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I see the same problem here as the RoB board. Static tiles are static and can only be arranged so many different ways. The lines between each board section are even more significant than they are on the RoB board and do you have a way of connecting the tiles so they don't move or slide during use?

This really has no business being on Kickstarter, you're not funding anything, just looking to get a load of money in advance. At least pretend you need it for an industrial-grade foam cutter or something.

Druidic wrote:
I've got a load of 2ft square flocked boards I picked up for under £25 each so 6 board under £150. Granted I can't remember the name of the company as it was some years ago, but to me that means $200 for a new table I don't need is steep.

Does not matter what it costs to build, does not matter what other boards cost, to ME too rich for what your offering. simples!

Wish you luck, but does not fire me up to invest, and over this last year I've invested over £600 on new inovative stuff.

You said you spent less than 25GBP, so if we say you spent 20GBP that would be 32.26USD. Also 200USD is only 124GBP. Please correct me if I'm wrong about the money conversion.


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
This really has no business being on Kickstarter, you're not funding anything, just looking to get a load of money in advance. At least pretend you need it for an industrial-grade foam cutter or something.

KICKSTARTER guide line number 1

"Funding for projects only.

A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project."

Kickstarter approved my project!

The beauty of Kickstarter/Indiegogo/etc. is that they are crowdfunding sites - the 'people' will vote with their wallets, and those projects deemed 'worthy' will succeed, and those that are not, won't!

So, let's keep this thread on topic and polite - thanks!

It is a little steep for my tastes, but may I ask what the 5000 dollars is going to be used on?

I realize that Kickstarter has approved the project, and 5 grand is not that steep of a price to reach, I'm just curious as to what this seed money will be used on. Is it to cover the machine costs to switch from foam to MDF board thus making your tables sturdier than foam, and dare I say it, plastic injection. Is this simply being used to get a small client base?

I'm reading your kickstarter now, and it doesn't say what this money will be used for or why you need it? I won't argue that you need a kickstarter, but mayhaps gaining publicity and getting people to buy your product rather than pledge might be the better way to go without a clear goal.

It's cool but not my cup of tea. As well, I'll chime in with the others and say that more details are needed.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This really has no business being on Kickstarter, you're not funding anything, just looking to get a load of money in advance. At least pretend you need it for an industrial-grade foam cutter or something.

Kickstarter ok'd the project so not sure why you feel it has no business being on Kickstarter. Personally I think it is a bad business idea but the success or failure of the project will determine that.


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 Alfndrate wrote:
It is a little steep for my tastes, but may I ask what the 5000 dollars is going to be used on?

I asked this too and would reall like to get an answer. Why do you need $5000 as say compares to $2000?

brettz123 wrote:

Kickstarter ok'd the project so not sure why you feel it has no business being on Kickstarter. Personally I think it is a bad business idea but the success or failure of the project will determine that.

If it's not a viable business idea, than that is the best reason there is why it should be on Kickstarter. That's the whole point.

If it's a viable business idea... you don't need (and probably shouldn't seek out) crowd-funding. Get capital-market-funding (i.e. investors).

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/520381964/titanoboa-50ft-electromechanical-serpent

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emigranttrail/worlds-largest-jockstrap

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hunterd/zombie-based-learning-geography-taught-in-zombie-a?ref=live

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 Alfndrate wrote:
It is a little steep for my tastes, but may I ask what the 5000 dollars is going to be used on?

I asked this too and would reall like to get an answer. Why do you need $5000 as say compares to $2000?

It's not that we're trying to rob you of your time, we're looking for clarity as to why you need x dollars for your project.

If you look at the Kickstarter for Endless: Fantasy Tactics, they spell out right up front the 15 thousand dollars is going to be used for sculpting, art, printing and casting.

You're asking for 5000 dollars and all that is said is that you've had people tell you your table(s) look bought and not home made. Which is great, but if you said, the 5000 dollars will go to the expansion of my studio and the acquisition of an industrial foam cutter to facilitate faster turnaround times, then you could expect people to say, "Well okay... I could see 200 dollars for this project."

