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So, I was playing a game the other day against this new Chaos Dragon. My opponent flew the thing over me, (rear facing me after) then shot me with the torrent. Now, I was somewhat in a disagreement with him about him doing this, as the weapon is on the front. But then on closer inspection, the torrent rule does just say, within 12” of the weapon. I did let him do it, as it kinda follows the rules for FMC’s & Flyers.

Just wondering if anyone has anything else to say about this...?
Also, really don’t like the dragon as a model.

If the dragon was facing directly away from your unit, sounds like it was some illegal shooting.

There are two things to keep in mind when firing a Heldrake or any unit like it:

1) the model's Line of Sight
(Ref. pgs 8, 12 & especially 16, left side, Out of Sight rules)

2) the weapon's firing arc (pg 72)



The model's Line of Sight can be loosely stated to be 180 degrees forward, or from its "eyes". This is also called TLOS.

The weapon's firing arc depends on its mounting style, and is specific to vehicle models. The Heldrake itself has a hullmounted weapon which is located in the mouth, facing forward. This gives it a frontal 45 degree firing arc.

Because of the Torrent rule, you can place the narrow end of the template anywhere inside that 45 degree arc and within 12 inches of the Heldrake.

The wide end may therefor be placed over models outside of the 45 degree arc, but that are within the heldrake's 180 degrees TLOS, and those models may be allocated wounds from the shooting attack of the Bale Flamer.

If he was placing the template behind the Heldrake AND outside the 45 degree arc, he was violating both the TLOS rules and the weapon's 45 degree firing arc.

A passing glance at the Torrent rule may tempt players to think they can place the template anywhere they want within 12" of the Heldrake's weapon barrel, and though technically true, it will never allow you to allocate wounds to models that are out of LoS. You still have to obey normal rules for LoS.

Hope this helps.

The think part of the problem is that the Hellhound weapon that functions the same way is turret mounted, giving 360 degrees of fire. People might have a little confusion there.

If the weapon is described as hull mounted then it's open/shut. If it's not listed, then you look at the weapon and draw a logical conclusion. Shooting it out of the dragon's ass seems a little suspect...

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
The think part of the problem is that the Hellhound weapon that functions the same way is turret mounted, giving 360 degrees of fire. People might have a little confusion there.

If the weapon is described as hull mounted then it's open/shut. If it's not listed, then you look at the weapon and draw a logical conclusion. Shooting it out of the dragon's ass seems a little suspect...

DoW

Check my sig bro

 Boneblade wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:
The think part of the problem is that the Hellhound weapon that functions the same way is turret mounted, giving 360 degrees of fire. People might have a little confusion there.

If the weapon is described as hull mounted then it's open/shut. If it's not listed, then you look at the weapon and draw a logical conclusion. Shooting it out of the dragon's ass seems a little suspect...

DoW

Check my sig bro

Thanks for this dude. I read your quote under your post, & actually thought you were the bloke I was playing.... as his names John.

Nice one. Seemed a bit moody at the time.

Haha and thus the world gets a little smaller. But only because of the irony of a randomly chosen generic name used on an internet forum matching an actual person. Thankfully, I'm not really John. Nor would I try to poop a Bale Flamer template on anything behind my Heldrake.. it's just not polite.

 Boneblade wrote:
The Heldrake itself has a hullmounted weapon which is located in the mouth, facing forward. This gives it a frontal 45 degree firing arc.

Where in the rules does it say a neck is a hull mount? I'd think the body would be the hull. A neck/head looks a lot more like a turret to me. You know, most things can swivel their neck.

Kevlar wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:
The Heldrake itself has a hullmounted weapon which is located in the mouth, facing forward. This gives it a frontal 45 degree firing arc.

Where in the rules does it say a neck is a hull mount? I'd think the body would be the hull. A neck/head looks a lot more like a turret to me. You know, most things can swivel their neck.

Might increase the firing arc, but not as far as 360

Kevlar wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:
The Heldrake itself has a hullmounted weapon which is located in the mouth, facing forward. This gives it a frontal 45 degree firing arc.

Where in the rules does it say a neck is a hull mount? I'd think the body would be the hull. A neck/head looks a lot more like a turret to me. You know, most things can swivel their neck.

The neck and head are not the weapon. The barrel of the gun is the weapon. It cannot swivel or pivot, and is CLEARLY not a pintle mounted weapon. Therefor, it must be hull mounted. By trying to claim the dragon can swivel or pivot it's neck (though cool) you are inserting house rules that extend its firing arc.

