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I'm considering all options with Chaos at the moment and the latest thought is Pavane.

There is no doubt that Pavane can be powerful. So lets look at it and see what we can do with it.

-You have to roll to hit as normal.
This means we must consider BS when choosing our wielder.
There is no deny the witch as its not a pyschic power.

-Target unit is moved D6 units within 18 inch range.
Cannot multi cast on the same target, unit must be a non veichle.

Moving any unit in 6th edition is powerful in quite a few ways.
-Moving units off objectives.
-Moving units into the shape of your chosen blast template.
-Moving a units special weapons to the facing of your incoming shooting to remove them from a unit.
-Move a character in a unit in or out of Look out sir range.
-Move the multiwound units so the wounded models are facing.
-Move a unit closer to help with charge distance/Move an enemy unit in range of dirge caster.

The issue with Pavane is that its quite weak and no reroll. If you roll a 1 your stuck with it. The thing is due to unit coherency you do not need such high numbers for changing unit formation or for helping to fit under your plasma cannon.

It can't be relied upon to perform any situational stunt.

Taking 2 weilders will obviously increase your sucess chances But then you'd be eating a good portion of points in your list which could have little impact.

Look at the weilding options we have:

-Herald of Slaanesh, cheap, but BS3. He needs friends otherwise he'll die to a couple of bolters,

-Blue Scribes.
They need friends to help survival. You have a 50% chance of casting Pavane twice a turn with BS4., They are unique and not that cheap.

-The Masque
He can cast Pavane up to 3 times. He can not join a unit as isn't an IC, has a 3++ with 2 wounds.

I think the other options is a Lord of change or a Daemon Prince.


Thats pretty much where I'm at.
Im trying to think of a delivery system and how to make it survivable for chances of greater impact while trying to keep the allied points at a minimum.

I think i'm more leaning toward Blue Scribes with Horros and some Flamers and/or Screamers currently.

Does anyone actually use other options and if so how do you make them live? My issue with Horros/Scribes and range is that they will be killed if the opponent wants them dead.

There are a couple of inaccuracies I would like to point out to you. Unfortunately I don't have the Codex on me atm, so these things may only be presumptions on my part.. still, worth checking out.

I run the Masque.

As a Daemonic Herald, she counts as an HQ choice, and like Epidemius, Skulltaker or others may be joined to a unit of like-marked Daemons.

There is no specific restriction on "multi-casting" Pavane at the same unit. The FAQ only says you cannot benefit from rolling multiple d6s and choosing the highest for distance. Lets be clear about why this is important.

If the Masque MISSES, she can Pavane that target a 2nd or 3rd time to make sure it goes off. But once moved, that unit cannot be moved again in the same turn. Based on her ability to cast it 3 times at separate units (if desired) this makes her the best Pavane platform for the points and increases the reliability of the power to move at least one unit at the required time.

At 100 points, the masque is cheap. 2 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, I7, and a 3+ invul save that shames anything but a Tzeentch greater daemon. She does alright in CC but most importantly has a BS 5 to use with the Pavane. I typically launch her with a squad of 5 daemonettes to help make sure she survives more than 1 turn and the unit sometimes sticks around long enough to score on top of that.

Edit: Just realized I have the .pdf saved to me phone.. will update with actual rules momentarily.

 Boneblade wrote:
There are a couple of inaccuracies I would like to point out to you. Unfortunately I don't have the Codex on me atm, so these things may only be presumptions on my part.. still, worth checking out.

I run the Masque.

As a Daemonic Herald, she counts as an HQ choice, and like Epidemius, Skulltaker or others may be joined to a unit of like-marked Daemons.

There is no specific restriction on "multi-casting" Pavane at the same unit. The FAQ only says you cannot benefit from rolling multiple d6s and choosing the highest for distance. Lets be clear about why this is important.

If the Masque MISSES, she can Pavane that target a 2nd or 3rd time to make sure it goes off. But once moved, that unit cannot be moved again in the same turn. Based on her ability to cast it 3 times at separate units (if desired) this makes her the best Pavane platform for the points and increases the reliability of the power to move at least one unit at the required time.

At 100 points, the masque is cheap. 2 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, I7, and a 3+ invul save that shames anything but a Tzeentch greater daemon. She does alright in CC but most importantly has a BS 5 to use with the Pavane. I typically launch her with a squad of 5 daemonettes to help make sure she survives more than 1 turn and the unit sometimes sticks around long enough to score on top of that.

Edit: Just realized I have the .pdf saved to me phone.. will update with actual rules momentarily.

A correction to your corrections. The Masque is not an Independent Character, she is Infantry. As such she cannot join other units, whether they are Slaanesh units or not.

The Masque is not an IC so cannot join any other units. This is the big issue with the Masque as it is easy to target and kill. If you've been putting it with a unit of Daemonettes that is illegal.


While you can use it on one unit multiple times, you have to declare what each use of the Pavane at the same time, so if you declare the first 2 uses are going to one squad and the first one hits, the second one is wasted.

