Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What if they were still alive but in hiding?

So what if they are? They're never going to be brought back.

What if they were hiding in the army as squad leaders or trainers?

Current theory is that they were rolled over into the ultramarines.

The HH books pretty much establish they're gone and the Primarchs knew what happened to them.

That being said, GW will not do anything with them for quite some time. I won't say "never' though. Revealing them would be not a franchise-ending event like defeating Abaddon or the Tyranids. Rather it'd just be something to start milking after the Horus Heresy franchise finally dies out years from now.

That is what I predict personally. After the last BL HH novel and last FW Primarch Model/Heresy rulebook are dust, if GW is still around they'll start up a whole new sub-franchise on the events of the 2 missing Primarchs. GW will flesh out the universe, but not progress it. Not all that long ago, the Horus Heresy was but a myth with a few loose references here and there. Now look at what we know.

colonelscout wrote:
What if they were hiding in the army as squad leaders or trainers?

The Imperial Guard might be a beurocratic mess, but I'm pretty sure they're notice 10ft tall immortal supermen in the ranks.

 -Loki- wrote:

colonelscout wrote:
What if they were hiding in the army as squad leaders or trainers?

The Imperial Guard might be a beurocratic mess, but I'm pretty sure they're notice 10ft tall immortal supermen in the ranks.

Naaaah the supermen would just say "you didnt see anything (while shaking fist)" and the guardsmen would be like "see what?"

Pretty sure the HH books have said more or less they got absorbed into other legions or wiped out.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Pretty sure the HH books have said more or less they got absorbed into other legions or wiped out.

They're said no such things. They've made vague references to the swelling of the Ultramarines ranks coinciding with the sanction of one of the legions, but they simply refer to them as 'the Purged' and 'the Lost'. The idea is to drop hints but keep is ambiguous.

I thought some of the short stories had been a bit more then vague myself.

I just want a hint (better hint) as to what happened to them, it don't need to be on the nose or fluffed out. Just tell us GW

I would assume this is one of the many details that are fully intended to remain unresolved, specifically because players and novel writers are supposed to come up with their own individual ideas for it.

It's called potential!

It's been potential for toooo long, they got so much it's dripping from their ears. What fans write on the matter is always dissmissed as gak, well maybe it would be if you write your own version GW at least they're trying! Anyway rant over (not aimed at anyone just GW)

Themanwiththeplan wrote:What fans write on the matter is always dissmissed as gak

That's because the fandom has a huge issue in that a majority of it still seems to believe in an "official" version of the setting, which does not exist and is not intended to exist. GW wanted players to make the setting their own from the start - instead we got thousands of people uplifting codices and outsourced novels to a non-existing Pillar of Holy Canon that brooks no deviation, even when those books constantly contradict each other.

In a way, the internet may be part of the phenomenon, as "back then" the players were not able to network and exchange information or opinions as fast as they do today. Coming up with your own fluff and using it in a game was surely a lot easier before it became possible to post it on some forum and see it getting ripped apart by people who don't agree with anything that conflicts with information from an official product. Dammit, I partake in the ripping bit often enough!

Doesn't change that GW has not altered their stance for 20 years, though, and I do not see them doing it anytime soon. It is the fans that need to adapt to this "laissez-faire" policy rather than expecting GW to enforce something.

I've only been following 40k for the last 4-5 years so a fair bit they write 20 years does not apply now. As said earlier the HH was myth and scattered talk not long ago so they should fluff out the two Primarks. I do understand the need for fans to be able to do their own fluff but isnt it the purpose of the d.i.y. chapters to do that? I thought the Primarks were meant to be done by GW?

 Lynata wrote:
]That's because the fandom has a huge issue in that a majority of it still seems to believe in an "official" version of the setting, which does not exist and is not intended to exist. GW wanted players to make the setting their own from the start - instead we got thousands of people uplifting codices and outsourced novels to a non-existing Pillar of Holy Canon that brooks no deviation, even when those books constantly contradict each other.

.

See that is not the fans fault that they expect a setting to have canon, all settings have canon, every one. That falls at GW and the " we are not a game company" BS they keep shoveling as they are to lazy to police the mess they made. Every game wants players to make it their own, but the moment they wrote a background, the moment they started to flesh things out, it became a setting. They do indeed have an "Official" and unofficial version, can you show up at their stores with models they did not make using your homebrew modified codex? Of coarse not, the same goes with the setting.

You can't show up to an official game .".oh my SM/eldar army is ok because in my version of the game which is official because there is no real version of the setting, so My army is a mix of the unified Eldar/Space marine legions! Oh you mean I can't use both at the same time? But, but there is no canon!"

so the thought that their is not real canon is a flawed one, its there just badly, badly managed.