So you're using kickstarter as a shopping cart in effect to do pre-orders than to get a business up and going.

 Melissia wrote:
I assume you mean feet, instead of inches. 150 bucks for a 2 inch square board would be pretty ludicrous.

But jokes aside, your math is really fething off. 2'x2' foot foam board equates to 4 square feet; this is 1/4th of the area of the 4'x4' foam board, which is 16 square feet. You're charging 150 USD for a board which has 1/4th the area of his 150 USD board. He is not charging twice as much as you are.

On the contrary!

You are charging four times as much as he is.

Also, for 200 USD, he gives you SIX 2'x2' boards-- given your price scale, you would charge someone 900 USD for what this kickstarter charges 200 USD. For three hundred USD, he gives you eight 2'x2' boards-- your scale would charge 1200 when he charges 300. Both the 200 and 300 scales in this kickstarter offer movable hills as well-- three in the 200, six in the 300. This is on top of the numerous 2'x2' boards.

Have a nice day.

Anyway, my bitching about people's inability to do math aside, personally I'm unlikely to get this because I can't afford it. But I wish ya luck!

Yes, I was reffering to the thickness of the board at the pre described size. which was 4ft by 6ft (aka 24 square feet)

here was my breakdown cost and pricing in full detail.:
Board Thickness Board length (ft) board width (ft) total ft^2 Cost per unit Price per unit
0.5 1 1 1 $1.73 $5.00
1 1 1 1 $1.48 $6.00
2 1 1 1 $1.35 $7.00
0.5 1 2 2 $2.70 $10.00
1 1 2 2 $2.95 $11.00
2 1 2 2 $3.45 $13.00
0.5 1 3 3 $4.05 $15.00
1 1 3 3 $4.43 $16.00
2 1 3 3 $5.18 $19.00
0.5 1 4 4 $5.41 $19.00
1 1 4 4 $5.91 $21.00
2 1 4 4 $6.91 $25.00
0.5 2 2 4 $5.41 $19.00
1 2 2 4 $5.91 $21.00
2 2 2 4 $6.91 $25.00
0.5 2 3 6 $8.11 $29.00
1 2 3 6 $8.86 $32.00
2 2 3 6 $10.36 $37.00
0.5 2 4 8 $10.81 $38.00
1 2 4 8 $11.81 $42.00
2 2 4 8 $13.81 $49.00

the cost of the material per square foot is relatively low. the PRICE is simply dictated due to the amount of time these take to produce. its not something easily slapped on and turned out.

that being said, I wasn't really trying attack the OP as per, just implying he might have more luck selling if he dropped the price some. (I got a family too bro, I totally understand)

Toadkiller: if you're even remotely interested in something like this, hit me up, i'm all for cooperation in the community, i'd love to show you some of the numbers and successes I've had with this. maybe even talk shop! I have a few designs I am working on right now for some modular things I think you would really enjoy!

$5,000 isn't a bad goal. You guys are giving him gak over a pretty reasonable expectation.

Not to mention, its not every day that someone wants to crank out some boards for gaming. 9 out of 10, you end up doing it yourself as part of the "Buy In".

Cranking this stuff out isn't chickenfeed, either. BUT......


1. We are talking about a styro board stock battlefield. A few of them that I've worked with throughout time come to mind.

The first one being my own. I made my boards out of styro board, sand mixed waterbased flat housepaint, and a hot-wire cutter. Second was a bag of static grass, a couple of bags of stuff from the hoby store, some balsa wood, and some plaster of paris, brushes, a bucket, a bowl, and some other stuff.

another set was called Griffin, that I used a few years back. http://www.uttt.com.au/ and one called GEO-Hex. They had different set levels, and add ons for the systems. I don't think GEO Hex is around, anymore, but the other guy is.