So if you use Blue Scribes you still have to nominate where your second power is going even though you do not know what this power might be?

I'm considering something like this at 1850 but it feels a little weak:

L0rd MoN, Termy Armour, Power Axe
30 Cultists, Autoguns, flamer,shotgun.

7 Plagues, x2 Plasma, Rhino
7 Plagues, x2 Plasma, Rhino

Fast
Helldrake
Helldrake

Heavy
Havoc x4 Autocannon
Havoc x4 Autocannon
Oblits, MoNx3

Allies:
HQ
The Blue Scribes
5 Horros + Changling
3 Flamers

The IG allied varient list I've made feels stronger even with the ability to move units a D6.
I can very much see the use and Pavane appeals to me greatly but i'm not sure if its strong enough to warrant taking it.

The Masque is far too fragile although she is the perfect platform.

That's amazing, and seems absolutely correct. The generic heralds are given the Independent Character USR but the named Heralds are categorically denied. This very much changes my opinion on using Masque and Epidemius in my lists.

I was hoping it may have been an oversight and would have been addressed in the FAQ but it appears as if they did this intentionally, perhaps to mitigate the otherwise awesome rules and relatively low points cost of the models. And to add insult to injury.. the Masque isn't even BS 5.

So be it!



Edit: Aaannnddd it's not so bad, I was just blind and freaking myself out. Masque is apparently the only one who got hosed by this. Epidemius, Skulltaker and the Blue Scribes all have the Independent Character USRs. I suppose that would be the source of my confusion.

To be honest with you, though, running her alone is not such a terrible proposition. 100 points for that kind of a force multiplier that has EW and a 3+ invul save is not something to simply dismiss.

Being able to move someone else's models is a huge advantage. You can put a special IC or weapon in the front, allowing you to 'snipe' what you want. It allows you to clump models together for flaming purposes. Simply put -- its the most abusive power in the game.

The Masque being able to use it 3 times a turn is extremely good. Stick her by fateweaver, and she will shurg off most shooting. Furthermore, people will not be targeting her, as they will be concerned about the flamers/screamers/crushers about to tear their throat out.

Yep, i can see that working nicely in a Deamon primary list.
It needs fateweaver to keep her alive.

I think the best way to pull it off if you aren't taking Daemons as primary is probably the Scribes although that severely lacks survival.

How can she target three different units though? I thought you had to resolve all shooting at one unit, which would make here three shots a bit lack luster since a unit can only be affected once.

L0rdF1end wrote:The issue with Pavane is that its quite weak and no reroll. If you roll a 1 your stuck with it.

So basically like most of the guns that are the staples of most lists in this game. Most things have no re-rolls, all things miss on a 1 and you're stuck with it. Difference here is the Masque can try again until she is successful or runs out of shots.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

L0rdF1end wrote:The issue with Pavane is that its quite weak and no reroll. If you roll a 1 your stuck with it.

So basically like most of the guns that are the staples of most lists in this game. Most things have no re-rolls, all things miss on a 1 and you're stuck with it. Difference here is the Masque can try again until she is successful or runs out of shots.

Technically speaking, no.

The Masque has the added limitation of needing to declare and resolve all of her shots simultaneously, the same as any other shooting attack. This last little clarification puts a definite crimp in my style of using her.

Ex;

Roll 1d6 to hit the Tactical marines.. 2, failed
Roll 1d6 to hit the tactical marines.. 3, succeed
Roll 1d6 to hit the Terminators, 4, succeed

THIS IS WRONG


It's

I'm going to roll 1d6 on the tac marines, 1d6 on the terminators, and 1d6 on the devastators

You pick the targets all at once and THEN roll, you are stuck with the results. If something misses, then you are SOL. If you shoot at the same unit 3 times and the first dice succeeds, you are SOL (although technically you roll all 3 at once anyways).

So if I put all 3 at one target, and they all hit, can I roll all 3 distance die and take the largest since it's all simultaneous?

Pavane is great. 6th edition has made it even better, since it doesn't reduce your charge range (previously, being able to fleet was generally better) and because now lash is gone. Anyway, there are only six ways to get it.

Keeper of Secrets - almost mandatory, as it it essentially greatly increases your charge range by d6", so now you can move 6", pavane an enemy unit d6", and then charge your 2d6" with rerolls. At BS 4, its more likely to hit than not, so you can plan pretty well around it.

Herald of Slaanesh - Biggest problem here is that herald is only BS3, so it only works half the time. To me, that makes it a pass, regardless of how you run your herald.

Daemon Prince /w Mark of Slaanesh - A BS5 pavane! Woo-hoo. Except...now, if you're taking a daemon prince, the ability to give them wings, mark of tzeentch, and a bolt for anti-air work is a jewel beyond price. This is the one area where a pavane model became worse in 6th ed, simply because the winged tzeentch prince became so much better.

