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12thRonin wrote:
They have to care enough first. Those funds manage a lot bigger fish than GW.

Yes, however that still doesn't make their investment in GW something which they will ignore. If a significant blow were struck to GWs IP - the companies would likely either divest themselves of the stock or pressure changes (either through the existing management or by putting in management of their own choosing).

Think of it a bit like your own house. If you have a single faucet that drips you don't just leave it to drip (well - you might)...you fix the drip or you replace the faucet. Either way, just because it is a small portion of their portfolio doesn't mean they don't keep an eye on things.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

12thRonin wrote:
They have to care enough first. Those funds manage a lot bigger fish than GW.

Yes, however that still doesn't make their investment in GW something which they will ignore. If a significant blow were struck to GWs IP - the companies would likely either divest themselves of the stock or pressure changes (either through the existing management or by putting in management of their own choosing).

Think of it a bit like your own house. If you have a single faucet that drips you don't just leave it to drip (well - you might)...you fix the drip or you replace the faucet. Either way, just because it is a small portion of their portfolio doesn't mean they don't keep an eye on things.

It's more foreseeable that the fund managers in question would have a serious heart to heart with GW because divesting themselves of the stock, over a short period of time, would reduce their return. The massive numbers of shares that would be traded in the short term would see the stock value plummet.

Of course the scenario I presented above where the fund managers step in would require them, as a group, to agree on a course of action; that would be the trick.

 agnosto wrote:

It's more foreseeable that the fund managers in question would have a serious heart to heart with GW because divesting themselves of the stock, over a short period of time, would reduce their return. The massive numbers of shares that would be traded in the short term would see the stock value plummet.

Of course the scenario I presented above where the fund managers step in would require them, as a group, to agree on a course of action; that would be the trick.

Yes, actually dumping the stock all at once would likely hurt their price...however if the ball starts rolling on the news of a loss, many managers dump stock to try to avoid getting stuck at the bottom.

The other issue would end up being where the controlling share point actually is. In most cases a fairly small portion of the share holders actually participate in voting (they just don't get involved). A single entity like Nomad or Investec that control upwards of 18% of the stock each may actually have nearly 50% of the votes they would need to replace the board - assuming the other entity doesn't directly oppose their action.

Hi Testify.GW plc currently operate at 76% gross profit. But manage to miss manage it down to a pathetic 10 to 15% net profit.If GW plc did not throw away60% of thier profit on trying to isolate customers.GW plc could halve prices drive up demand and increase profits.Acting like its 1997 in 2012 does GWPlc no favors.

 scipio.au wrote:

Anyway, I look forward to seeing exactly what happens when Chapterhouse likely win. I think it'll be interesting, but since any outcome will only have US jurisdiction, not necessarily much impact for places in the UK/France/Poland.

Win or loose - we have already seen numerous things happen in GW which can be attributed directly to the CHS case. Future Codices will be full releases as opposed to waves. No more waiting several years to get all the models which are in a Codex - or in some cases never seeing them released. GW has released numerous specific bits in order to actually substantiate trademark claims (from the Imperial Guard Aquila sets to the various shoulder pads and weapons for the Space Marines which have been rereleased). During the several years since GW cancelled their core bits program, they could have well released those items, however a few short months after GW's licensing manager was deposed regarding the trademark claims (and embarrassingly had to answer that they had no products which were actually sold on a number of the claimed marks) we see a flood of items.

Other portions will be less directly tied to the specific case and will be dependent in many ways on whether or not the court addresses the Design Right issue. If the court does then you will likely see GW actually develop something new - as the time limit for exclusive production has long since past on the vast majority of GW's designs.

I think we can do without the "subtle" digs and insults please people.

Thanks.

I've purged this page of OT and rude posts. If I have to act in this thread again, it will be to purge Dakka of OT and rude posters.

I can't see how GW can win. My other hobby is racing cars and one thing I have seen there is how 3rd party parts are made to replace oem parts without needing a license etc..

As for what would happen if GW lose? I can imagine a HUGE increase in 3rd party bits, and the sooner the better in my view. I get bored of seeing the same models, the same kitbashes etc.

