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2012/10/19 10:58:01
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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Hi all
I am just wondering on opinions and thoughts as to what would have happened to the imperium if more legions sided with the emperor rather then Horus and he had been defeated before he caused so much destruction to the empire.
The emperor would not be confined to the golden throne and it is unsure wether something like the codex would have even been authored seemingly allowing mass production of Astartes like there was before the heresy.
Just wondering what peoples opinions, suggestions and thoughts are on the subject.
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2012/10/19 10:59:48
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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You have that explained in "Legion" novel.
I will quote from Lexicanum: "The Cabal believed that, after the Heresy, a scintilla of the honourable being he once was would remain within Horus, eating at him and fueling a self-destructive sense of self-hatred and loathing that would see Horus fall on his subjects in an acceleration of the violence of the Heresy, creating civil strife amongst the traitor and Chaotic forces that would culminate in a final armageddon. The end result of Horus leading humanity would be total extermination of the human species within two or three generations...however, if this were so, the powers of Chaos, so heavily invested in humanity, would be extinguished with it."
In other words: If Horus won Mankind would get exterminated in two to three generations and with them three of the Chaos Gods ( Slaanesh would stay because he was created by Eldar ). But Cabal are aliens, mostly Eldar, so it would be no surprise if they lied to Alpharus to get him betray the Emperor and to side with Horus.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/19 11:02:13
 The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
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2012/10/19 11:10:44
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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The Cabal wasn't comprised mostly of Eldar, as far as I remember there was only the one who revealed himself, the others were misc races of Xenos. Slaanesh would not endure anymore than the other gods if that prophecy had come true. The ancient Eldar created Slaanesh with their raw emotion but the remaining Craftworl Eldar control their desires so do not fuel The Dark Prince anymore. The Dark Eldar may be twisted creatures but they sate their lusts within the confines of Commoragh and sap any soul essence for themselves, Slaanesh cannot touch them in the Webway. Man is a billion times more populous than any race save the Orks (who don't register with the Chaos gods) so their destruction would have taken the Big 4 out of the game. Of course joke would be on the Cabal because without the Imperium the Necron return would have been able to easily herarld the end for the Eldar anyway.
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2012/10/19 11:25:39
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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The Imperium would be rebuilt and the damage repaired. Guilliman would become the new Warmaster, and safeguards would be written up by him and the Emperor to ensure that the Heresy couldn't happen again on such a scale. The safeguards would probably be similar those within the Codex Astartes, but not nearly as severe.
A more comprehensive answer would depend on what acts within the Heresy happen and which ones never come to pass. Does Magnus blow up the webway on Terra in this version? How much momentum does the Imperial Creed get? etc.
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2012/10/19 12:34:21
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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Im talking if horus had been stopped before the dropsite massacre took place so the iron hands, raven guard and salamanders would still be full strength, also with the emperor not confined to the golden throne how they would be handling the tyranids and necron threats.
out of curiosity also does anyone think the heresy would of still happened if guilliman had been promoted to warmaster instead of horus in the first place?
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2012/10/19 14:26:13
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Best way I see to prevent the Horus Heresy from happening (or at least reduce the damage) would have been to:
1) The Emperor compromised at Nikaea instead of favoring the Wolves.
2) The Emperor personally intervened over the Thousand Sons' problems (lets face it - their psychic abilities and scholarly natures made them both the most at risk from Chaos and the most potent weapon against it).
3) The Emperor named Sanguinius as Warmaster instead of Horus (Horus would never have opposed/envied Sanguinius - he personally believed Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, and not him).
4) The Emperor brought Magnus and the Thousand Sons along with Dorn and the Imperial Fists back to Terra - the latter to work on the Imperial Palace, the former to work on the Golden Throne and the Imperial Webway (this way the Imperial Webway would be completed much faster than if the Emperor worked on it alone).
5) The Heresy would have broken out anyway - Lorgar, Angron, and Mortarion's grudges against the Emperor would have led to open rebellion sooner or later. Perturabo and Kurze would be wild cards in this situation, just as likely to support one side as the other. Alpharius Omegon...depends on what gobbledegook the Cabal come up with in this situation. Fulgrim...that would depend on how he dealt with the Laer here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/19 14:27:21
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/10/19 21:32:33
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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According to Know No Fear, Guilliman was basically Horus+1. He had Horus' ingenuity, vision, tactic and strategic brilliance. He had Horus' leadership skills, etc.
The only things Horus had that Guilliman didn't have was the desire to be Warmaster, the arrogance, and the charisma.