Masque - being the only herald without IC status hurts, but having 3 pavanes to toss around is nice. It's kind of a trade-off. Using her takes a mixture of agressiveness and defense...you need to either have terrain good enough to hide her while keeping her useful, or you need to have have enough targets that your opponent wants to shoot at them instead...or you need Fateweaver, to make her 3++ save close to totally invulnerable.

Bluescribes - Love these guys. BS4 pavane is reasonably reliable, and the 50% of getting a second pavane off is awesome.

Now, here's how it works to for the models with multiple pavanes. As has been stated, you have to declare targets before rolling. With the bluescribes, you'll know whether or not you have two powers, because it goes like this:

1) Choose first power (pavane).
2) Roll D6 to see if you get a 2nd power
3) Then choose targets, etc.

For both the Bluescribes and Masque, you have to declare targets before rolling to hit. So essentially, the question you need to ask is how much you need a particular unit pavaned. If its critical (like it usually will be) you probably want to target two pavanes at a single unit. While you only get a single d6" roll, it at least makes it extremely likely that a pavane will hit. With the Masque, I usually put two into a primary target, and the third into a secondary target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tebryn wrote:
So if I put all 3 at one target, and they all hit, can I roll all 3 distance die and take the largest since it's all simultaneous?

It's not specified, but in the INAT we ruled that you only get 1 d6 regardless of the number of hits.

Tebryn wrote:
So if I put all 3 at one target, and they all hit, can I roll all 3 distance die and take the largest since it's all simultaneous?

This is answered directly in the Daemons FAQ.

Q: If The Masque targets a unit with multiple Pavane of Slaanesh
attacks, do you roll one dice for each hit and pick the highest when
working out how far she can move the unit? (p51)
A: No, regardless of how many times she hits the unit, you still
only roll one dice to see how far they move.

Yeah the masque can't join units, but on then other hand has a better ballistic skill than the herald, and more pavane shots for cheaper and more survivable than the scribes.

Also, another perk that's worth it pointing out is that you can take 2 heralds, so you can take the masque and a herald of slaanesh with pavane, or the masque and the scribes, epidemius, w/e.

Another cool trick pavane can do is to pivot a walker so the rear armor is facing your shooting.

I kind of like using the herald with a small squad of daemonettes, because it becomes scoring, you always have the choice to just deepstrike them somewhere in your backfield as another unit holding the objective.

I've rolled a 1 with it a couple of times, and even getting a 1 is not so bad for most template situations. if you think about it the models can only be 2 inches apart anyway so moving them into a tight formation is still feasable. Only rolling one D6 is made up for the fact that it can't be defended against like the Lash of Submission could be. The only difference is that it can't be relied upon to move scarier units out of charge range.

I still think even if the Masque is a suicide unit, it's worth it if you have an army that is full of hardcore templates (flamers, oblits plasma, ectoplasm cannons, Hellldrake, Burning brand of skalathrax on a mounted lord)

There are a few other dirty tricks you can pull with Pavane as well.

* You can grab a FMC and turn it around facing the board edge. They must then swoop off the board or go into glide mode.
* You can push a unit into another table quarter. In NOVA style missions that can help you win the game.
* You can push heavy weapons behind cover, forcing them to spend a turn moving back into position.

 Boneblade wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

L0rdF1end wrote:The issue with Pavane is that its quite weak and no reroll. If you roll a 1 your stuck with it.

So basically like most of the guns that are the staples of most lists in this game. Most things have no re-rolls, all things miss on a 1 and you're stuck with it. Difference here is the Masque can try again until she is successful or runs out of shots.

Technically speaking, no.

The Masque has the added limitation of needing to declare and resolve all of her shots simultaneously, the same as any other shooting attack. This last little clarification puts a definite crimp in my style of using her.

Ok, my mistake. Still, saying its not worth taking because it has no re-roll to hit and fails to hit on a 1 is silly. As I said, most guns and attacks in the game follow this pattern and aren't complained about.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

L0rdF1end wrote:The issue with Pavane is that its quite weak and no reroll. If you roll a 1 your stuck with it.

So basically like most of the guns that are the staples of most lists in this game. Most things have no re-rolls, all things miss on a 1 and you're stuck with it. Difference here is the Masque can try again until she is successful or runs out of shots.

Technically speaking, no.

The Masque has the added limitation of needing to declare and resolve all of her shots simultaneously, the same as any other shooting attack. This last little clarification puts a definite crimp in my style of using her.

Ok, my mistake. Still, saying its not worth taking because it has no re-roll to hit and fails to hit on a 1 is silly. As I said, most guns and attacks in the game follow this pattern and aren't complained about.

I didn't say it wasn't worth taking due to the fact you could roll a 1. If you read the post I specified that rolling a 1 would still be helpful in some situations.
It's more a question of whether this fits the current meta to be all powerful. Currently it doesn't as mostly the meta consists of Necrons and Deamons.
Obviously there are still tricks you can pull off, the list is just a little limited by the current armies being played at a competative level.

What I'm trying to say is that you could currently make better use of the points by allying IG or something else instead.

Sorry I guess I misunderstood you then. Though I really don't see how missing the shot could ever be a benefit.