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So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma. But i want to know what Angorn inherited? was it the Emperors fury or was his inheritance taken away buy his implants he received as a child turning him into the psycho that he was. How ever his legion was notable for there fury before Angorn joined them so maybe he was abit of a psycho to start with and the implants amplified this.

My second question is if Angorn was the emperors Fury why did the Emperor create Angorn at all? Its said that Russ was to be the emperors executioner, Horus was to lead the other primarchs, Roboute was to build empires and so on. But what possible role would Angorn have filled in the emperors supreme plan when he first devised it.

I think that Angron was, ironically, the Emperor's warhound. He wasn't just sent into battle or held the same position as Russ, but rather, he was unleashed as a fear tactic only someone like himself could be.

I'd tend to think that Angron is the Emperor's passion, and a dark reflection of Sanguinus. Angron also differed from Russ in that had the Emperor told the Wolves to stop, they'd stop. The World Eaters would just keep killing until there was nothing left by broken chainaxe teeth, ashes, and silence.

Angron and Sanguinius seem to be very similar, yet opposites. Almost like a ying and yang. Angron is known as the Red Angel, Sanguinius simply as the Angel. Angron wears his emotion (anger) on his sleeve and seethes with violence. Sanguinius' anger is subdued with a veneer of civilized behavior and appreciation for art and beauty, however the same anger is so rooted in the BA that it manifests itself as the red thirst and black rage. I forget which novel in HH but dorm is mulling over Angron and believes that only horus or Sanguinius could best Angron in combat.

burnaboy wrote:
So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma. But i want to know what Angorn inherited? was it the Emperors fury or was his inheritance taken away buy his implants he received as a child turning him into the psycho that he was. How ever his legion was notable for there fury before Angorn joined them so maybe he was abit of a psycho to start with and the implants amplified this.

My second question is if Angorn was the emperors Fury why did the Emperor create Angorn at all? Its said that Russ was to be the emperors executioner, Horus was to lead the other primarchs, Roboute was to build empires and so on. But what possible role would Angorn have filled in the emperors supreme plan when he first devised it.

Both questions have the same answer. And that is that Angron lost his legacy when the Butcher's Nails were installed.

Angron, might have been as smart as Magnus, chrismatic as Horus or as tactical as the Lion; but that was all lost to his anger. So before you can start applying what aspect of the Emperor Anrgon was. You have consider what effect the Butcher's Nails would have on a sane mind. Look at Kharn before the Nails, after the Nails and Kharn in modern 40k. And you will see that who he was is gone and only Rage is left. The same thing happened to Angron except that his primarch mind was able to maintain a little more control.

Agron seems to be the Emperor's Wrath.

Keep in mind that Angron only became the way he is because of his implants, so it's unlikely that he ever fulfilled any intended role.

EDIT: Actually, Stonerhino already said this better than I could. The only thing I disagree with is that the Butcher's Nails may have actually affected Angron more than a normal man; it's said several times that they were not designed to work with a Primarch's brain chemistry.

So maybe a better question to ask is why did the emperor allow Angron to take control of his legion seeing as he was damaged goods by the time the big E found him?

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
So maybe a better question to ask is why did the emperor allow Angron to take control of his legion seeing as he was damaged goods by the time the big E found him?

Because Angron is his son and showed ability as a natural leader. It's not like he threw away Kurz, who was similarly "broken".

Angron might have turned out fine (If a bit insane) if the Big E had just teleported down there and helped him with his rebellion.

Your my son, I love you, I don't care if your partially lobotomized and have implants that make you a crazed killer! Next time on Dr. Phil.

In the Dornian heresy the Emp helps him instead of primarchnaping him, and it makes a world of difference. a pretty good read btw

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
So maybe a better question to ask is why did the emperor allow Angron to take control of his legion seeing as he was damaged goods by the time the big E found him?

Possibility 1.

He had already lost two of his children and despite Angrons flaws, was not going to lose another. Angron despite of his totality and attitude towards the Emperor was loyal.

Possibility 2.