So basically, Guilliman would have been a better warmaster than Horus anyway. Sad to say. God damn Ultramarines.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/19 21:32:43
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2012/10/19 22:19:39
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Had Horus won the Heresy the Imperium would have collapsed rather quickly. Had Horus won right after the Drop SIte Massacre, this would not have been the case but as the Heresy dragged on the traitors gradually fell more and more to Chaos and insanity. Do you really think the Emperor's Children, Night Lords, World Eaters, and so on would have shown any interest in ruling a stable Imperium like how Guilliman & the other Primarchs came together after the Heresy? Of course not. The whole Imperium would have become what the Eye of Terror basically is today.
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My Armies:
5,500pts 
2,700pts 
2,000pts 
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2012/10/19 22:37:16
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine
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The way I see it, if the twins had ignored the Cabal and sided with the Emperor, they would have just had Horus assassinated, virus bombed the planet of the Laer, arranged for the Word Bearers to have a massive and unfortunate accident and killed Typhon before he sold the Death Guard out to Nurgle.
On the other hand, the Emperor selecting a new Warmaster could have caused another Heresy anyway, since he'd likely choose Sanguinius, which the Lion would be a bit put out about.
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Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it. |
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2012/10/20 18:18:01
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Sniping Hexa
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 Tadashi wrote:Best way I see to prevent the Horus Heresy from happening (or at least reduce the damage) would have been to:
1) The Emperor compromised at Nikaea instead of favoring the Wolves.
2) The Emperor personally intervened over the Thousand Sons' problems (lets face it - their psychic abilities and scholarly natures made them both the most at risk from Chaos and the most potent weapon against it).
3) The Emperor named Sanguinius as Warmaster instead of Horus (Horus would never have opposed/envied Sanguinius - he personally believed Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, and not him).
4) The Emperor brought Magnus and the Thousand Sons along with Dorn and the Imperial Fists back to Terra - the latter to work on the Imperial Palace, the former to work on the Golden Throne and the Imperial Webway (this way the Imperial Webway would be completed much faster than if the Emperor worked on it alone).
5) The Heresy would have broken out anyway - Lorgar, Angron, and Mortarion's grudges against the Emperor would have led to open rebellion sooner or later. Perturabo and Kurze would be wild cards in this situation, just as likely to support one side as the other. Alpharius Omegon...depends on what gobbledegook the Cabal come up with in this situation. Fulgrim...that would depend on how he dealt with the Laer here.
I think the main way to have helped prevent the heresy would have been the Emperor not reacting so harshly to Lorgar's worship or actually telling Horus what his plans were for the golden throne.
However as you say the heresy would have broken out even if the Emperor hadnt been so heavy handed in some situations, even if it wasnt Horus leading the rebellion (see the "Doranian Heresy")..
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Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:All I can say is... thank you vodo40k...
Zweischneid wrote:No way man. A Space Marine in itself is scary. But a Marine WITHOUT helmet wears at least 3-times as much plot-armour as a Marine with helmet. And heaven forbid if the Marine would also happen to have an intimidating looking, vertical scar. Then you're surly boned. Those guys are the worst. Not a chance I'd say.
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2012/10/22 05:22:19
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle
Laguna Beach, OC, CA, USA
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Given that Horus was the Emperor's favorite son, I believe that once the Imperial Webway was completed, the Emperor would retreat from mankind and become reclusive or otherwise leave the Imperium to fight off Chaos by himself. He would leave the Imperium in the hands of the remaining Primarchs and they would finish his Crusade. Eventually, the Imperium would evolve into a more stable society and many organizations like the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't exist.
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 A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy
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2012/10/22 09:40:28
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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 Augustine_Maven wrote:Given that Horus was the Emperor's favorite son, I believe that once the Imperial Webway was completed, the Emperor would retreat from mankind and become reclusive or otherwise leave the Imperium to fight off Chaos by himself. He would leave the Imperium in the hands of the remaining Primarchs and they would finish his Crusade. Eventually, the Imperium would evolve into a more stable society and many organizations like the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't exist.
I would agree...only that the Primarchs were meant to go into seclusion with the Emperor within the Imperial Palace. An entire underground section of the Imperial Palace was in fact built as an underground home for the Primarchs, with specific areas designed for an individual Primarch's needs/tastes. Apart from Horus (as Warmaster), and Magnus (who ultimately meant to lead the exploration/conquest of the Imperial Webway), I imagine the other Primarchs were to go into seclusion with the Emperor (who would leave the Imperium's governance to the Council of Terra) until Mankind's need was dire - Tyranids/Necrons, perhaps?
Regarding Chaos...well, the Imperial Truth was meant to emasculate it and ensure stagnation would never set in...but I think the Emperor wouldn't have gone into seclusion until Mankind's psychic evolution was completed.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/10/22 14:11:29
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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BlaxicanX wrote:According to Know No Fear, Guilliman was basically Horus+1. He had Horus' ingenuity, vision, tactic and strategic brilliance. He had Horus' leadership skills, etc.