All told, that stuff costs around a hundred or so. and if your buying it in bulk, your looking at a few hundred at that.

2. About the edges... there are a few dings in your pictures. You can reinforce those edges with either stripping, or some balsa wood, with some corner connects, in the form of a metal stripping and some earth magnets

3. Something like this is a worthy goal, but you have to look at it from a collective of people who have seen some serious KS/ Indiegogo projects, and the ones that you want to impress have a pretty high bar, so far. Expect to take a bunch of gak over this, especially with what your asking.


Yes, I'm talking to you from some experience of making these types of boards.

You might consider different types of boards, deserts, slag fields, green, grey, tan, light Purple/ Red, etc.... add in the different colored static grass, then just the basic green with a hill.

How are we looking for with mountain/ hill pieces? You can cut the 2 inch- 1 inch stuff and make mountain sections, and hex parts, or round ones, or whatever. You can use the round ones, make little wells, or wall sections, or even branch off into house sections. Point being it is a very good start, but maybe there is something more to add in there?

Have you considered putting a little more into it, and selling basic packs, such as river, or tree systems, or added in something other then the basic table?

I think your starting out with a pretty good product, but you might be looking at the dea with a little more heart, then business, sense.

This is your competition, so when you see these guys here giving you gak over this, you can see why.

http://www.terranscapes.com/

http://www.miniwargaming.com/show/terrain-tutorials

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boGSr_NKEbY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PugcM5BE0H4

http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/6397-how-to-make-modular-terrain

http://www.top20sites.com/Top-Wargame-Terrain-Sites

To push that envelope, you might need to work it just a little bit harder, and put on some bells and whistles in the sets. Based on the idea, I think it has a lot of merit, unless there is something more to it that I might not be seeing.

A base box of GEO Hex cost me around a hundred bones for the basic box. They had expansions that you could buy like a mountain/ terench set, or river sections, or even some swamp stuff for a few bucks extra.

From what I see on that site there, its kinda dry.

Not trying to rub your nose in it, but just a little info for you, hope it helps.

Good luck on the project, I don't think 5 grand is that out of the question, but the delivery and project stuff is just kinda.... off.

 Rimmy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I assume you mean feet, instead of inches. 150 bucks for a 2 inch square board would be pretty ludicrous.

But jokes aside, your math is really fething off. 2'x2' foot foam board equates to 4 square feet; this is 1/4th of the area of the 4'x4' foam board, which is 16 square feet. You're charging 150 USD for a board which has 1/4th the area of his 150 USD board. He is not charging twice as much as you are.

On the contrary!

You are charging four times as much as he is.

Also, for 200 USD, he gives you SIX 2'x2' boards-- given your price scale, you would charge someone 900 USD for what this kickstarter charges 200 USD. For three hundred USD, he gives you eight 2'x2' boards-- your scale would charge 1200 when he charges 300. Both the 200 and 300 scales in this kickstarter offer movable hills as well-- three in the 200, six in the 300. This is on top of the numerous 2'x2' boards.

Have a nice day.

Anyway, my bitching about people's inability to do math aside, personally I'm unlikely to get this because I can't afford it. But I wish ya luck!

Yes, I was reffering to the thickness of the board at the pre described size. which was 4ft by 6ft (aka 24 square feet)

here was my breakdown cost and pricing in full detail.:
Board Thickness Board length (ft) board width (ft) total ft^2 Cost per unit Price per unit
0.5 1 1 1 $1.73 $5.00
1 1 1 1 $1.48 $6.00
2 1 1 1 $1.35 $7.00
0.5 1 2 2 $2.70 $10.00
1 1 2 2 $2.95 $11.00
2 1 2 2 $3.45 $13.00
0.5 1 3 3 $4.05 $15.00
1 1 3 3 $4.43 $16.00
2 1 3 3 $5.18 $19.00
0.5 1 4 4 $5.41 $19.00
1 1 4 4 $5.91 $21.00
2 1 4 4 $6.91 $25.00
0.5 2 2 4 $5.41 $19.00
1 2 2 4 $5.91 $21.00
2 2 2 4 $6.91 $25.00
0.5 2 3 6 $8.11 $29.00
1 2 3 6 $8.86 $32.00
2 2 3 6 $10.36 $37.00
0.5 2 4 8 $10.81 $38.00
1 2 4 8 $11.81 $42.00
2 2 4 8 $13.81 $49.00