Ha, I didn't even see your sig. I only wish a conversation like that was only ever a joke...

To be honest, I'd be pretty comfortable giving it a similar arc to the ass-cannon (ha!) on the top of a Stormraven. Anything around 150-170 degrees wouldn't be too crazy.

DoW

I'm not familiar with the assault cannon on a storm raven but if it's hull mounted and otherwise cannot move 170 degrees would be very lenient. In the case of the Heldrake, at any rate, 45 is plenty. In combination with the torrent rule the bale flamer can still hit quite a lot and do plenty of damage. About the only targets excluded, in fact, are ones directly behind the model.

 Boneblade wrote:
I'm not familiar with the assault cannon on a storm raven but if it's hull mounted and otherwise cannot move 170 degrees would be very lenient. In the case of the Heldrake, at any rate, 45 is plenty. In combination with the torrent rule the bale flamer can still hit quite a lot and do plenty of damage. About the only targets excluded, in fact, are ones directly behind the model.

Not true. Anything out of the 45 degree arc cannot be wounded, even if you can/must legally place the template there.

Just like any other template, it must be placed in it's proper arc. Downside Templates can only be used while hovering IIRC.
Should have just Vector Striked

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Just like any other template, it must be placed in it's proper arc. Downside Templates can only be used while hovering IIRC.
Should have just Vector Striked

You can shoot Templates while Zooming - there's nothing restricting that.
And the goal would be to Vector Strike and flame the same unit.

 Boneblade wrote:
I'm not familiar with the assault cannon on a storm raven but if it's hull mounted and otherwise cannot move 170 degrees would be very lenient. In the case of the Heldrake, at any rate, 45 is plenty. In combination with the torrent rule the bale flamer can still hit quite a lot and do plenty of damage. About the only targets excluded, in fact, are ones directly behind the model.

The SR Ass-cannon isn't hull mounted but has a section of the aircraft that precludes it from rotating approximately 80 degrees to either side. It certainly cannot shoot behind itself, regardless of the mounting, due to the construction of the vehicle.

The leniency I would give the Heldrake is because unless it's specifically described as hull mounted, we all know you must look at the model to determine the arc of fire. If that's the case, given that it has a flexible, dragon-like neck, I would be willing to allow it a little extra flexibility.

Besides, there is a 100% chance one of my Vendetta pilots will put a lascannon down its gullet next turn

DoW

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Just like any other template, it must be placed in it's proper arc. Downside Templates can only be used while hovering IIRC.
Should have just Vector Striked

You can shoot Templates while Zooming - there's nothing restricting that.
And the goal would be to Vector Strike and flame the same unit.

Yar, misinterpreted Vector Strike. Saw "counts as already firing one weapon" applied it to a vehicle with only one weapon.

Ugh need to re-read all rules for fliers ...

rigeld2 wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:
I'm not familiar with the assault cannon on a storm raven but if it's hull mounted and otherwise cannot move 170 degrees would be very lenient. In the case of the Heldrake, at any rate, 45 is plenty. In combination with the torrent rule the bale flamer can still hit quite a lot and do plenty of damage. About the only targets excluded, in fact, are ones directly behind the model.

Not true. Anything out of the 45 degree arc cannot be wounded, even if you can/must legally place the template there.

Go ahead and quote the actual rule stipulating this, if you don't mind. Model LoS and weapon firing arc are different things.



Edit: To expand on my position and use actual rules...

Scenario: Heldrake is firing his weapon at a squad of Devastators. The nearest model of the target unit is approximately 47 degrees off center of the direction the Heldrake is facing.

TLOS rules: model must be able to see at least one model in the target unit to target them. (SATISFIED) (pg 8)

Vehicle Weapon Line of Sight: Instead of drawing a direct line between the barrel of the Heldrake's weapon and the devastator, use the Torrent rule to legally place the narrow end of the template within 12" of the weapon's barrel and inside a 45 degree arc. (SATISFIED) (pg 72 & Torrent)

Allocating Wounds: The firing model, Heldrake, can see one or more models in the squad of Devastators as defined by TLOS on pg 8. Therefor wounds as a result of the shooting attack may be allocated to any visible models in the target unit. (Ref. Pg 16, Out of Sight rules)


-----

To further clarify.. because of the Torrent rules, it is perfectly legal to place the narrow end of the template right beneath the mouth of the Heldrake and attempt to "hit" units behind or directly beneath the Heldrake. The only thing preventing a player from actually doing this in a game is the fact that the Pg 16 Out of Sight rules expressly prohibit the allocation of wounds to models which are not visible to the firing unit.

