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Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Frazzled wrote:

I am objecting. I don't recognize their right to exist.


And I believe you have no right to hold ignorant opinions, yet here we are.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Ahtman wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
I don't recognize their right to exist.


Which is meaningless and ineffective. Way to go?


And your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 dogma wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

I am objecting. I don't recognize their right to exist.


And I believe you have no right to hold ignorant opinions, yet here we are.


And here we are. So same time next thread?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/22 17:22:18


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 dogma wrote:
Especially since any assessment which calls into question the claims of the NAACP et al will hopefully require them to moderate their rhetoric.

Eternal optimist, eh?
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Seaward wrote:

Eternal optimist, eh?


Sort of, more like I can feed argument to the other UCC pastors when they have to deal with Wright.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre





Richmond, VA

How about we get the UN to monitor this thread?

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Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.

 Peregrine wrote:
SCREEE I'M A SEAGULL SCREE SCREEEE!!!!!
 
   
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USA

 juraigamer wrote:
How about we get the UN to monitor this thread?


So now you want the UN to take over the thread? Communist!

   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 LordofHats wrote:
 juraigamer wrote:
How about we get the UN to monitor this thread?


So now you want the UN to take over the thread? Communist!


juraigamer is history's greatest monster.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ahtman wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 juraigamer wrote:
How about we get the UN to monitor this thread?


So now you want the UN to take over the thread? Communist!


juraigamer is history's greatest monster.


You spelled "Obama" wrong.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Could somebody help me out here, because I'm really confused.

A few weeks ago, Chavez was elected, and international monitors said that the elections were some of the fairest and well organised they had ever seen anywhere. Ever.

But now, the US elections are being attacked due to a possibility of voter intimidation and/or dodgy practices.

For years I beleived that America was good, and Chavez was bad. Are you seriously suggesting that US media might be wrong!! Please, god, nooooo!!!!


Last time I checked Chavez hadn't tried to instigate a coup in the US.
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Ignoring all the 'yay my team, boo your team' stuff that fills every part of US politics these days, it's pretty hard to make a case that elections are in a good shape there, by modern standards. Inconsistent rules between states, and even between counties, have led to vast differences in how difficult it is to vote, and that's tied quite directly to an area's socio-economic status.

That said, a UN monitoring effort would be unlikely to achieve much. Ultimately all they can do is tell you the problems you're having, and we already know all that (UN monitoring groups are more important in countries with less media coverage than yours). What you need is a body empowered to actually reform the electoral process, to make sure people have, as much as possible, just as easy a time of voting, no matter how rich or poor they are.



 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I have an issue with this on the grounds that U.N. isn't fit to monitor an empty paper bag much less a nation's electoral process.


Your issue is baseless nonsense.

Thing is, the UN is a large and varied organisation. The General Assembly is in fact very different from the WHO, or the ICJ, and each needs to be addressed in terms. Throwing a blanket over the whole thing and declaring it useless is just lazy.

The groups formed to monitor various elections have been thought of very well, historically, whether they concluded the elections were fair, or were mostly fair but needed some reform, or if the election was not fairly conducted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote:
A neutral third party that happens to consist of several countries that hate the U.S.


No, you're thinking of the General Assembly, which votes on various issues, but doesn't actually control every facet of UN operations.

This is similar to you complaining that your speeding ticket is unfair, because you're pretty sure the mayor doesn't like you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
What's the problem with this?

I guess what we don't know is what do you mean by "let UN monitor the election".

If it's... having an UN election observer going to same place as the other election observers... that's fine.

If it's... having the UN run/manage the election... then, I'd have a problem with that.


It's the former. That's what an observer group is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/23 05:13:36


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






 sebster wrote:
Ignoring all the 'yay my team, boo your team' stuff that fills every part of US politics these days, it's pretty hard to make a case that elections are in a good shape there, by modern standards. Inconsistent rules between states, and even between counties, have led to vast differences in how difficult it is to vote, and that's tied quite directly to an area's socio-economic status


Yeah, but to be fair, all of the limitation is on voting for a third party, there is really no issue when it comes to voting for one of the two major parties. Call that an issue if you will - I do - but it is hardly something that some tight pants wearing hand wringing sex for oil loving UN plutocrat should get 'up in arms' about. And by that I mean pass a resolution to form a committee to deal with their petty grievance. Calling the UN to deal with election issues in the US is like calling a bunch of rapists to chair a summit on election issues. Because the UN is a morally bankrupt organization full of rapists, and rape enablers, who should never ever be given the moral high ground.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Yeah, but to be fair, all of the limitation is on voting for a third party, there is really no issue when it comes to voting for one of the two major parties.

That's not at all true. You should do some reading into issues of access, limited numbers of machines and long lines, particularly in poorer districts. When distribution and logistics issues create a situation where folks in some areas have to wait in line for hours to vote, and people in others can breeze in and out in a few minutes, that's an issue.