The Emperor knew that he would become the Prince of Blood and thought that he could delay the inevitable by having him at his side.

If he would have left Angron on Dulan to die with his sisters and brothers, Khorne would have had a champion far sooner and the Emperor another lost son.

Angron could be any part of the Emperors character, it could be his pride, his honour, his rage, his anger obviously. The problem is that with his upbringing as a slave and the Butchers Nails, his identity has been changed.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd tend to think that Angron is the Emperor's passion, and a dark reflection of Sanguinus. Angron also differed from Russ in that had the Emperor told the Wolves to stop, they'd stop. The World Eaters would just keep killing until there was nothing left by broken chainaxe teeth, ashes, and silence.

I like this answer, I too think he was the manifest of the emperors passion, but was sadly a bit too damaged for it to truly shine through as it probably could have without the butcher's nails.

Angron is easily my favourite primarch as there is so much potential boiling within the absolute rage, the Dornian Heresy as mentioned before shows a really interesting version of Angron.

Most literally, he inherited a Black Sword directly from the Emperor (Sigismund's was a copy of this). Although you won't find many people that remember Angron was a sword-man, and not an axe-man these days.

He apparently used it in The Emperor's Gift, although it was perverted by Chaos.

I think that its worth considering that angron was created as the aggressive bad guy to balance out the aggressive good guy, and the aspect of the emperor thing was just an afterthought.

Having said that, if you keep the comparison to Russ going, there are clear differences between the two...Clearly from the thousand sons/space wolf heresy books, Russ is the executioner, but he doesnt relish in it - he himself (i think), clearly states he is sentto do these horrid things basically only because hes the only one who isnt afraid to get his hands dirty when commanded to get a job done.

i always think the executioner mantle these books have given him is incorrect - he literally is the emperors pet dog rather than his executioner.
Hes loyal, dutiful behind the savage facade, and will do anything hes commanded however distasteful it would seem.

so in my opinion russ typifies the emperors loyalty, and "ill do it because it must be done and noone else will do it" attitude - russ is the side of the emperor that delivered the wolves to do what they did to one of the unknown legions. it saddened him greatly and brought a tear to his eye, but he knew it must be done.

Angron on the other hand is the emperors brutality. At the end of the day, it takes a man with a VERY vicious streak to conquer earth and the entire galaxy, slaughtering millions in the brutal, unforgiving, savage and frankly evil way he tried.
"side with me or i will slaughter your entire world". you have 10 minutes to decide.
It takes a special kind of psychopath to head up such a genocidal crusade <cough hitler cough>.

therefore again, i think angron represents the emperors inner aggression/brutality/evilness/psychopathy

edit: highlighted inner psycho, as has been mentioned with a different upbringing it may have been different. but regardless he shared with his father that inner potential. his past just amplified it. like all reall life nutters and serial killers - at the end of the day, its in them, and all they are waiting for is a trigger

 Hobowan wrote:

..Clearly from the thousand sons/space wolf heresy books, Russ is the executioner, but he doesnt relish in it - he himself (i think), clearly states he is sentto do these horrid things basically only because hes the only one who isnt afraid to get his hands dirty when commanded to get a job done.

Um. No.

Going by the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves heresy books, one of the characters in these books (not even a Space Marines) voices his thoughts on the matter, arguing that Space Wolves might be a purposeful creation of the Emperor to deal with other upstart Space Marines.

Clearly though, it was not written in the voice of the omniscient narrator, nor the voice of an influential character "in the know", nor confirmed anywhere else. So I would exactly call it a fact. Just a neat theory.

 Zweischneid wrote:


Um. No.

Going by the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves heresy books, one of the characters in these books (not even a Space Marines) voices his thoughts on the matter, arguing that Space Wolves might be a purposeful creation of the Emperor to deal with other upstart Space Marines.

Clearly though, it was not written in the voice of the omniscient narrator, nor the voice of an influential character "in the know", nor confirmed anywhere else. So I would exactly call it a fact. Just a neat theory.

apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )

it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.

The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!

