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hey guys this may have been mentioned before but why are champions like Lucius Kharn Typhus etc not daemon princes ? they have served their respective gods for 10 thousand years and from the descriptions in the Dex they have been doing an excellent job at furthering the interests of their patron. So why are they not daemon princes ? were they offered but they refused? or have the things they have done in the name of the gods not been enough

Probably because they've refused or repelled any attempts to be possessed. They'd rather be independent. Those that have become daemon princes have completely accepted the Chaos Gods as their personal lords and saviors.

I believe out of the CSM named characters, Kharn is really the only one that is truly all for Khorne, and keeping him as his normal space marine self probably leads to more blood and skulls. I mean Angron sits on a daemon world, and doesn't do much of the blood and skulls bit anymore.

I think it boils down to the fact that the Chaos Gods are mysterious, fickle, and chaotic. They turn some of their greatest champions into Chaos Spawn all the time.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I mean Angron sits on a daemon world, and doesn't do much of the blood and skulls bit anymore.

Err...no.

Angron was responsible for the Dominion of Fire, which was a massive bloodbath that lasted 200 years and caused a larger loss of Imperial Space than all the Black Crusades combined. Not to mention the First War of Armageddon. Angron's not one to just sit on his Daemon World, like his traitor brothers.

Also, time is not flowing equivilently in the warp.

As far as Angron is concerned, the Heresy ended, he ascended to Daemonhood, and as his first act went on the Dominion of Fire for 200 years. Then the first war for Armageddon. And he's now licking his wounds from when he got banished by all those GKs wondering "Who the heck were those guys?"

So for Angron its only been 3-400 years since the Heresy, and he spent a good portion of those in realspace fighting the Imperium.

The other Primarchs may only think a few years have passed.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I think it boils down to the fact that the Chaos Gods are mysterious, fickle, and chaotic. They turn some of their greatest champions into Chaos Spawn all the time.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I mean Angron sits on a daemon world, and doesn't do much of the blood and skulls bit anymore.

Err...no.

Angron was responsible for the Dominion of Fire, which was a massive bloodbath that lasted 200 years and caused a larger loss of Imperial Space than all the Black Crusades combined. Not to mention the First War of Armageddon. Angron's not one to just sit on his Daemon World, like his traitor brothers.

I have to agree that Angron is the most active Daemon Primarch. He gets banished a lot and needs to sit it out for a few hundred years, but he's back in action as soon as he can be.

The Chaos gods need mortal champions, they gain little from Daemonkin (except from the acts carried out by them).

Size alone does not a daemon prince make. I mean, the powers attributed to them are more terrifying than those exhibited by the average daemon prince (well, Kharn does essentially the same thing as a daemon prince- hacking things to bits- but he probably does it better. The only change that becoming truly daemonic would make to them would be restricting their access to realspace.

Maybe the Chaos Gods think it's more fun to leave them as they are?

Im dont have much knowledge on Angron but i would think that the chaos champs denied daemonhood so they could stay in the mortal realm and lead their chapter. Btw are csm armies called chapters like Sm armies??

Boss Grot Punt wrote:
Im dont have much knowledge on Angron but i would think that the chaos champs denied daemonhood so they could stay in the mortal realm and lead their chapter. Btw are csm armies called chapters like Sm armies??

Legions I think.

Abaddon has been established as having denied Daemon Princedom multiple times. So, its been offered to him, he just doesn't want it. This is probably the same for Typhus, Lucius, Kharn, Ahriman and Huron. Daemon Princes are dependent on the Gods for power. If the Gods stop liking them, their Daemonic forms lose all power.

Imagine if your body was impossible, and the only way you could exist was if your boss liked you. It would be very stressful, keeping your boss' approval all the time. Only really crazy people, or people who really liked their bosses, would choose to exist like that.

From what I've gathered Ahriman is not one to strive for Daemonhood, but rather to learn how to avoid it altogether.

To me, it's more like he's running away from it and the tragedy that GW (and subsequently BL novels) has injected into the Thousand Sons' fate means that they are both independent and pawns at the same time.. Sad really.

Read the Battle of the Fang.. Find the word "Tzeentch" in there for me. No? Doesn't sound like "Cult marines" to me.

Slaanesh loves Lucius dying and the ecstasy of his 'rebirth'. Not much good if he's an immortal daemon prince. Kharn is Khorne's mortal Avatar. He's already got Doombreed for his immortal avatar. Typhus need to be able to travel to spread his diseases - the power required to sustain a Daemon Prince in the material universe would make him ineffective at his task. Ahriman is immune to mutation thanks to the Rubric. Bile is just a crazy scientist. And Abaddon wants to destroy the Imperium whilst 'mortal', proving that he is better than Horus ever was.

The Thousand Sons actually resent their pact with Tzeentch, and would gladly return to where they were prior to aligning with Tzeentch. heck, they would probably be loyal if it wasn't for their absolute hatred of the space pups and the whole daemon thing.

Definitely interesting how a tsons sorcerer can purchase Gift of Mutation and that Ahriman can turn into a spawn.

Shame, really.

I'll drop it right there.

Hmmm, if Lucius turned into a Daemon Prince, would it just turn back into Lucius?

Maybe....

Ahriman fully believes he is in fact not a slave to Tzeentch. A deluded point of view, but it explains why he has not ascended to Princedom, despite being arguably the most competent Chaos Marine period.

Abaddon is confirmed to not want Princedom because his little tiffs into realspace would be less frequent then, and the Chaos Gods allow this.

Kharn is too frothing at the mouth to really think about this kind of thing, but presumably Khorne prefers to have Kharn running around in realspace kicking asses and taking skulls.

Dunno about Lucius or Typhus.