The only things Horus had that Guilliman didn't have was the desire to be Warmaster, the arrogance, and the charisma.
So basically, Guilliman would have been a better warmaster than Horus anyway. Sad to say. God damn Ultramarines.
yesterday i was listening "Burden of Duty" and Dorn clearly said (after Horus rebeled) "I 'am now a Warmaster" or emperor entiteld me full control of the loyalists...so I disagree with you...Horus > Dorn > Rob
R.G. was a perfect general ;had a vison; had his own empire,thought ahead - agree with that, but little lower in Emp's eyes than Dorn...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/22 14:21:28
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/10/22 14:24:08
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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 DarthMarko wrote:BlaxicanX wrote:According to Know No Fear, Guilliman was basically Horus+1. He had Horus' ingenuity, vision, tactic and strategic brilliance. He had Horus' leadership skills, etc.
The only things Horus had that Guilliman didn't have was the desire to be Warmaster, the arrogance, and the charisma.
So basically, Guilliman would have been a better warmaster than Horus anyway. Sad to say. God damn Ultramarines.
yesterday i was listening "Burden of Duty" and Dorn clearly said (after Horus rebeled) "I 'am now a Warmaster" or emperor entiteld me full control of the loyalists...so I disagree with you...Horus > Dorn > Rob
R.G. was a perfect general ;had a vison; had his own empire,thought ahead - agree with that, but little lower in Emp's eyes than Dorn...
I disagree...if you hadn't noticed, Dorn was on Terra, Guilliman wasn't. Had the latter and his legion been on or near Terra, he'd have been in command of the Terran defense. And it would have succeeded...
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/10/22 14:27:04
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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So wait you think that Rob would be better in organizing defences against Horus? Nobody could match Dorn in that....
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ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/10/22 14:32:01
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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DarthMarko wrote:So wait you think that Rob would be better in organizing defences against Horus? Nobody could match Dorn in that....
Actually, Horus considered Guilliman and Magnus as the biggest threats to his victory. The sheer size of the XIII Legion and the superior overall performance of Guilliman and his legion forced Horus to go out of his way (and to humor Lorgar) to keep the Ultramarines busy and away from Terra. Magnus...well, Magnus was set up by Tzeentch, so Horus didn't have to do more than 'nudge' Russ to force Magnus and the XV Legion from the Emperor's side.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 14:32:17
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/10/22 14:38:56
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Tadashi wrote: DarthMarko wrote:So wait you think that Rob would be better in organizing defences against Horus? Nobody could match Dorn in that....
Actually, Horus considered Guilliman and Magnus as the biggest threats to his victory. The sheer size of the XIII Legion and the superior overall performance of Guilliman and his legion forced Horus to go out of his way (and to humor Lorgar) to keep the Ultramarines busy and away from Terra. Magnus...well, Magnus was set up by Tzeentch, so Horus didn't have to do more than 'nudge' Russ to force Magnus and the XV Legion from the Emperor's side.
So if Guiliman was near Terra who do you think would organize defences? Guiliman ?
Hell no...and besides, Guiliman had his own empire to run...
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ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/10/22 14:43:27
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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DarthMarko wrote: Tadashi wrote: DarthMarko wrote:So wait you think that Rob would be better in organizing defences against Horus? Nobody could match Dorn in that....
Actually, Horus considered Guilliman and Magnus as the biggest threats to his victory. The sheer size of the XIII Legion and the superior overall performance of Guilliman and his legion forced Horus to go out of his way (and to humor Lorgar) to keep the Ultramarines busy and away from Terra. Magnus...well, Magnus was set up by Tzeentch, so Horus didn't have to do more than 'nudge' Russ to force Magnus and the XV Legion from the Emperor's side.
So if Guiliman was near Terra who do you think would organize defences? Guiliman ? Hell no...and besides, Guiliman had his own empire to run...
Actually, yes - Guilliman would have been in overall command. Dorn would have overseen the fortification of Terra and the Imperial Palace, but overall command over all loyalist forces would have been given to Guilliman. And in any case, the only reason Guilliman and the XIII Legion were concentrated at Ultramar at the time was because Horus and Lorgar manipulated events to bring about the Battle of Calth in an effort to neutralize Guilliman and his legion.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 14:44:09
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/10/22 14:49:34
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Maybe but Dorn said THIS : so think on that friend...
and btw Horus looked down on Guillman, he even considerd Lion as bigger threat for the chair..
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 14:56:47
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/10/22 14:55:09
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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And as I said, Guilliman was nowhere near Terra. Had he been, he would have been in overall command, not Dorn.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/10/22 15:06:15
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Tadashi wrote:
And as I said, Guilliman was nowhere near Terra. Had he been, he would have been in overall command, not Dorn.