 Stonerhino wrote:

Angron, might have been as smart as Magnus, chrismatic as Horus or as tactical as the Lion; but that was all lost to his anger. So before you can start applying what aspect of the Emperor Anrgon was. You have consider what effect the Butcher's Nails would have on a sane mind. Look at Kharn before the Nails, after the Nails and Kharn in modern 40k. And you will see that who he was is gone and only Rage is left. The same thing happened to Angron except that his primarch mind was able to maintain a little more control.

This is a good answer.

The butcher's nails erased the part of Angron that he was supposed to represent, which makes his story that much more tragic.

The man was a lunitic plain and simple even before the butchers nails who highten agression, the only tragidy I feel is for his victims. He murdered at least 7 loyal Astartes just for wanting to say...um excuse me could you take command of the legion please, pycho it not the word.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Most literally, he inherited a Black Sword directly from the Emperor (Sigismund's was a copy of this). Although you won't find many people that remember Angron was a sword-man, and not an axe-man these days.

He's both. As an expert gladiator, I'd expect as much.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
The man was a lunitic plain and simple even before the butchers nails who highten agression, the only tragidy I feel is for his victims. He murdered at least 7 loyal Astartes just for wanting to say...um excuse me could you take command of the legion please, pycho it not the word.

And your evidence for this is...?

Leaving his gladiatorial buddies behind to die was a bad move. Big E could have just teleported down with some Custodes and kicked ass with his new Son.

Didn't Angron murder eldar assassins when he was still a child, i.e. before the butchers nails? He was probably already fairly aggressive/brutal when he came to. I'd imagine Angron would have been Russ's executioner if it need to be done.

Who fights the Daemon Prince Angron on Terra?

 Medium of Death wrote:
Didn't Angron murder eldar assassins when he was still a child, i.e. before the butchers nails? He was probably already fairly aggressive/brutal when he came to.

I wasn't aware that self-defense counts as aggressive and brutal. The Eldar tried to assassinate him, he killed them.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Who fights the Daemon Prince Angron on Terra?

He wasn't a Daemon Prince yet.

I always thought Angron was the Emperor focus, drive, and dedication to purpose.

 Hobowan wrote:

so in my opinion russ typifies the emperors loyalty, and "ill do it because it must be done and noone else will do it" attitude - russ is the side of the emperor that delivered the wolves to do what they did to one of the unknown legions. it saddened him greatly and brought a tear to his eye, but he knew it must be done.

Follow the right order to bitter end, do the same to oppose wrong one, do something that all others are afraid|ashamed|fear to do but is necessary...to me SWs are Resolution.

And Angron...he's wrath, primordial, unbound and allconsuming.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
The man was a lunitic plain and simple even before the butchers nails who highten agression, the only tragidy I feel is for his victims. He murdered at least 7 loyal Astartes just for wanting to say...um excuse me could you take command of the legion please, pycho it not the word.

Note that this was after the Emperor left everyone that Angron had ever considered to be friend or family to die instead of helping them, which he almost certainly could have. I think it'd be fair to be a bit unhinged after that. And why would he want to serve the man who had shown withing minutes of them first meeting to have no honour as far as Angron was concerned (he refused to help for an unspecified reason, pretended to accept Angron's decision to fight to the death with his friends and then teleported him onto his ship anyway)?

 Hobowan wrote:

apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )

it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.

The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!

Not saying it doesn't fit.

But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).


If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).


It's a neat theory, as said, because it COULD be true. But, having only one "biased" source (e.g. an "in-character" statement by a non-Space Marine character aligned with the Thousand Sons) is far from solid evidence that (B) is actually the case.

Indeed, it is just as plausible that the statement in question (the Emperor created the Wolves to execute other SM Legions) voiced at this point in time by a Thousand Sons advisor was a symptom of (or a way the author wanted to show) the Thousand Sons disenchantment with the Emperor and their slow turning away from the Imperium: e.g. paranoid theories are thrown around to justify and/or motivate their course of action and secession.

 Zweischneid wrote:


Not saying it doesn't fit.

But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).