the cost of the material per square foot is relatively low. the PRICE is simply dictated due to the amount of time these take to produce. its not something easily slapped on and turned out.

that being said, I wasn't really trying attack the OP as per, just implying he might have more luck selling if he dropped the price some. (I got a family too bro, I totally understand)

Toadkiller: if you're even remotely interested in something like this, hit me up, i'm all for cooperation in the community, i'd love to show you some of the numbers and successes I've had with this. maybe even talk shop! I have a few designs I am working on right now for some modular things I think you would really enjoy!

To be clear- These prices are for flat plains? Are you offering integrated hill that have slopes a mini can stand on as well as a selection of moveable hills? Can you get tiles with water hazards that have color coded areas for different depths? Are these options included in your prices?

The price for a 2 by 2 flocked board is £10.

That comes from Total Scenic Systems which does modular boards, c £10 for 2 by 2 section. They are very good, albeit basic playing surfaces. I have 7, they have lasted over ten years now, and I find them a great play-surface for models as they flock is soft and ensures no chipping occurs.

http://totalsystemscenic.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1028_1284

I think there is probably a niche for very high quality gaming boards, but this product isn't high quality.

Toadkiller wrote:
To be clear- These prices are for flat plains? Are you offering integrated hill that have slopes a mini can stand on as well as a selection of moveable hills? Can you get tiles with water hazards that have color coded areas for different depths? Are these options included in your prices?

yes this is just for the flat plains. I do not integrate terrain pieces permanently. I've found it creates less flexsibility in the terrain.

However, a mountain piece in the same thickness is the same price point. its all square footage based. a mountain/hill doesn't take more work than a plains piece. its just calculates footage is all.

I have recently purchased some plaster molds for more details like rocks and things. we also just designed some ruined buildings.

We (being my friend and I) have been experimenting like crazy lately with materials and techniques etc etc. its a fun hobby all on its own!

We have recently switched from foam base (for the plains sections) to particle board in 1/4" pieces cut to dimension. we just got a full 4' x 8' set tiled out in the modular sizes we wanted. next up, texturing and painting.

my prototype for area terrain is coming along nicely. tonight I am going to head to the laser cutter and try and spit out some more prototypes we've been working on.

 Zweischneid wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Kickstarter ok'd the project so not sure why you feel it has no business being on Kickstarter. Personally I think it is a bad business idea but the success or failure of the project will determine that.

If it's not a viable business idea, than that is the best reason there is why it should be on Kickstarter. That's the whole point.

If it's a viable business idea... you don't need (and probably shouldn't seek out) crowd-funding. Get capital-market-funding (i.e. investors).

By that standard no one would ever use kickstarter.......... so that makes no sense. You use crowd funding inorder to find out if it is a viable business and becasue you most likely will not be able to or do not know how to get funding through traditional methods. It seems to me that you either simply have a problem with crowd funding or do not understand the idea behind it. The point is to allow the "crowd" to decide if it is a worthwhile business approach. In this case it looks like they will not fund this project (at least not at this price and funding level). Either way it is still worthy of being a Kickstarter.


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 Grot 6 wrote:
$5,000 isn't a bad goal. You guys are giving him gak over a pretty reasonable expectation.

Not to mention, its not every day that someone wants to crank out some boards for gaming. 9 out of 10, you end up doing it yourself as part of the "Buy In".

off.