Variety please!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Round and round we go...

Why should businesses have access to GW's IP without licensing?

Because you feel you shouldn't have to pay as much?

If the case goes against GW it will likely show that much of the IP doesn't belong to them.

I imagine if GW lose, there will be a hit to the profit and Loss with any damages, but otherwise they will largely remain the same.

If they have to pay substantial damages (over say £1m), then the share price will take a big hit, maybe 20-30%.

In terms of their future actions, they will just carry on 'as normal' imo. Sending out bullying letters (of a non-legal nature) to anyone they think is getting remotely close to IP, presuming and relying on it being unlikely there will be another pro bono company like CHS that will oppose them.

Where it could get really nasty would be if CHS were to start doing bits for LOTR models... That would be a lot more damaging to GW if they lose because New Line could put up the cost of the license if GW cannot be seen to be protecting their IP.

 Grimstonefire wrote:
I imagine if GW lose, there will be a hit to the profit and Loss with any damages, but otherwise they will largely remain the same.

If they have to pay substantial damages (over say £1m), then the share price will take a big hit, maybe 20-30%.

In terms of their future actions, they will just carry on 'as normal' imo. Sending out bullying letters (of a non-legal nature) to anyone they think is getting remotely close to IP, presuming and relying on it being unlikely there will be another pro bono company like CHS that will oppose them.

Where it could get really nasty would be if CHS were to start doing bits for LOTR models... That would be a lot more damaging to GW if they lose because New Line could put up the cost of the license if GW cannot be seen to be protecting their IP.

You'd think at that point though that New Line Cinema is going to step in as well and bring their own weight to bear.

Well, take a look on what New Lice Cinema is doying to a pub named "The Shire" (or The Hobbit?).

From reading these threads it appear there are degrees to how much GW could effectively lose by .

CHS being cleared of infringing GW copyright / IP or
CHS being cleared as GW cant prove they own all of the Copyright / IP's they claim to own

I would hazard a guess that being judged to not own these in the first place would lead to an appeal by GW , this would seem to be a far more serious situation for them .

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Well, take a look on what New Lice Cinema is doying to a pub named "The Shire" (or The Hobbit?).

Nothing.

Ian Mckellen and Stephen Fry intervened.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17433036

If GW loses, they will likely appeal. Same if Chapterhouse loses.

 Grimstonefire wrote:
I imagine if GW lose, there will be a hit to the profit and Loss with any damages, but otherwise they will largely remain the same.

If they have to pay substantial damages (over say £1m), then the share price will take a big hit, maybe 20-30%.

In terms of their future actions, they will just carry on 'as normal' imo. Sending out bullying letters (of a non-legal nature) to anyone they think is getting remotely close to IP, presuming and relying on it being unlikely there will be another pro bono company like CHS that will oppose them.

Where it could get really nasty would be if CHS were to start doing bits for LOTR models... That would be a lot more damaging to GW if they lose because New Line could put up the cost of the license if GW cannot be seen to be protecting their IP.

As the LOTR is not owned by GW the lawsuit would have no impact on any LORT stuff CHS would make. Also unlke GW everything in the LOTR world IS copy righted or trademaked. Even GW only has the right to make a model game for it, you can't lose someone else CR and TM, that are lincened to you.

GW doesn't seem like they intend to stop with C&Ds and lawsuits even if CH wins - GW intends to sue Chapterhouse again for products produced after the lawsuit started. (http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.250.0.pdf - page 15).

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but I wonder if we are already seeing the results of this regardless and specifically with the chaos codex? To be frank, the best thing I can ascribe to the model range contained in it is, well.. a little boring and unfinished? All of the rules in the book have models released for it, and there is very little room for customization as previous codecies have allowed. Also, some of the models look extremely rushed (the Mutilators for instance, which I think look almost comically bad).

There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book. And I have to say the end result is to the detriment of that book, and a worse product for the players.

If that is caused by this lawsuit then GW are triply to blame.

1. They didn't have to take the suit.
2. Before taking it, they should have made sure of their legal position.
3. A £130 million company based on producing model soldiers really should be able to produce some decent model soldiers.
(There are about 80 people in the design studio. What do they all do all day?)