If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).

i think we are more in agreement than we think - i dont think for a second that russ was created to execute other legions or other baddies. my thought in my first post was:

 Hobowan wrote:

"i always think the executioner mantle these books have given him is incorrect - he literally is the emperors pet dog rather than his executioner.
Hes loyal, dutiful behind the savage facade, and will do anything hes commanded however distasteful it would seem.

so in my opinion russ typifies the emperors loyalty, and "ill do it because it must be done and noone else will do it" attitude - russ is the side of the emperor that delivered the wolves to do what they did to one of the unknown legions. it saddened him greatly and brought a tear to his eye, but he knew it must be done."

i do believe that russ was literally a loyal dog to the emperor and showed all his doggy traits! - loyaltly, blind obedience, relentlessness and all of that jazz - matches the legion name and demographic perfectly.

Russ could equally have been made to show the emperors awesomeness.

either way works!

 ENOZONE wrote:
he was unleashed as a fear tactic only someone like himself could be

Dang, coolest answer on the first reply!

But a couple of the Legions have that reputation, where armies just surrender upon hearing so-and-so is coming.

As for what aspect of the Emperor Angron represents -- not to be too obvious but ... I think it's anger, guys. Hear me out: we almost never get to see the Emperor angry so we have this idea that he's always cool and collected. But I'd be angry if I were the Emperor. Think of the massive responsibility he has. Think of how angry it would make you to have to conquer humanity because you're trying to save it (yes, I'm making some assumptions there). At the Emperor's level, most beings are the equivalent of idiot toddlers. It has to be infuriating to deal with them in trying to run an interstellar Imperium. And of course the main question is "WHY ME?" or, taking a cue from Deus Ex, "I didn't ask for this." This is the point of Angron's story -- his goals were basically petty and he refused to give them up when the Emperor showed up. So the Emperor forced him to do it: the Emperor perfected him by giving him something that would always piss him off -- the Emperor turned the gladiator rebel back into a slave. Like the Emperor himself, Angron would be shackled to the service of humanity.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Hobowan wrote:

apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )

it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.

The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!

Not saying it doesn't fit.

But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).


If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).


It's a neat theory, as said, because it COULD be true. But, having only one "biased" source (e.g. an "in-character" statement by a non-Space Marine character aligned with the Thousand Sons) is far from solid evidence that (B) is actually the case.

Indeed, it is just as plausible that the statement in question (the Emperor created the Wolves to execute other SM Legions) voiced at this point in time by a Thousand Sons advisor was a symptom of (or a way the author wanted to show) the Thousand Sons disenchantment with the Emperor and their slow turning away from the Imperium: e.g. paranoid theories are thrown around to justify and/or motivate their course of action and secession.

The "Biased" character is an IG (Imperial Army) commander who faught with Blood Angels, Death Guard, White Scars and Space Wolves. Says everyone has heard rumors of "Monster" Legions and the Space Wolves are the worst of all of them. He then voices the question that (much like yourself) as to why the Space Wolves were made how they are. And he has basically the same answers you have. A: The Emperor just made them or B: The Emperor sees threats that noone else sees.

The problem is that Dan Abnett says in an interview that the Space Wolves are how they are because they are ment to kill other Legions. Link to Video. A statement backed up In Battle of Fang when the senior Wolf Priest take aside a human and tells him as much and in Fear to Tread when Redknife adresses his squad. So it is not something that just happens in Prospero Burns.

Back on topic:
How do we know that Angron was not ment to be the Emperor's 'Calm'. Fact is we don't know. Because all we have a demigod with a broken mind to base our theroies on.

However I like to believe that Angron represents the Emperor's Determiniation. His mind is just broken and he is unable to control his force of will. Which makes Angron a sad story because what should have been a gift from the Emperor has become his prison. In that he is unable to pick his goals. There is only the rage and his determination constantly pushing him to that end. Like a weapon he can only ever be pointed at the enemy and told to attack. Never being able to rise above it. Even as a Deamon Prince he is still just a slave killing for the amuzement of his master.