that at all, it's still very much "evil marines", it's just, instead of being spiky, they've got tubes and tentacles and weird fleshy things.

 Lansirill wrote:

Here's the thing. There is no Codex: Renegade Space Marine or Codex: Traitor Space Marine, yet such things certainly exist and some people want to play them. C:CSM isn't quite a perfect fit, nor is C:SM. I tend to think they have more in common with Chaos Space Marines than loyalist Space Marines (or at least as far as the IoM is concerned they do) so I think it's more natural to stick my renegades into C:CSM; plus if they happen to be not quite so squeaky clean they can take something good and Chaosy that way. You no longer have the option to play that way unless you want to view the Chaos Boon table as a purely game mechanics construct and ignore it fluff-wise, which is certainly possible.

I'm still not getting this. Being a renegade is just background. What sort of rule support you'd expect for it? If you take all chaos stuff (boons, marks, demonic units, chaos artefacts and rewards) out of Chaos Space Marines, what is left? Not much. I fail to see how you cannot adequately represent renegade Space Marines with one of the many loyalist marine codices; hell, some of those chapters are borderline renegade anyway.