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So now that the Emperor has likely ascended to become the God-Emperor in the warp with the trillions of screaming souls professing his name in the real realms, what of the others who carry religious followings? IE, Leman Russ, Ruboute Guilleman, Sanguinius, Sebastian Thor? They are all hailed as saviors to the Imperium and have massive followings of their own. After nearly 10,000 years of worship ,~5k for Sebastian, would they have enough pyschic potential to become demi-gods or outright gods themselves? Is there a new pantheon of gods arising from the martyrs of the Imperium, with enough strength to fight the four Gods of Chaos and lead the Imperium to conquer the galaxy?

Just a thought.

This is an interesting topic, but one that relies heavily on personal interpretation and preferences.

For example, I do not believe that any such thing as divinity or godhood exists in the setting. Everything we see is just Warp Magiks, be it the Chaos "Gods" or the Emperor's doing. The Emperor was already mighty without the worship of the people - in fact, he never wanted to be worshipped in the first place, and his Space Marines continue to this day to regard him as a great man, but still a normal human being. Worship of the Emperor only really cropped up bigtime after he died, with lots of people all over the galaxy suddenly claiming to have seen visions. Now, are those visions the Emperor's psychic touch, did the Emperor truly ascend to become the one true god of the entire setting, or were they just imagining things? Nobody knows for sure.

I do not think there is a connection between religious worship and psychic potential, though. In fact, the Ecclesiarchy would never condone a "witch" to be named and worshipped as a Saint in the first place - although it is certainly interesting how some very few people such as Saint Sebastian or Saint Joachim have apparently shown the ability to conjure or calm warp storms as they wish. Then again, is that really the truth, or was it the Emperor's intervention? Or the Inquisition secretly working in the background with arcane technology? Or perhaps even the Ruinous Powers playing their great game?

 Lynata wrote:
For example, I do not believe that any such thing as divinity or godhood exists in the setting. Everything we see is just Warp Magiks, be it the Chaos "Gods" or the Emperor's doing.

C'tan.

Anyway, the Emperor's psychic presence in the Warp was powerful enough to combat the Chaos Gods pre-heresy, he has always been more or less "godly".

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
For example, I do not believe that any such thing as divinity or godhood exists in the setting. Everything we see is just Warp Magiks, be it the Chaos "Gods" or the Emperor's doing.

C'tan.

Anyway, the Emperor's psychic presence in the Warp was powerful enough to combat the Chaos Gods pre-heresy, he has always been more or less "godly".

Well C'tan were basically collections of stardust formed after the Big Bang...

Every "divine" thing in 40k has a "scientific" explanation. However the factor remains: does this make them any less divine. The Chaos Gods are Gods in every sense except we know where they came from (though nobody in the setting does).

Well I'm banking on the idea that the Chaos Gods were known by the Emperor to be created by thoughts and emotions from mankind. When focused, they manifested into the four great powers, which is exactly why the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped - he didn't want to make a 5th Chaos God. Low and behold, posthumously he very well may be the 5th - and his greatest followers may make up lesser deities as well. So, what say you?

 ENOZONE wrote:
Well I'm banking on the idea that the Chaos Gods were known by the Emperor to be created by thoughts and emotions from mankind. When focused, they manifested into the four great powers, which is exactly why the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped - he didn't want to make a 5th Chaos God. Low and behold, posthumously he very well may be the 5th - and his greatest followers may make up lesser deities as well. So, what say you?

If he does, he'll be the God of Order, the anti-Chaos god. The Dark Gods already hated him before he ascended to the Golden Throne, and even when mortally wounded he still flayed a primarch infused with immense power form all 4 Chaos Gods. If he went fully into the warp, he would castrate the chaos gods in his sleep, no challenge.

Perhaps. Living saints are also infused by his power, but they cannot yet mortally harm the 4 great powers so it seems that there is somewhat of an even playing field.

My question remains largely unanswered though, are the other great martyrs of the Imperium becoming Gods empowered by the Imperium's worship towards them - such as how the God-Emperor seems to be manifesting, or is the Emperor the one true God of humanity?

ENOZONE wrote:Well I'm banking on the idea that the Chaos Gods were known by the Emperor to be created by thoughts and emotions from mankind. When focused, they manifested into the four great powers, which is exactly why the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped - he didn't want to make a 5th Chaos God.

