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Hey guys, I'm a big fan of using the reasonable FW models in normal play and a friend asked about using a SuperHeavy in normal play. After some snooping I found
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf
Which states each Structure point = 3 Hull Points amongst other changes to make it fit into normal play with 6th Ed.

How would you guys feel about someone bringing a Super Heavy to a normal game? Obviously it'll go player by player, but I wanted to see how most people felt about it before I started looking at picking up a Super heavy too haha

The problem is, it will end up being you with a super heavy and a few units, vs a whole army. All that will happen will be him shooting the heavy and the heavy shooting back, really will only work in 3k+ apocalypse

Those changes are for Appoc games in 6th edition.

As for bringing a Super heavy to a normal 40k game, just don't.


Super heavies are balanced for Appoc rules and restrictions. They arn't balanced for games using FoCs.

That said, you can house rule some things to make it work. Like give the person without the Super Heavy a Strategic Asset, or let both people take a Super Heavy.

There is also a scenerio with a single super heavy trying to exit the opposite table edge and the opposing 1500 point army tries to stop it.


Depending on the Super Heavy, it can be very unbalanced.

A 750 point Warhound Titan can easily annhilate 1000+ points of the opposing army in a single salvo. D-weapons are just that powerful. Not to mention the Titan will easily shrug off anything a normal army can bring to the field. Only something like 9 Broadsides could hope to give something like a Titan pause for thought. And then if the Titan goes first its going to eliminate the threat to itself first and then lay waste to the enemy army.


Just to put it in perspective, a Warhound titan. Its the smallest titan there is.

It has 2 guns, of which the Turbo-laser destructor is most common. Twin-destructors gives the titan 4 Destroyer Large blasts each turn, firing at 2 seperate targets if desired.

The Titan also has 3 Void Shields, 12 hull points, 4 Structure Points, is AV14/13/12, and can move 12" a turn.

All that for 3 landraiders in point costs.


I'd happily take one of these puppies against a 2k list with confidance of winning.

That depends on the superheavy.

The "small" superheavies, like the Malcador, are garbage. They're barely better than standard tanks, and they cost a lot more points. Not only would I allow my opponent to bring one, I'd encourage them to spend all of their heavy support slots on them to weaken their list. I've used mine in standard 40k games, and I can't think of a time where they've ever done much better than soaking up a lot of anti-tank fire because my opponent was afraid of the big tank.

The Baneblade-size superheavies are powerful, but probably balanced as long as your opponent knows they're coming and can prepare appropriately. They have big guns, but they're a lot of points in a single unit and even with the secondary weapons they're not engaging more than 1-2 targets a turn with any real firepower. It would suck to fight one when you're used to a metagame where tanks are rare, but if you're prepared to deal with 3x Leman Russes you can take down a Baneblade. And of course if you know it's coming and bring dedicated anti-tank units like drop pods full of combi-melta Sternguard that Baneblade is going to be lucky to get a single shot off before it dies.

Titans are completely broken. GW made them absurdly cheap for what you get in an effort to get people to scratchbuild them (or buy expensive FW kits) and get them on the table, and they're not even close to balanced for standard 40k. You might be able to deal with one if you know it's coming and put everything into anti-tank, but it's not going to be a very fun game. Either you immediately wipe out the titan and win easily, or you start removing entire handfuls of models at a time until you lose.

Yeah I started actually looking at it and the Eldar Revanant has 9 Structure points and gets 4 S 5" blasts... with being instadeath, ignores cover, autowounds... yeah that's rough.

Also I didn't make this clear, but it would be a deal where I'd obviously discuss it with my opponents first, meaning they'd be able to craft their list with this in mind.

I agree completely that Titans should be a no-go.

Baneblade level tanks make sense to me. There should always be "I will not play that unit no matter what" option. I wouldn't play against the Land Raiders with Ceramite Plating. That makes them neigh indestructable as Melta is the go to for most peoples' anti-tank. Completely nullifying that is rough...

But if someone you had never before said "I'm going to play a non-Titan Apoc model, here are a copy of the rules for Apoc models in 6th ed, is that ok?" would you be ok with it?
What if it was someone you played against regularly?