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 Mannahnin wrote:
Yeah, but to be fair, all of the limitation is on voting for a third party, there is really no issue when it comes to voting for one of the two major parties.

That's not at all true. You should do some reading into issues of access, limited numbers of machines and long lines, particularly in poorer districts. When distribution and logistics issues create a situation where folks in some areas have to wait in line for hours to vote, and people in others can breeze in and out in a few minutes, that's an issue.



Yeah, unless they have to stage a revolution, throw some tea into a harbor or two, I don't particularly care. If you give a rats ass about the democratic process, waiting in line for a few hours isn't a big deal. gak, when I was in Kuwait in '03 we waited in line for six hours for a few cans of refrigerated ginger ale. Or three and a half hours for some pre melted cheese and some bread to put it on... basically ... if all you have to do is sit in line to exercise your ultimate democratic power, cry me a fething river if it's inconvenient.
   
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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

If you live paycheck to paycheck, have kids to support and have to take unpaid time off to vote, especially if you're reliant on public transportation to get to and from the polls (not having a car), I will cry you a river (or rather, feel reasonable and justified human sympathy and concern) for how difficult it is to go vote.

Your complaints about your experience in Kuwait are misplaced and not relevant.

In the last few elections there have been legitimate problems with access to/ability to easily vote, at least in some places and some times, for poorer voters and voters in certain districts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 05:59:34


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 Mannahnin wrote:
If you work paycheck to paycheck, have kids to support and have to take unpaid time off to vote, especially if you're reliant on public transportation to get to and from the polls (not having a car), I will cry you a river (or rather, feel reasonable and justified human sympathy and concern) for how difficult it is to go vote.

Your complaints about your experience in Kuwait are misplaced and not relevant.


You picked the wrong no car owning having to take leave to go vote mother f'er to talk down to here, hombre.




...... Apparently since all those other poor donkey-caves aren't white like me, their struggles are just so much worse eh? I don't ride the bus, cause I'm white, huh? My having to stand in line for basic necessities don't matter, cause I volunteered for that gak (ie, was lied to by a champ) right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 06:07:37


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

I'm not trying to talk down to you. If you want to hit the thread with stuff like "all of the limitation is on voting for a third party, there is really no issue when it comes to voting for one of the two major parties.", you should expect to be called on it. I completely sympathize with the issues of third parties getting decent access and representation, but that doesn't mean other issues don't exist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 06:05:35


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Made in us
Posts with Authority






 Mannahnin wrote:
I'm not trying to talk down to you. If you want to hit the thread with stuff like "all of the limitation is on voting for a third party, there is really no issue when it comes to voting for one of the two major parties.", you should expect to be called on it. I completely sympathize with the issues of third parties getting decent access and representation, but that doesn't mean other issues don't exist.


Dude, 98% of the issues are resolved if you vote democrat or republican. The cat is on the ballot. No one with any power is actively trying to stop you from voting - at least without a fair counterweight. If waiting in line for a few hours every four years is where you tap out, you have bailed on your rights. I know life sucks for a lot of people. I am there, in the fething trenches. If I want to vote, I will goddamnded well do it, instead of whining that my rights are being abridged because my boss is a dick cheese burger. Many, many people have died so we can have our stupid traditions. I went through a fair amount of bs for that same reason. If your stupid boss isn't accommodating, take some leave. If you can't do that, bring a federal suit. There. Are. Laws. To. Help. You.
   
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

I'm fine. I'm concerned about other people.

If you're not; okay, message received loud and clear.

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 Mannahnin wrote:
I'm fine. I'm concerned about other people.

If you're not; okay, message received loud and clear.


That is some porous moral high ground you are attempting to build there.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Alternatively we could make election day a federal holiday, then there are at least fewer excuses.

 Bromsy wrote:
gak, when I was in Kuwait in '03 we waited in line for six hours for a few cans of refrigerated ginger ale. Or three and a half hours for some pre melted cheese and some bread to put it on...


Which you were essentially being paid to do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/23 06:53:51


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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 dogma wrote:
Alternatively we could make election day a federal holiday, then there are at least fewer excuses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bromsy wrote:
gak, when I was in Kuwait in '03 we waited in line for six hours for a few cans of refrigerated ginger ale. Or three and a half hours for some pre melted cheese and some bread to put it on...


Which you were essentially being paid to do.


That just meanst that many people will just loose an entire day of pay instead a couple of hours worth.
   
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

He was being paid, of course. But I guess he didn't know it would be hard, and we should feel sorry for him.

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Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 Mannahnin wrote:
If you live paycheck to paycheck, have kids to support and have to take unpaid time off to vote, especially if you're reliant on public transportation to get to and from the polls (not having a car), I will cry you a river (or rather, feel reasonable and justified human sympathy and concern) for how difficult it is to go vote.
.