Ah, the supposed rationale between this "Imperial Truth" propagated by some novels?
Religion is not equal to emotion, though the two are connected. And whilst you can eliminate religion, you cannot eliminate emotion (unless you do it Equilibrium-style), so either the Emperor made a mistake or this whole theory does not hold up to scrutiny. Furthermore: even if worship would create gods, then the people's adoration of the Emperor would have simply resulted in another Emperor being born in the Warp, existing simultaneously with the real one. That's how it works. Slaanesh is not some Eldar pimp king/queen, he/she is a collective gestalt of the Eldar's emotions from that time, and I assume it would work similarly for Imperial worshipers.

The Emperor is as unaffected by the worship of uncounted millions now as he has been by the lack of it during the Great Crusade. I won't dispute the possibility that there may be a connection between Him and His servants - the Ecclesiarchy teaches that the Emperor often acts through His chosen individuals, and one does not need to consider divinity to be a source for such powers when psychic powers are a far more convenient explanation - but at the same time I would not commit to this option. It would explain some supposeldy non-psychic peoples' ability to influence a psychic medium, however.

ENOZONE wrote:Perhaps. Living saints are also infused by his power [...]

Or at least so we are led to assume. There are multiple possible explanations, however. To me it seems much more likely that it is, in fact, the Living Saints that are the product of Imperial emotions during times of exceptional need, rather than a 2nd Emperor - simply because we never see that 2nd Emperor (or in generall all that worship having any effect on the Emperor's role and condition on Terra), and the Living Saints are "the next best thing". They are, in essence, "Mini-Slaaneshes", just Daemons of Order, if you will. Conjured by the collective terror, despair and hope of the Imperial citizenry, brought forth from the Immaterium and possessing one of the faithful close to the focal point of the crisis (and thus right in the midst of the turmoil of emotions).

Two reasons why faith matters:

Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull throne.

Offerings are made frequently to the Chaos Gods, in fact they're required to bring about demons, pacts, and demonic lords, therefore, the Chaos Gods require worship, not just emotion, to give them direction.

Your argument for living saints basically confirms the theory of a "God-Emperor and "lesser Gods" that apparently may or may not exist depending on the Imperial Truth, the difference between raw and structured emotion, and the difference between the Emperor and the God-Emperor. So, which is it? And what's the answer to the original question?

I heard that the God-Emperor and the Emperor are infact seperate entities, with the God Emperor actually always existing, but gaining Strengh by the worshiping of the imperium.

ENOZONE wrote:Offerings are made frequently to the Chaos Gods, in fact they're required to bring about demons, pacts, and demonic lords, therefore, the Chaos Gods require worship, not just emotion, to give them direction.

Not as per what the Chaos codices tell us. It really is just the emotion - in case of Khorne chiefly rage and bloodlust - that empowers the Ruinous Powers, but just like with the Ecclesiarchy, there exist a myriad of manmade rituals and traditions to worship them like gods. They are not necessary per se (and indeed are not practiced in every single incarnation of a Chaos cult!), they simply embody their nature and are the various worshipers' own way of expressing their adoration. The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

After all, what do you think existed first - the Chaos God inspiring worship - or aimless worship not directed at anyone or anything resulting in the creation of a new god? Given how very different the many local cults are, I would deem it highly improbable that they all just happened to "think-birth" the same deity. If it would truly work that way, we would have many, many more "gods" than currently exist.
On the other hand, this might actually fit to what we have read about the spirits within the Warp fighting each other and potentially even absorbing each other, gaining strength and power as they do. Still, such a theory would be incompatible with what the Eldar have experienced. They did not just start to worship an imaginary Slaanesh before he/she/it actually existed, they simply had a big party and on the next morning the Warp was pregnant.

ENOZONE wrote:Your argument for living saints basically confirms the theory of a "God-Emperor and "lesser Gods" that apparently may or may not exist depending on the Imperial Truth, the difference between raw and structured emotion, and the difference between the Emperor and the God-Emperor. So, which is it? And what's the answer to the original question?