I agree, if your not up to the job GW then it should be up to the fans, the most liked canon should become official. I've read at least one version of of what happened to them done by a fan that seemed very fluffy and true to the background - one was destroyed the other banished for 10,000 years for not submitting to the codex, wanting to avoid another civil war he left with his legion to the edge of Imperial space to serve out their exile.

Themanwiththeplan wrote:As said earlier the HH was myth and scattered talk not long ago so they should fluff out the two Primarks.

Well, it still is a myth in the 40k as propagated by GW's own rulebooks and codices. That a bunch of freelance authors wrote a novel series about it doesn't change how it is represented in the studio material.

Themanwiththeplan wrote:I do understand the need for fans to be able to do their own fluff but isnt it the purpose of the d.i.y. chapters to do that? I thought the Primarks were meant to be done by GW?

The best explanation I heard from amongst the fans so far was that the fate as well as the description and even the name of the two missing Legions was kept completely blank specifically so that players have the opportunity to make DIY Marine Chapters by tapping into this very potential, be it by making their Space Marines members of the Legions themselves, or by making them Successor Chapters honouring a tradition they invented for that blank slate Legion. It just allows people to come up with more stuff without going against something it says in a Codex. I've even seen some people theorize about how one of them was purged from the records because it was FeMarines and their missing Primarch was a girl. You just can't do that with any of the other Legions!

Of course the idea of FeMarines will still be ridiculed on the internet on principle, but you get my drift.

Hunterindarkness wrote:See that is not the fans fault that they expect a setting to have canon, all settings have canon, every one. [...] Every game wants players to make it their own, but the moment they wrote a background, the moment they started to flesh things out, it became a setting.

Sure it is a setting, but ... hmm, how to describe it best - perhaps one could say it is meant to be "customisable" by the individual gamer?

And it is understandable that the fans fall into this "trap" - as you said, the majority of settings propagate a uniform "true" vision of how things are, so it is not surprising that this standard is being applied to other franchises as well. Perhaps you could even say that, on some level, it does have a "canon", just that it is not a single one but many different canons that all show a slightly different interpretation of the setting. I love consistency myself, so I have limited myself to regard GW material as "canon" for my personal interpretation. I just need to maintain awareness that this is not a binding rule, and that other people may prefer different sources. "Everything and nothing is true", as I recall it being explained once.

What is the fans' fault is that this awareness is not yet common knowledge, and instead the majority still clings to the erroneous belief that there would be a single "true" setting like it exists for various other franchises that, unlike 40k, actually have a canon policy - and that they instill this lie in every newcomer who joins the fandom. It's what caused me to believe 40k had a canon for quite a number of years, too, until I stumbled upon a couple of interviews and blogs where the people who actually work on this franchise told the truth, not to mention the short dialogue we had with famed author ADB on this very forum.

Also, ironically I believe you could pull off the Eldar/SM thing with the 6E Ally rules now.
That you can't show up with anything at their stores is more a limitation of the official rules as well as a "you have to buy our models" policy rather than something that has to do with the fluff.

Hmm... might be an interesting experiment. Would you get kicked out of a store for showing up with a Hello Kitty army? I know they exist. I've seen pictures!

Themanwiththeplan wrote:the most liked canon should become official

Urgh. Please, no. I like my Sisters of Battle the way they are as per GW's books just fine.

 Lynata wrote:

Themanwiththeplan wrote:As said earlier the HH was myth and scattered talk not long ago so they should fluff out the two Primarks.

Well, it still is a myth in the 40k as propagated by GW's own rulebooks and codices. That a bunch of freelance authors wrote a novel series about it doesn't change how it is represented in the studio material.

This I don't agree with. GW has been directly hyping and advertising the gak out of the HH series and now the Forge World Heresy series. It's not treated as "freelance", what goes on with those products is clearly ingrained into the 40k universe if you look at any White Dwarf or GW blog.

Lynata - I just meant the missing two and I thought the d.i.y chapters could be from any legion not just the missing two?I'm sure your Sisters are safe...for now lol

I think the Space Wolves book by dan abnet in the horus heresey have some of the SW say they where made to wipe out legions and hint that indeed they can. (Also hinting that they know so because they have done so at least once before.)

Niiai - yes I remember that from reading it and they just act beastrul so the other legions under estimate them, but what happened to the other legion though?

Last I heard the Primarchs of the II and XI Legions had no backstory/names/whatever beyond hints in the fluff because you lot are supposed to make up your own explanation for what happened to them, where they went, who they were, and what armies they left behind.

Harriticus wrote:This I don't agree with. GW has been directly hyping and advertising the gak out of the HH series and now the Forge World Heresy series. It's not treated as "freelance", what goes on with those products is clearly ingrained into the 40k universe if you look at any White Dwarf or GW blog.

I have yet to see any of the major "revelations" from the HH books flow into the rulebooks or codices or even a WD fluff article. Check the 6E big book, the Heresy is still treated as some big half-myth that nobody remembers for sure. It has pretty much become tradition for GW's books to be as ambiguous as possible on these things - so much so that it is a surprise to fine something like hard numbers or an accurate technical description of something every now and then.