Nowhere does it stipulate that models must be within the firing arc of a vehicle mounted weapon to count as "visible" to the firing unit. This is where the distinction between a weapon's firing arc and the firing unit's TLOS becomes important.

The same logic applies perfectly for hitting models outside of the Hull-mounted weapons 45 degree arc, except that they may frequently be visible to the firing unit and therefor do not engage the Out of Sight rules on Pg 16. Lacking that, please quote a rule somewhere which prohibits the Heldrake from legally placing a template as per the Torrent rules and then allocating wounds as per the normal LoS shooting rules.

Didn't they just FAQ it that templates can kill things the firing model could not see? I know this was for deviating small blast templates, but this is YMDC after all....

 Phazael wrote:
Didn't they just FAQ it that templates can kill things the firing model could not see? I know this was for deviating small blast templates, but this is YMDC after all....

You are referring to:

Q: Can blast markers hit a model that is not in the attacker’s line of
sight if they do NOT scatter? (p33)
A: Yes, as long as the target enemy model for the blast
weapon is within the firer’s line of sight.


Unfortunately, this is not for Template weapons.

 DogOfWar wrote:
The think part of the problem is that the Hellhound weapon that functions the same way is turret mounted, giving 360 degrees of fire. People might have a little confusion there.

If the weapon is described as hull mounted then it's open/shut. If it's not listed, then you look at the weapon and draw a logical conclusion. Shooting it out of the dragon's ass seems a little suspect...

DoW

is the head a turret or part of the hull. It certainly looks like the head can swivvle a bit.

The dragon can see in a 45 degree arc from it's gun, it cannot flame things behind it unless one of the models in the unit is in sight.

 juraigamer wrote:
The dragon can see in a 45 degree arc from it's gun, it cannot flame things behind it unless one of the models in the unit is in sight.

Be careful.

The Bale Flamer weapon has a 45 degree firing arc.

The "Dragon", being the Heldrake model, has a LOS which is entirely based on TLOS rules / drawn from the eyes.

 Boneblade wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The dragon can see in a 45 degree arc from it's gun, it cannot flame things behind it unless one of the models in the unit is in sight.

Be careful.

The Bale Flamer weapon has a 45 degree firing arc.

The "Dragon", being the Heldrake model, has a LOS which is entirely based on TLOS rules / drawn from the eyes.

Actually the eyes don't matter as it is a vehicle and vehicles draw LoS directly from the weapon and fire arc.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The dragon can see in a 45 degree arc from it's gun, it cannot flame things behind it unless one of the models in the unit is in sight.

Be careful.

The Bale Flamer weapon has a 45 degree firing arc.

The "Dragon", being the Heldrake model, has a LOS which is entirely based on TLOS rules / drawn from the eyes.

Actually the eyes don't matter as it is a vehicle and vehicles draw LoS directly from the weapon and fire arc.

You are trying to state that all vehicles have a LoS which is strictly limited to their weapon's firing arcs. Not only is that not true, it's not stated anywhere in the rules.

Lets consider Dreadnaughts. I remember these cuddly fellas from 5th, when they used to blow up my own rhinos.

A Dreadnaught is a vehicle which is also a Walker. In the shooting phase, Walkers pivot on the spot to aim their guns at the target. This is done AFTER declaring the target.

But wait.

The Dreadnaught's weapons are described specifically to have a 45 degree horizontal arc of fire. What happens if the target unit is outside that 45 degrees? Suspiciously, the walker still pivots to the unit and THEN fires. If the Walker, being a Vehicle, could only draw LoS through its weapon's firing arcs, it would be unable to pivot against any target outside of the 45 degree arc (because it could not see them and therefor cannot initiate a shooting attack against a model that is not in it's LOS).


A vehicle's LOS is not determined by its weapon's firing arc. The weapon's LOS is determined by the weapon's firing arc.