Well, my theory cannot confirm or dismantle anything as it is only a theory in itself. Also, in no way does it depend on actual worship or some sort of practicioned rite. Just like with the creation of Slaanesh, all that is required is a certain kind of emotion hitting a threshold and triggering a reaction from the Warp.

See also the account of a Navigator's experience as he traverses the Immaterium in the 6E rulebook, how he writes about feelings and thoughts taking form and shape.

hotsauceman1 wrote:I heard that the God-Emperor and the Emperor are infact seperate entities, with the God Emperor actually always existing, but gaining Strengh by the worshiping of the imperium.

Yet it is the exact opposite that happens. The Astronomican is growing weaker by the day and entire sectors are lost to the Imperium because the Emperor's light cannot reach them anymore - all the while worship of the God-Emperor has continuously expanded, driven by the mighty Ecclesiarchy and its armies of Missionaries and Preachers bringing the Imperial Cult to ever more worlds.

You still haven't managed to answer the question Lynata. I mean this in a good natured way, but please, make a decision between your many angled argument - it's becoming difficult to sort through your text to understand past the contradictions. (Also, if it seems like a harsh criticism, it's probably because it is - made so because I should have gone to sleep an hour ago.)

For example: The absorption and "think births" of deities may not be mutually exclusive to the birth of Slaanesh or the other Chaos gods. After all, when the Eldar performed enough debauchery against themselves, they birthed Slaanesh, who promptly ate most of their pantheon of Gods. That's not to say the Eldar Gods were the same as Chaos, but obviously it shows that those that inhabit the immaterial are fully capable of consuming each other as the Demons of Chaos are as likely to prey upon each other as they are to prey upon hapless victims of the real world. Look no further for evidence between the rivalries between the Chaos Gods, as worship and emotional attachment grows, it wanes on their rival.

Second: Theories are either supported or not by bodies of evidence. So either it will be dismantled or upheld...

Third: You just contradicted yourself again about the non-existence of "Think-Births" and the Navigator's own words of how mere thoughts are made real in the vast regions of the warp, even if for a fleeting moment. If this is true, then it is completely possible that if enough people think and attach emotion to an idea - it would manifest itself as reality in the warp.

Going back to the living saints idea, the combination of the emotions of Fear, Hope, and anger would not serve to create a demi-god in a time of need because those emotions would only go to feed the Chaos Gods.

You need direction for that theory to truly work, a.k.a., a "think birth".

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that your theory is incomplete.

As you believe:

Only a vast quantity of Emotion creates beings of immense power in the warp.

That leaves many questions so let's amend that theory with part of mine:

Emotion creates directionless beings in the warp, and thought dictates what that being will do.

That explains why deliverance occurs to those who ask for it with prayer in a time of need - not simply hoping against the hope that might be killing them.

So, then it stands that Faith, or directional emotion in the form of prayers, rites, and rituals, is affecting things in the warp - and if the Emperor, and his greatest Martyrs /Saints are being worshiped by hundreds of millions of trillions of people across the galaxy, are they creating Gods of the Imperium?

 Lynata wrote:
The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

I should point out that this was explicitly shown in False Gods, the second Horus Heresy novel as written by Graham McNeil.

I forget the specifics, but I recall that for a sort of ritual sacrifice thing, a woman's heart was required, and it had to be cut out by a loved one so that the act of betrayal could draw power from Tzeentch, or something. Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh had similar stips (Okay, well Khorne might have just been RAWR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD but still).

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

I should point out that this was explicitly shown in False Gods, the second Horus Heresy novel as written by Graham McNeil.

I forget the specifics, but I recall that for a sort of ritual sacrifice thing, a woman's heart was required, and it had to be cut out by a loved one so that the act of betrayal could draw power from Tzeentch, or something. Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh had similar stips (Okay, well Khorne might have just been RAWR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD but still).

Yeah... wasn't there also a pig? I haven't read any other HH novels twice except Nemesis and Legion.

I truly can't remember and I don't have a physical copy of the book.

 Lynata wrote:

ENOZONE wrote:Offerings are made frequently to the Chaos Gods, in fact they're required to bring about demons, pacts, and demonic lords, therefore, the Chaos Gods require worship, not just emotion, to give them direction.