Sure, the Horus Heresy is probably the most advertised Black Library series so far, but how much of it actually creeped into the studio fluff so far? *shrug*
The whole thing is just a "non-issue" for the 41st millennium. Maybe this will change some day when they publish a Heresy spin-off Codex or whatever, but as of now I'm just not seeing any connection.

Themanwiththeplan wrote:Lynata - I just meant the missing two and I thought the d.i.y chapters could be from any legion not just the missing two?I'm sure your Sisters are safe...for now lol

Well, the two missing Primarchs are from the two "deleted" Legions, and them being completely blank is (or so many fans think, at least) meant to allow people to make a DIY Chapter whose history is not "limited" to the background of the existing Legions.
Basically ... see AnomanderRake's post.

As for the Sisters - From your fingers to the God-Emperor's eyes, I'd say!

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
I agree, if your not up to the job GW then it should be up to the fans, the most liked canon should become official. I've read at least one version of of what happened to them done by a fan that seemed very fluffy and true to the background - one was destroyed the other banished for 10,000 years for not submitting to the codex, wanting to avoid another civil war he left with his legion to the edge of Imperial space to serve out their exile.

ecept there was no codex when they were around, they were already gone by the time the Horus Heresy happened and after that the codex was written.

Spartan089 - hmm that is true, I might have remembered it wrong but them being exiled for a thousand years is a good way of of fluffing them out, the only question is why?

Lynata - lol

Lots of you say that they left them blank for invented chapters, I used that idea when I made mine. Her is the story:
Primarch Kalzor De'Hallen was the primarch of the alpha marines (not the alpha legion). He was the only one who could match Horus in battle, they were like brothers. After the Horus heresey the alpha marines died out and Kalzor was enrolled in the ultra marines. When the chaos marines became to big a threat Kalzor was told to bring back the alpha marines. The 11th primarch (a girl) helped him in rebuilding the alpha marines and they are now the best chapter ever. All records were carefully hidden.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Current theory is that they were rolled over into the ultramarines.

That's "a" theory, postulated by a single Word Bearer, whose companions even thought it was unlikely to be true. Even the author of that book said he didn't realize people would take it so seriously when he wrote it, lol.

But it actually doesn't jive with some of the other fluff. We do know that the two missing Legions disappeared before even all of the primarchs were found, so it was very early in the process. The Ultramarines, on the other hand, didn't expand in numbers until the Crusade was well underway, and it was a factor of their recruiting and training logistics.


The original idea (way back in the day) behind the the 2nd and 11th was that they were traitors who came back to the "good guys" and it was their reward to have their records deleted so nobody would know they were at one point renegades. That idea faded away over time and obviously no longer applies with the Heresy books. We do know that whatever happened to the missing Legions happened long before the Emperor found Corax.

colonelscout wrote:
Lots of you say that they left them blank for invented chapters, I used that idea when I made mine. Her is the story:
Primarch Kalzor De'Hallen was the primarch of the alpha marines (not the alpha legion). He was the only one who could match Horus in battle, they were like brothers. After the Horus heresey the alpha marines died out and Kalzor was enrolled in the ultra marines. When the chaos marines became to big a threat Kalzor was told to bring back the alpha marines. The 11th primarch (a girl) helped him in rebuilding the alpha marines and they are now the best chapter ever. All records were carefully hidden.

Problems:
1. Why would the Emperor call to legions nearly the same name, pretty bad fluffwise and poor fanfic writing (adds no plot points and is just confusing).
2. The two unnamed legions were already gone before the heresy as made clear in current fluff.
3. A primarch enrolling in another legion is a pretty bad idea, the primarchs are able to speed up marine enrollment so a legion would not 'die out', there is also the fact that why would a great leader of men accept being someone elses servant.
4. The chaos marines have not beed as big a threat since the horus heresy so that point makes little sence.
5. What is the point of having a female primarch, it serves no purpose as a plot device "oh yer the emperor deleted all records of a primarch because they were a girl (bar the fact that the emperor designed each primarch so would know if he created a female primarch and the fact that he has shown no sexism in fluff and has many female warriors inhis armies.)

The point raised by people saying that GW created to missing legions so that games can make their own fluff is not true, it is only fan speculation that has carried on growing. It was created as a simple plot device to make interesting fluff.

I think the title of "The Purged" gives a great big ol' hint as to what happened...

As for "The Lost/The Forgotten," i think the most realistic speculation is that he was a) swallowed up by the warp when going off to whoop some ass or b) just simply never found, perhaps the gods of chaos threw him into the deepest, darkest reaches of the galaxy possibly because he was the one who could have made the Cabal's wishes a reality. However, I'll admit that I enjoy toying with the idea that through some mishap, the 11th primarch became The Lost God, Malice .