 Boneblade wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:
I'm not familiar with the assault cannon on a storm raven but if it's hull mounted and otherwise cannot move 170 degrees would be very lenient. In the case of the Heldrake, at any rate, 45 is plenty. In combination with the torrent rule the bale flamer can still hit quite a lot and do plenty of damage. About the only targets excluded, in fact, are ones directly behind the model.

Not true. Anything out of the 45 degree arc cannot be wounded, even if you can/must legally place the template there.

Go ahead and quote the actual rule stipulating this, if you don't mind. Model LoS and weapon firing arc are different things.

*SNIP*

Page 72 describes how vehicle LoS is treated, Hell drakes weapons appear to be hull mounted under those rules.

Page12 handles targeting for LoS.

Page 16 tells us we cannot allocate wounds to models out of LoS

Now, you can place the flamer template so the narrow end is within the LoS and the wider end is out but your never going to wound anything outside of your LoS as per the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Boneblade wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The dragon can see in a 45 degree arc from it's gun, it cannot flame things behind it unless one of the models in the unit is in sight.

Be careful.

The Bale Flamer weapon has a 45 degree firing arc.

The "Dragon", being the Heldrake model, has a LOS which is entirely based on TLOS rules / drawn from the eyes.

The distinction makes no difference for either of its weapon options, or any vehicle for that matter. The weapons LoS is the vehicles because its the only thing LoS is used for with Vehicles.

In your scenario Bausk, the Dreadnaught could not pivot to face a target outside of it's weapons 45 degree arc.

Let's try it like this.

Pg 72

"When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them at their target and then trace the line of sight from each weapon's mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models." If they can be seen, the vehicle may fire.

If they cannot be seen, in a traditional situation, that particular weapon cannot fire.

However...

Pg 43, Torrent

"When firing a weapon with this special rule, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the wide end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon."

Torrent weapons have a special rule as to how they are fired and how they may be placed. This over rides the normal rules as to how they fire. The Template may then be legally placed with the narrow end inside the 45 degree arc and within 12" of the weapon, and the wide end over models that are outside the 45 degree arc.

Again, the model's LOS is not determined by the firing arc of its weapon. This is never stated in the rules. Refer to the Walkers for an example of a situation where the vehicle's LOS is greater than its weapon's arc of fire. (And a reason for which the vehicle uses LoS for other than firing a specific weapon, in direct contradiction to your statement that vehicle LOS is never used for anything else).

Pg 16, Out of Sight rules only stipulate that wounds cannot be allocated to model's that are outside of the FIRING UNITS LoS. This is the only entry in the rules prohibiting the allocation of wounds in a shooting attack (that I currently know of). The other LOS rules deal with whether or not the unit is eligible to fire the weapon at all, which is covered neatly in the Torrent rule.

Find permission to trace LoS to any point on the vehicle other than the weapon.
If you can do that, you can shoot behind you.

What youre missing is that vehicles do NOT have LOS outside of their weapons arcs

They really dont

Which is why they FAQ'd the CHaos dread to remind you of this, by pointing out that fire frenzy only hit anything within the 2 45 degree fire arcs from the arm weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What youre missing is that vehicles do NOT have LOS outside of their weapons arcs

They really dont

Which is why they FAQ'd the CHaos dread to remind you of this, by pointing out that fire frenzy only hit anything within the 2 45 degree fire arcs from the arm weapons.

Do you have a link to the old FAQ for the old codex in the old edition of the game, Nosferatu? Not that's it is necessarily relevant here. . hmm. But I'm still curious, because IIRC, that FAQ was more along the lines of the dreadnaught would not pivot to shoot a friendly model, and therefor had to target something that was already in it's weapon's LOS.

 Boneblade wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What youre missing is that vehicles do NOT have LOS outside of their weapons arcs

They really dont

Which is why they FAQ'd the CHaos dread to remind you of this, by pointing out that fire frenzy only hit anything within the 2 45 degree fire arcs from the arm weapons.

Do you have a link to the old FAQ for the old codex in the old edition of the game, Nosferatu? Not that's it is necessarily relevant here. . hmm. But I'm still curious, because IIRC, that FAQ was more along the lines of the dreadnaught would not pivot to shoot a friendly model, and therefor had to target something that was already in it's weapon's LOS.

No, they FAQed it to say that you check LoS then pivot, which is what the Frenzy rule required.
There is nothing in the Walker rules that requires the shooting phase pivot to be towards a unit it can "see", just to face its target.
Have you found permission for a vehicle to check LoS other than from its guns yet?