Not giving him gak just letting him know that it would help it he gave a break down of what the $5000 is going for. When I ran my Kickstarter I only asked for $700 but I up front told everyone what it was for (estimated but still an idea). People know you don't really need $5000 to get this project off the ground so it comes off as a little odd. This project could be started and funded for under $1000 easily and that would get you a lot of tables.

We all want to make money but Kickstarters from unknowns (like me for instance) have a better chance the more transparent you are. I find my time useful but I didn't add in the cost of my time to package up miniatures into the kickstarter. I was specifically looking to fund the production and laid out my costs up front so everyone could see what was going on.

All this talk about him using kickstarter. why not? its pretty much just taking pre-orders. seems legitimate to me. it takes time and money to make these, kick starter provides a concrete pre-paid pre-ordering system by the way I see it.

granted, thats not really what its for, nor am I implying the OP's intent. Its just simply how I see it.

material costs money. tools cost money. space costs money. time is money. so if there is a resource for generating funds for this particular type of work, I say go for it.

Well now that a very small part of the dakka community has had over a day now to sound off about my Kickstarter. I will say I'm not at all surprised by the out cry of negativity and the few posts of support, it's kind of what I expected. NO one has mentioned once that I did lowered all of my battlefield prices, I guess because it was more fun to ride the hype rather than let a Dakka newbie fix their mistake or adjust for the expected market value.

I even asked for constructive criticism in my Introduction Post and thank you to those of you that did, seriously THANK YOU for all the constructive criticism!

I dreamed up this project on my own and have taken each step to get it here without help. So I can only look at myself for this project's short comings. Some of the replies in this tread had true merit and will be integrated and used, the others can go away...

Best of luck man, like I said, the price is too steep for me, I was just looking for clarity as to where the money was going

Toadkiller wrote:
Well now that a very small part of the dakka community has had over a day now to sound off about my Kickstarter. I will say I'm not at all surprised by the out cry of negativity and the few posts of support, it's kind of what I expected. NO one has mentioned once that I did lowered all of my battlefield prices, I guess because it was more fun to ride the hype rather than let a Dakka newbie fix their mistake or adjust for the expected market value.

I even asked for constructive criticism in my Introduction Post and thank you to those of you that did, seriously THANK YOU for all the constructive criticism!

I dreamed up this project on my own and have taken each step to get it here without help. So I can only look at myself for this project's short comings. Some of the replies in this tread had true merit and will be integrated and used, the others can go off...

One last suggestion would be to never tell potential customers to BLEEP off. I always suggest just ignoring the posts you don't like / agree with. Can you imagine how many people I have had tell me that they dont like my miniatures? Plenty..... some I ignore and some I listen too when they say something worht listening too!

i'm really sorry you feel so attacked about the whole thing. You're not the only one in this game, and you won't be the last.

Forums can be a minefield.

I hope you succeed. Please do shoot me a message if you're ever interested in talking shop. always great to meet and discuss new ideas and products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, just as an example of what i'm putting out there:

Hi Toad, good on you for taking an idea and trying to do more with it, I wish you the best of luck, I know I am in the market for a modular table. but as a Canadian the $80 shipping cost pushes this out of viability for me.

either way, nice looking product and keep at it.

Rimmy where on earth are you buying your foam?

A 4x8' 2" thick board is $28 here in California is $28, making it about $.88 per square foot.

Does your shown cost include other materials? That would make more sense, unless you are actually spending $43 for a board that should cost $28.

 Aerethan wrote:
Rimmy where on earth are you buying your foam?

A 4x8' 2" thick board is $28 here in California is $28, making it about $.88 per square foot.

Does your shown cost include other materials? That would make more sense, unless you are actually spending $43 for a board that should cost $28.

yes that cost is the addition of all the materials used in creating the base. Wood glue, sand, paint, flocking, the whole shabang.

I'm happy to share my data if you're interested. its all commercial stuff anyone can go buy so no trade secrets here.