I hear tell that mail in ballots are a thing these days.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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United States

 d-usa wrote:

That just meanst that many people will just loose an entire day of pay instead a couple of hours worth.


Good point, I forgot that private companies don't need to respect federal holidays.

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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Bromsy wrote:
Yeah, but to be fair, all of the limitation is on voting for a third party, there is really no issue when it comes to voting for one of the two major parties.


Issues in US elections have little to do with voting for the major parties, and everything to do with the difficulty some people have in casting their vote compared to others. And with the wildly differing levels of oversight from state to state.

Call that an issue if you will - I do - but it is hardly something that some tight pants wearing hand wringing sex for oil loving UN plutocrat should get 'up in arms' about. And by that I mean pass a resolution to form a committee to deal with their petty grievance. Calling the UN to deal with election issues in the US is like calling a bunch of rapists to chair a summit on election issues. Because the UN is a morally bankrupt organization full of rapists, and rape enablers, who should never ever be given the moral high ground.


You do understand that the General Assembly isn't the UN, don't you? That the organisation itself is actually a series of groups that deal with a variety of issues, like the WHO, and the Criminal Courts, and so on?

And as such, saying "Iran is in the General Assembly UN and they're bad therefore the UN is bad" is nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bromsy wrote:
Yeah, unless they have to stage a revolution, throw some tea into a harbor or two, I don't particularly care. If you give a rats ass about the democratic process, waiting in line for a few hours isn't a big deal. gak, when I was in Kuwait in '03 we waited in line for six hours for a few cans of refrigerated ginger ale. Or three and a half hours for some pre melted cheese and some bread to put it on... basically ... if all you have to do is sit in line to exercise your ultimate democratic power, cry me a fething river if it's inconvenient.


If everyone waits two hours to cast their vote, and that's just how it is, then that's just how it is. But richer districts fund their elections and have waiting periods of a few minutes, while poorer districts have little funding for their elections and waiting times can be in excess of two hours, then the situation isn't fair.

"Elections should be fair" is not exactly a contraversial statement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 07:15:56


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
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United States

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

I hear tell that mail in ballots are a thing these days.


Well, that really depends. Some states don't allow absentee ballots at all, other only allow them with an excuse (variously defined), and still others don't care.

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 dogma wrote:
Alternatively we could make election day a federal holiday, then there are at least fewer excuses.


Or just change elections to a Saturday.

I mean, that'd need a constitutional change so it will never happen, but it'd solve a lot of problems really quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bromsy wrote:
Dude, 98% of the issues are resolved if you vote democrat or republican. The cat is on the ballot. No one with any power is actively trying to stop you from voting - at least without a fair counterweight.


This is the point. One political party looking for advantage by fething with the rules, opposed by another political party looking for advantage by fething with the rules doesn't produce a fair system.

It produces a system where one side proposes a crackdown on voter registration entirely aimed at the poor people they know will be voting for the other party, while the other side resists any such reform knowing it might stop some people who would vote for their side.

The result is a mess, that needs to have an overall reform from an independant body.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 07:21:21


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Kinda mean. Redacted.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/10/23 13:49:30


 
   
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SE Michigan

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
 Mannahnin wrote:
If you live paycheck to paycheck, have kids to support and have to take unpaid time off to vote, especially if you're reliant on public transportation to get to and from the polls (not having a car), I will cry you a river (or rather, feel reasonable and justified human sympathy and concern) for how difficult it is to go vote.
.


I hear tell that mail in ballots are a thing these days.


Only a few states actually allow them, I tried to get a hold of them before I was told that they aren't allowed in Michigan

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Manchester, NH

 Bromsy wrote:
 Mannahnin wrote:
He was being paid, of course. But I guess he didn't know it would be hard, and we should feel sorry for him.
Are you fething kidding me?

You feel totally justified in bitching about how hard it is for the disadvantaged minorities to do the things they should be proud and fething forthright to do, and you think I am complaining about the gak that I had to suffer through that I signed up to do?

You were never in the military were you? That wasn't me bitching, that was me pointing out that gak sucks all around.

Things do suck in lots of places and lots of ways. That doesn't mean we should act like that's an unalterable condition, or that injustices you've suffered mean that you should have no sympathy for injustices other people suffer. Maybe I'm reading you wrong and doing you an injustice. Or maybe I'm responding to what you choose to express, and you're not communicating what you mean to.


 Bromsy wrote:
Holy fething gak, Mannahnin. I have been on this forum for years, and I have never, ever been pissed off until now. fething talk down to me some more. I goddamned live off that gak. Spout some more pedantic, patriarchal bs. At least Sebster and Dogma responded like human beings and not complete donkey-caves.
I apologize, Just because I perceive you to be responding like a jerk, doesn't justify responding in kind.

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A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
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