All I see that Dorn was always near Emp when critical moves were drawn...Rob wasn't so do the math...
and Horus looked down upon Rob thats pretty obvious from the books...O.K. Rob and Lion were occupied by their own suprise battles but still...
I hate why are people diminishing "IF" and Dorn in defence of Terra in which they played critical role...
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/10/23 14:44:56
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/10/22 18:23:58
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Guilliman was the Emperor's sword, Dorn his shield. That more or less sums up their relationship. Not sure he would have been given command of Terra had he been there, as the Imperial Fists were better with siege/defensive warfare.
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My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts
2,000pts
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2012/10/22 23:51:19
Subject: Re:If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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DarthMarko wrote:
I hate why are people diminishing "IF" and Dorn in defence of Terra in which they played critical role...
'cuz they went emo after the Siege of Terra, that's why.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/10/23 08:15:39
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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Rob was a strategic genius second only to the emperor himself so if he had been there he would have command of the loyalist forces during the battle, Dorn would have been charged with fortifying the planet. It doesnt matter how well you prepare for a battle if you make all the wrong moves in it and everyone knows Guilliman was a better strategist then any of the other primarchs
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2012/10/23 13:32:45
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Hulking Hunter-class Warmech
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IronFrog wrote:Guilliman was a better strategist then any of the other primarchs
A better logistician. A damn good strategist, on par with the best, but Horus and the Lion (as well as possibly others) were known for that too. Gulliman's main strengths were logistics and organisation.
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2012/10/23 14:57:02
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Tibbsy wrote:IronFrog wrote:Guilliman was a better strategist then any of the other primarchs
A better logistician. A damn good strategist, on par with the best, but Horus and the Lion (as well as possibly others) were known for that too. Gulliman's main strengths were logistics and organisation.
Agree,good planner, governor, poet, painter and musician :-) everything but a fighter (Lorgar could take him,not to mention Kor Phaeron)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 14:59:00
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/10/24 17:10:55
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine
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IronFrog wrote:Rob was a strategic genius second only to the emperor himself so if he had been there he would have command of the loyalist forces during the battle, Dorn would have been charged with fortifying the planet. It doesnt matter how well you prepare for a battle if you make all the wrong moves in it and everyone knows Guilliman was a better strategist then any of the other primarchs
Horus, the Lion, and possibly Dorn Perturabo and Alpharius were all better strategists than Guilliman. Having a battle plan set in stone like Guilliman had and then throwing a hissy fit when someone doesn't listen to what you tell them to do is not good strategy.
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Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it. |
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2012/10/24 18:04:49
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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 Durza wrote:IronFrog wrote:Rob was a strategic genius second only to the emperor himself so if he had been there he would have command of the loyalist forces during the battle, Dorn would have been charged with fortifying the planet. It doesnt matter how well you prepare for a battle if you make all the wrong moves in it and everyone knows Guilliman was a better strategist then any of the other primarchs
Horus, the Lion, and possibly Dorn Perturabo and Alpharius were all better strategists than Guilliman. Having a battle plan set in stone like Guilliman had and then throwing a hissy fit when someone doesn't listen to what you tell them to do is not good strategy.
Yeah, completely agree except he is a good strategist (being at a wrong side of galaxy when Terra was attacked) and btw look at "IF" retribution fleet" ; they went from certain victory to full retreat, lost 2/3 of the fleet just to protect the Emp so I don't belive in that Rob's ship wouldn't start thingy....
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ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/10/24 18:46:04
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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 KorPhaeron77 wrote:The Dark Eldar may be twisted creatures but they sate their lusts within the confines of Commoragh and sap any soul essence for themselves, Slaanesh cannot touch them in the Webway.
The very reason why the Dark Eldar sap soul essences for themselves is because all of them are constantly being slowly drained by Slaanesh, whether in the Webway or the materium.
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2012/10/24 23:30:51
Subject: If the Horus Heresy had ended differently
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Durza wrote:IronFrog wrote:Rob was a strategic genius second only to the emperor himself so if he had been there he would have command of the loyalist forces during the battle, Dorn would have been charged with fortifying the planet. It doesnt matter how well you prepare for a battle if you make all the wrong moves in it and everyone knows Guilliman was a better strategist then any of the other primarchs
Horus, the Lion, and possibly Dorn Perturabo and Alpharius were all better strategists than Guilliman. Having a battle plan set in stone like Guilliman had and then throwing a hissy fit when someone doesn't listen to what you tell them to do is not good strategy.
And the fact that the Codex Astartes has served the Adeptus Astartes well for over ten thousand years means absolutely nothing to you? As a strategist and tactician, only Horus and Lion rivaled/surpassed Guilliman. If Guilliman or Lion commanded the Terran defense instead of a certain blockhead, I'm sure the Emperor wouldn't have been forced to confront Horus.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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Fluff for the Fluff God! 