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 Grey Templar wrote:
California could easily be self sufficient, however politicians keep spending too much money.

Taxing the export of agricultural products alone would bring in tons of cash.

California would be instantly bankrupt.

Yeah, because of those aforementioned politicians. not to mention policies that are driving businesses away.

No. The Scots don't want independance, though the English want them to have it.

English nationalism is far more powerful - and young - than Scottish nationalism.

Every scotsman just needs to pull out his Bagpipes and march on London. A hundred thousand bagpipers in the streets, and behold, the Scottish annexation of the southlands is complete.

It'd be nice to have an actual discussion on Scottish independance rather than just flaming on national stereotypes. If you want to do so then fine, as long as you're making an actual point.

I think that the referendum will fail, just like the first devolution referendum but eventually the treaty of union will be dissolved. The SNP have done apretty good job of showing people that they can actually govern and that was the first major hurdle. The next 2 are tradition and the shock of the unknown, eventually I think that they will be overcome.

There is a shocking amount of casual racisim in this thread.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Why is it that independence movements are always popular with people who are reliant on the people they want independence from? Why is it never London or New York that want to break away to keep the leeches from stealin' their money?

New York needs us a hell of a lot more than we need New York, Unlike California which has an actual economy NYC is dependent on the national economy to work. Without the rest of us it's 8 million starving people in an urban sprawl; that we can gouge even deeper on goods and services they can't produce themselves, which is pretty much everything.

It could pull that off alone, you don't need to produce food to get it cheap.

Sorry it took so long I laughed so hard I nearly suffocated.
That must be why it's so cheap to live in new York. Tell me about New Yorks ability to get natural gas and oil cheaply too.
You live in a fantasy world if you think New York could become independent and thrive. It would be the New Detroit.

 Testify wrote:
It'd be nice to have an actual discussion on Scottish independance rather than just flaming on national stereotypes. If you want to do so then fine, as long as you're making an actual point.

OK Mom.

Whats the reason for independence at this point?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Palindrome wrote:
I think that the referendum will fail, just like the first devolution referendum but eventually the treaty of union will be dissolved. The SNP have done apretty good job of showing people that they can actually govern and that was the first major hurdle. The next 2 are tradition and the shock of the unknown, eventually I think that they will be overcome.

There is a shocking amount of casual racisim in this thread.

Hey I've only mentioned haggis once.

 Frazzled wrote:

Whats the reason for independence at this point?

There has always been an argument for independence, Robert Burns even wrote a poem about it. As it stands Scotland is doing relatively well financially (even without the oil revenues) and will be able to be self sufficent, devolution has shown Scots that we are at least capable of running our own affairs and there seems to be increasing ideological divisions between Holyrood and Westminster (but that may be short lived).

The reasons against are tradition and a lack of confidence that it would benefit Scotland.

The thing I would find more interesting is what it does to the political landscape for the rest of the UK if Scotland did leave.

Labour really do not want this to happen, probably why Darling is heading up the vote no campaign.

Palindrome wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Whats the reason for independence at this point?

There has always been an argument for independence, Robert Burns even wrote a poem about it. As it stands Scotland is doing relatively well financially (even without the oil revenues) and will be able to be self sufficent, devolution has shown Scots that we are at least capable of running our own affairs and there seems to be increasing ideological divisions between Holyrood and Westminster (but that may be short lived).

The reasons against are tradition and a lack of confidence that it would benefit Scotland.

What are the ideological divisions? Who keeps the oil - UK or Scotland? If I'm the UK why would I let Scotland have the oil?

 mattyrm wrote:


If London had independance its not just Scotland is fethed. Its absolutely all of us..The North East is totally screwed en-masse, and Yorkshire would be forced to invade Scotland to ward off starvation.

Us Yorkshiremen would probably win though.

 Frazzled wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Whats the reason for independence at this point?

There has always been an argument for independence, Robert Burns even wrote a poem about it. As it stands Scotland is doing relatively well financially (even without the oil revenues) and will be able to be self sufficent, devolution has shown Scots that we are at least capable of running our own affairs and there seems to be increasing ideological divisions between Holyrood and Westminster (but that may be short lived).

The reasons against are tradition and a lack of confidence that it would benefit Scotland.

What are the ideological divisions? Who keeps the oil - UK or Scotland? If I'm the UK why would I let Scotland have the oil?

Here is an electoral map of the UK:


Look how many Conservative (blue) there is in Scotland. 1 or 2? And there are about 30 Labour seats. That's why they oppose independance.

 Frazzled wrote:

What are the ideological divisions? Who keeps the oil - UK or Scotland? If I'm the UK why would I let Scotland have the oil?

The Scottish goverment is more left wing while the UK government sits firmly on the right, Historically Scottish politics on the whole favour the left while England tends to favour the right.

Oil revenues go to the UK exchequer (and tax revenues IIRC) while Scotland gets a sum of money in return to run its public services etc. I'm not an expert though so its enitely possible that I am wrong.

 Frazzled wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Whats the reason for independence at this point?

There has always been an argument for independence, Robert Burns even wrote a poem about it. As it stands Scotland is doing relatively well financially (even without the oil revenues) and will be able to be self sufficent, devolution has shown Scots that we are at least capable of running our own affairs and there seems to be increasing ideological divisions between Holyrood and Westminster (but that may be short lived).

The reasons against are tradition and a lack of confidence that it would benefit Scotland.

What are the ideological divisions? Who keeps the oil - UK or Scotland? If I'm the UK why would I let Scotland have the oil?