 Pacific wrote:
There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book. And I have to say the end result is to the detriment of that book, and a worse product for the players.

I think that's the future if GW can't bully 3rd party bits makers out of the market. But there will still be demand for chapter/clan specific modifications, weapons changes, purely cosmetic changes and cheaper proxies.

Herzlos wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book. And I have to say the end result is to the detriment of that book, and a worse product for the players.

I think that's the future if GW can't bully 3rd party bits makers out of the market. But there will still be demand for chapter/clan specific modifications, weapons changes, purely cosmetic changes and cheaper proxies.

I honestly find this the best for the game. Having people need to go to third party companies for whole units is terrible. The fact that everything in the codex has a model is very good. Companies like chapterhouse are always best for, as you said, bits. Alternate heads/shoulderpads/weapons/etc. The worst thing is when there is no model, so 3 third party models pop up all with different dimensions. There needs to be a baseline official model.

 Pacific wrote:

There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book.

Actually I would say that there is a lot of scope. Deamon engines certainly won't all look the same and the current models have enough detractors that there is a ready market for well designed alternatives. To be honest you could even make something that looks very similar and call it something else (space dragon etc) and in all likelyhood you will be in the clear.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

3. A £130 million company based on producing model soldiers really should be able to produce some decent model soldiers.
(There are about 80 people in the design studio. What do they all do all day?)

Not everyone in the design studio is involved in production of "model soldiers".

The design studio includes the Codex writers, the artists, layout designers, etc.

I know that, however the rate of output is still seemingly very low, considering how much stuff (art, fluff) is recycled.

Besides, layout is really quite quick and easy. I used to do three monthly 64 page magazines by myself, in the early 90s, on computers which were less powerful than an iPod.

What I think happens is that huge amounts of stuff is rejected and we never see it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I know that, however the rate of output is still seemingly very low, considering how much stuff (art, fluff) is recycled.

Besides, layout is really quite quick and easy. I used to do three monthly 64 page magazines by myself, in the early 90s, on computers which were less powerful than an iPod.

What I think happens is that huge amounts of stuff is rejected and we never see it.

if a large amount of concepts and ideas are going to waste then what the hell are they paying the guys for? More to the point why are people working at GW? for the adoration of the sweaty masses at GD when something goes vaguely how the internets expects it to be?

It certainly isn't for the money.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

if a large amount of concepts and ideas are going to waste then what the hell are they paying the guys for?

The occasional, rare good idea.

To be fair, at least 80 per cent of ideas are rubbish in any creative industry, and you have to generate and pay for those as a necessity for getting the good ones.

Palindrome wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book.

Actually I would say that there is a lot of scope. Deamon engines certainly won't all look the same and the current models have enough detractors that there is a ready market for well designed alternatives. To be honest you could even make something that looks very similar and call it something else (space dragon etc) and in all likelyhood you will be in the clear.

Agreed. Silly Dinobots and the space dragon are pretty weak designs that don't fit well with the Chaos aesthetic (IMO). The demon engines of each Chaos power in the previous fluff are wildly different in appearance and function and these new models do not reflect that at all. Have not seen much in the way of power specific conversions. The only difference seems to be paint colors.

I think there is a pretty good potential market out there for well sculpted alternate demon engines, especially now that GW is no longer running tournaments in the US.

I will be looking for (or building) possible alternatives...

Tim

Would love to be able to buy plasma/meltaguns third party for cheap. Of course, I'd love it even more if they actually came included in the guardsmen box set.

I guess GW could do something drastic like slash the amount of new releases, get rid of most of their creative side and focus on the bread and butter - selling people kits of their model soldiers. Actually wouldn't bother me that much, it's very rare nowadays that GW release something, in 40k at least, that actually makes me think "oh crap that looks good". Forgeworld is a different thing altogether, of course...

It's my hope that this'll lead to a more healthy ecosystem where thirdparty suppliers are not frowned upon.
Diversity is a good thing imho.

And the third parties are from my research not supplanting GWs products in any significant manner.