I just don't want to be like Hey I'm bringing a Lynx and let them list tailor me down. But maybe that's just because Eldar only having AV12 is something that really worries me...

For standard pick up games, super heavies are a no no. They don't even fit into a Force Org chart, so it'd be cheating to bring one.

In a non-standard "Hey, mind if I bring my Thunderhawk?" game, pretty much anything goes.

Also I didn't make this clear, but it would be a deal where I'd obviously discuss it with my opponents first, meaning they'd be able to craft their list with this in mind.

lol I can almost see it . dude with a SW army for 1500 , someone comes up to him and say "am deploying titants" and he does what then ? buys a units and speed paints them ?

Most super-heavies aren't really any good, or, at least, don't offer enough advantages over regular units to be worth taking over those units. Any player showing up with a Malcador or even a Macharius isn't going to have much of an advantage over you. If he spends equal points in Russes he would probably have a better result. Then add in the 'fear factor' and the fact that people will spend a disproportionate amount of time and effort attempting to kill your super-heavy and you have a vehicle that won't last as long as it should nor have the impact you want it to have.

The best super-heavies are the ones that can do multiple things - the Baneblade and Hellhammer are the only two that can really do that - because they're not a big hull with One Big Gun. They've got lots of diverse weapons and can affect targets near and far with decent amounts of fire power. A Baneblade that loses its main gun still has 3 TL-Heavy Bolters, 2 Lascannons and a friggin' Demolisher cannon! On the other hand once the Volcano Cannon on a Shadowsword is gone or the Pulsar Lance on a Scorpion they just become very large very expensive tanks with minor anti-personnel weapons.

There are super-heavies that don't belong in regular games, but they are usually the kind that have something in common with Saturn's largest moon...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


There are super-heavies that don't belong in regular games, but they are usually the kind that have something in common with Saturn's largest moon...

I see what you did there

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1570287a_Spearhead_Expansion.pdf

Obviously this will require some updates and corrections with current rules. But Enjoy, I used this in 5th and it was a lot of fun for casual games.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Then add in the 'fear factor' and the fact that people will spend a disproportionate amount of time and effort attempting to kill your super-heavy and you have a vehicle that won't last as long as it should nor have the impact you want it to have.

Yeah, my poor Malcador. $150 and countless hours of painting and every time I've used it I just get an expensive crater. The only one I've ever had any luck with is the Minotaur, and only because I can hide it out of LOS so it doesn't die immediately.

It's just a game. Go for it. It is not like anything horrible will happen if it turns out it was not balanced.

 Peregrine wrote:
That depends on the superheavy.

The "small" superheavies, like the Malcador, are garbage. They're barely better than standard tanks, and they cost a lot more points. Not only would I allow my opponent to bring one, I'd encourage them to spend all of their heavy support slots on them to weaken their list. I've used mine in standard 40k games, and I can't think of a time where they've ever done much better than soaking up a lot of anti-tank fire because my opponent was afraid of the big tank.

I thought you were being over the top, then I looked at the Malcador rules...yeah. That thing is rubbish. If it were 100 points less, it'd still be inferior to a vanilla Russ. Has pathetic shooting and front armour 13...on a 270 point vehicle. Yikes.

you already know my opinion on this. if its a FW unit with the 40k stamp, its good. if its a baneblade or smaller, maybe, but it would need to be discussed. anything bigger, and its a no go.

If there is a balance concern, the super heavy could start off damaged as part of a custom scenario as well. Reduced weaponry and a few hull points gone to make the destruction of the super heavy the objective for the opposing force.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There are super-heavies that don't belong in regular games, but they are usually the kind that have something in common with Saturn's largest moon...

I won't lie, but I was confused for way too long on that haha further proof it was a good one

 hivetyrant765 wrote:
you already know my opinion on this. if its a FW unit with the 40k stamp, its good. if its a baneblade or smaller, maybe, but it would need to be discussed. anything bigger, and its a no go.