EDIT: my price at my local home depot is $28 + tax. comes out to around $30 when its all said and done. by my math, thats $.94 per ft^2.

this is my entire spreadsheet broken down if anyone is interested. most of the numbers are rounded off just to make things easy.

My profit margin includes all of my labor and mark up on materials. overhead covers the cost of my tools and my space use to make them. even with all that, its $5 a square foot. that's still a bargain. area terrain and buildings and things are all placed on top of my terrain, keeps the board very fluid.

What youa re paying for in all terrain, is labor. its someone else's time to make something for you. if Toadkiller charges that much, he charges that much. thats what he values his time at. Publicly I'd like to apologize because I shouldn't have been raining on his parade. His terrain is nice looking and he's offering a service. kudos for that.

I may have to stop by the Lebanon Valley Mall and check out your table there! I'm always up for an adventure.

Anyhow, I wish you lots of luck Toadkiller. I have the Citadel board and its flocked and whatnot. Therefore, I'm not in the market for another one. However, I really do like the board you did with the lights. If you succeed in this endeavor, maybe we'll see some things like trench lines?

As far as those pooh poohing on Toadkiller, if enough people want to fund his project, then that is on those putting forth the funds. I know people that don't have the time to create a 4'x6' gaming board that is painted and flocked and has hills. It took myself and to friends a full day to paint and flock my board. By myself, this would have been a week long project. Time is definitely money!

I think a couple closeup shots of your lakes and ponds could definitely help you out Toadkiller.

Oh yeah... and to cater to those of us in the GW Universe, I think you may be a little short on your skull count!

Doesn't Blue table painting already offer a similar product already? I remember them showing off full boards and stuff they have made for customers before.

Why does this REALLY need a kick starter? What your doing is bassicly a commission based/made to order terrain serves. This isn't THAT new of a idea.

Lockark wrote:
Doesn't Blue table painting already offer a similar product already? I remember them showing off full boards and stuff they have made for customers before.

Why does this REALLY need a kick starter? What your doing is bassicly a commission based/made to order terrain serves. This isn't THAT new of a idea.

This can't possibly be a honest question? Another, established company makes a similar item so there's no need? Perhaps you should have been telling PP that when they decided to make a miniature based wargame, because GW were already there...

He needs an initial investment to commence as a business, equipment, materials and the ability to feed himself whilst the business is establishing it's self.

If people don't want to invest, don't. That's the wonder of these funding projects, you vote with your cash and small businesses can establish the financial means to start in a difficult economy.

I wish the guy the very best for his business and admire his will to start something up.

In all honesty, I'd plop down the money if I didn't already have the materials sitting around to make my own table(that giant ass pink board has been in my garage for like 6 months now, just no time).

My main concern was over versatility. I generally don't like scenery that is molded into the table. So for me, for every piece of molded terrain, I'd want an extra plain piece.

So perhaps a 4x8, with 2 boards having hills and the rest flat, which is likely what I'll end up doing with my table.

Best of luck to you either way.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Lockark wrote:
Doesn't Blue table painting already offer a similar product already? I remember them showing off full boards and stuff they have made for customers before.

Why does this REALLY need a kick starter? What your doing is bassicly a commission based/made to order terrain serves. This isn't THAT new of a idea.

This can't possibly be a honest question? Another, established company makes a similar item so there's no need?

That's not what I was trying to say at all.

This is a idea that others have already done, and is a proven idea. If he wants to start a studio making these boards for people, then I see nothing wrong with that.

But why does it need a kick starter? What are the over head coasts he is trying to cover with a kick starter? What risks is he trying to reduce by going to crowd sourcing? He's trying to raise $5000 for effectively a webstore were he produces foam terrain on commission out of his garage...


Bassicly foam board tables made on commission isn't that ground breaking, and his doesn't seem that special compared to other studios who offer the same service. How is his so special that he needs to raise $5000 1st so he can start making them for people?

It's nothing ageist him or his idea. But it feels like their is a lack of details.