I remember hearing that during Blair's time he moved the boundaries of England to cover the bit of the North Sea where the oil is, so if that's the case then it's England's. Even with the oil Scotland would struggle to keep up it's more socialist aspects.

That map is generally correct, but would normally be a little more red in England. After 3 terms of Labour, they haven't done very well. Although even when they did it's broadly the same.

Broadly speaking, yes. It's noticable that Wales and Scotland are both much more left wing than England.

Would they keep the monarchy? And lastly, would this result in a similar situation as the Irish troubles after they got their independence?

 Ratbarf wrote:
Would they keep the monarchy? And lastly, would this result in a similar situation as the Irish troubles after they got their independence?

IIRC they would keep the monarchy as head of state, since the original union between England and Scotland was monarchal. The Queen of England *is* the queen of Scotland.

I doubt there'd be a civil war after independance Ireland was different, since you had an Irish majority, and a Scots minority who were fiercely pro-British (ironic, given what we're discussing )

 Ratbarf wrote:
would this result in a similar situation as the Irish troubles after they got their independence?

Nah, they sort all the sectarian violence out at Old Firm Derbies.

 Ratbarf wrote:
Would they keep the monarchy? And lastly, would this result in a similar situation as the Irish troubles after they got their independence?

The union of the crowns predates the union of the parliments so the short answer is yes. Besides Australia and Canada keep the monarchy.

The Irish Troubles have religious roots, Protestants tended to be pro unionist while Catholics tended to be pro home rule/independence. Once religion becomes involved in something like this it can't fail to get ugly. There was also a lot of bad blood built up over the English occupation of Ireland that didn't get a real chance to heal. Basically the two are completley different.

We (the people living in Scotland) haven't been given any definitive or solid information on why we should leave the Union. The only thing I know about Alex's plans are to increase immigration and pull money out of his arse... I think he is trying to drive Scotland as a leader in renewable energy... perhaps a cultural hub (oi! no laughing in the back!)... something else fairly flowery.

We've had nothing solid actually. We'll probably get dragged into the EU and will be in such a terrible situation we'll go back to painting ourselves blue and waving our genitals at our English neighbours...

In fact it would be better for English students if Scotland became independent as you'd get to study here for free like all the other EU blighters!

I'd vote for Independence... from the EU. The UK should be getting the pits back open, no more relying on dodgy Russian Gas. We'll need Nuclear at the very minimum as a stop gap solution until then because we're heading for an energy crisis. Better we tackle it together, eh chaps?

 Medium of Death wrote:

We've had nothing solid actually. We'll probably get dragged into the EU and will be in such a terrible situation we'll go back to painting ourselves blue and waving our genitals at our English neighbours...

On the Daily Politics they went over some aspects of the referendum. Salmon wants to stay with pound sterling, but if he did then he would have no control over interest rates, they also mentioned that the question may well be "Do you think Scotland should be a separate state?" or something like that.

Yeah, I'll be honest MoD, the 'get out of the EU' vote would interest me a lot more.

As a note, I would rather Scotland stayed in the UK, too much proud history we've done together since the union overall in my mind, mainly concerning wars and Scottish regiments, plus the jack. Would be a real shame to loose it.

 dæl wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:

We've had nothing solid actually. We'll probably get dragged into the EU and will be in such a terrible situation we'll go back to painting ourselves blue and waving our genitals at our English neighbours...

On the Daily Politics they went over some aspects of the referendum. Salmon wants to stay with pound sterling, but if he did then he would have no control over interest rates, they also mentioned that the question may well be "Do you think Scotland should be a separate state?" or something like that.

The government of the UK also has no control over interest rates. They are determined by the independent Bank of England. I think it would be VERY unusual where Scottish fiscal policy would need to be radically different from English fiscal policy, given how similar our economies are.

 Ratbarf wrote:
Would they keep the monarchy? A

ATM Salmond has stated Scotland will keep the queen but when she dies that may change

 Ratbarf wrote:
Would they keep the monarchy? And lastly, would this result in a similar situation as the Irish troubles after they got their independence?

The difference largely being that the Irish had a war for their independence, and that war just kept on rolling. I don't think the climate exists for a Scottish Troubles.

"Do you believe Scotland should be an independent country?". I think the question tends to a yes answer... I think an independent Scotland could be a good thing. Now definitely isn't the time, Alex isn't the man and I partly think the time for independence was back when North Sea Oil was discovered. Scotland is better off in the Union and we always have been. We have enough of a say in how our country is run. We should be looking to revitalise the UK economy and industry.

Children as young as 16 will also help decide the fate of the Union, after Mr Cameron caved in to Scottish National Party demands on the date of the vote and the age of the electorate.

No ex-pats get the vote, not to worry the fate of the Union will rest on the shoulders of the kids... and immigrants...

Can I get a face palm?



HELL YEAH!

Scottish independence would seem to be a good thing for England and a bad thing for Scotland.

I mean, if Northern Ireland were to go "independent" it'd be up gak creek without a paddle, and no mistake. Scotland's in a better position, but I still think there'd have to be some austerity if they went independent.

I really, really hope the UK doesn't back out of the EU. It seems more based on xenophobia to me than anything rational. Xenophobia and pride.

Reading through the stereotype jkes, I figured out I should leave dakka and put on my fancy wooden shoes and smoke weed between the tullips. Thanks!

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Reading through the stereotype jkes, I figured out I should leave dakka and put on my fancy wooden shoes and smoke weed between the tullips. Thanks!

Your flag must be wrong then, because according to it you should hang out in a Haufbrau eating sausage, drinking beer, and carousing with the Fraulines.

Which frankly is an awsome stereotype.