Shut up Jay, no one wants your opinion! Oh wait.... yes I do! Obviously I don't own any but a couple guys at the shop do and we'll probably try some out.



Overall, most people seem ok with at least discussing the idea, rather than just outright saying no to most things, which is great!

The new rule converting structure points to hull points made superheavies a lot easier to kill now. I think most of the lighter superheavies (just about anything up to and including baneblades) would be just fine in normal 40K, with a few exceptions. I would argue that any D weapon (especially those with templates) does not belong in normal games of 40K, though. Anyone who thinks a Malcador would be overpowered in 40K needs a wake up call, preferably one that involves an old metal dreadnought in a sock.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I would argue that any D weapon (especially those with templates) does not belong in normal games of 40K, though.

Good point! The Shadowsword (S:10 AP:1 No Cover 10" blast) would sure change people's mind about it pretty quickly huh?

I think superheavies (barring titans) are fine. People tend to overract to them though, and are afraid of what they don't know. In reality, though, the 500 point baneblade is probably less useful, and less damaging, than 3 150 point vanilla russes, which would have 3 main weapons, and 3 different targets for more saturation. Really, bringing a superheavy tank is fun, but probably less competitive than bringing it's equivalent worth in regular tanks. If your opponent has an all comer's list, taking out the tank you put a third of your points in shouldn't be a problem.
And remember, it's about fun, if you think giant tanks are fun (me ) play them. If they make it less fun, don't play em. Find an opponent that shares your view and you're good to go.
Just my opinion though.

People tend to overract to them though, and are afraid of what they don't know. In reality, though, the 500 point baneblade is probably less useful, and less damaging, than 3 150 point vanilla russes, which would have 3 main weapons, and 3 different targets for more saturation.

yeah you just take creed , something with a huge blast D class weapon come out of reservs vaporize one objective or the cluster where opponents anti tank units are . And then you just have 2-3 turns of shoting which cant be stoped .


unless of course you player a necron scyth wing . then you lol at supper heavies . D class ? lol cant snipe fire am immune . you want to shot at my storm lord ? good luck its night fight and he sight behind the bastion , and bastion is empty so no shoting at it . imperial/chaos troops dead? enjoy eating death rays and warriors double taping and taking down your hull points. But not everyone plays necron or IG .

You'd like to bring a superheavy against me? *Shrug* Sure-just make sure you have a legal army with it (HQ+2 troops), and let me know ahead of time with permission to tailor my list. Expect lots of BA meltaguns/dante/infernus pistols.

Yeah, Super Heavies really just have high damage output. They go down far easier then most people think they would.

A warboss with a PK can easily wreck a Warhound Titan by himself when he charges. If he has a Nob helping him its almost assured.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
... with permission to tailor my list...

Tailor your list?

You'd tailor your list if someone brought a Malcador? A Macharius?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
... with permission to tailor my list...

Tailor your list?

You'd tailor your list if someone brought a Malcador? A Macharius?

I...don't even know what those are... pardon my ineptitude master, my 40k-fu has been weakened by a disturbance in the force...



Did I mention I love your company (FFG) too?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I...don't even know what those are... pardon my ineptitude master, my 40k-fu has been weakened by a disturbance in the force...

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Super_Heavy_Tanks/MALCADOR-WITH-BATTLECANNON____.html

Pretty much a Leman Russ with AV 13/12/11 and 2 SP (so on average not much more durable), and the ability to take sponson ACs/LCs for a lot of points. Oh, and it costs another 85 points. IOW, it's one of those models you take because it looks cool, not because you want to win a game.

But the Malacdor has Heavy Stubber sponsons! It's GOTTA be awesome, right? Infernus looks good if Creed outflanked it, ya?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/Infernus.pdf

Yup, outflank it and hope the enemy makes it explode, then boom! Apocalytic explosion in their deployement zone.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yup, outflank it and hope the enemy makes it explode, then boom! Apocalytic explosion in their deployement zone.

Oh man, and with the Infernus that's even more lucky... might have to try that

Its okay, bring the titan, i'll bring tank hunting gauss weapons,death rays, and teleporting haywire squads, and lol hard