Not as per what the Chaos codices tell us. It really is just the emotion - in case of Khorne chiefly rage and bloodlust - that empowers the Ruinous Powers, but just like with the Ecclesiarchy, there exist a myriad of manmade rituals and traditions to worship them like gods.

I agree with Lynata here, it's not the act of worship that empowers the Chaos Gods, but the emotion and acts caused by the worship itself that feeds them.

 Lynata wrote:
Furthermore: even if worship would create gods, then the people's adoration of the Emperor would have simply resulted in another Emperor being born in the Warp, existing simultaneously with the real one. That's how it works. Slaanesh is not some Eldar pimp king/queen, he/she is a collective gestalt of the Eldar's emotions from that time, and I assume it would work similarly for Imperial worshipers.

Is that the case though?

The Eldars actions bought the full consciousness of Slaanesh into being, it was there actions that also gave it form in the warp. With the Emperor, he already exists in the warp as well, due to his psychic presence there. This is why I don't believe worshiping the Emperor would create another God, because he already exists. Otherwise there would be a whole plethora of versions of the Emperor in the warp. This, I believe, is why the Emperor cannot be reborn, because his essence is still tied to his mortal body. When this dies he will be released fully and ascend to godhood. This in turn is an argument for him not wanting to become a God, surely he would have advised against being incarcerated in the Golden Throne if he had wanted to become a God.

 Lynata wrote:

After all, what do you think existed first - the Chaos God inspiring worship - or aimless worship not directed at anyone or anything resulting in the creation of a new god? Given how very different the many local cults are, I would deem it highly improbable that they all just happened to "think-birth" the same deity. If it would truly work that way, we would have many, many more "gods" than currently exist.
On the other hand, this might actually fit to what we have read about the spirits within the Warp fighting each other and potentially even absorbing each other, gaining strength and power as they do. Still, such a theory would be incompatible with what the Eldar have experienced. They did not just start to worship an imaginary Slaanesh before he/she/it actually existed, they simply had a big party and on the next morning the Warp was pregnant.

That's interesting.

So early man begins waring with each other > Khorne begins to form > early man labels as war >
Khorne becomes stronger >
Early man recognising the prowess of their enemies invoke the spirits to assist them >
Khorne becomes stronger again >
The tribes put name to a new deity to assist them in war, one worship Uglock the Destroyer the other Marhath the Annihilator, killing and sacrificing in their names increases >
2 Gods form in the warp, the increase in bloodshed feeds Khorne >
The followers of Uglock destroy the tribe of Marhath >
Uglock consumes Marhath >

Advance 100 years say and as the Worship of Khorne becomes the dominant religion of the Blooded, he consumes more and more Gods becoming the strongest a la Slaanesh and the Eldar Gods.

Now this does contradict my own belief that the likes of Ares and Kali are Khorne by a different name.

 DeffDred wrote:

Yeah... wasn't there also a pig? I haven't read any other HH novels twice except Nemesis and Legion.

Yes, it was a heart torn from a virgin who had mated with a swine if I recall.

The Emperor is not a god...he never was. The 'God-Emperor' everyone worships is at best, an illusion that only exists in their heads, or at worst, an usurper and a warp-construct born from the ignorant faith of the misguided masses of Mankind.

ENOZONE wrote:You still haven't managed to answer the question Lynata.

I thought I did - if not, what exactly was your question? In regards to these Imperial Saints, I did point out that the psychic potential of mortal beings is in no way dependent on worship. It's a genetic condition passed on by heritage, and the Ecclesiarchy does not condone Psykers in its ranks. Furthermore, upon death, humans simply cease to exist. Unlike Eldar souls, those of humans are unable to retain their personality (see Codex Eldar) and are reduced to nothing but a blob of tasty energy for various Warp entities to nom on. So even if worship would be able to call forth some sort of Saint (which I still do not believe in), it would not be the same guy that died, but at best something that looks and acts like the people think he/she should.

ENOZONE wrote:I mean this in a good natured way, but please, make a decision between your many angled argument - it's becoming difficult to sort through your text to understand past the contradictions.

Apologies if anything was unclear. I have written about this thesis three times in detail so far, so perhaps I was missing something out of habit just because I already explained it so often. Just keep pointing out things where you feel something is wrong and I shall try to elaborate.

ENOZONE wrote:For example: The absorption and "think births" of deities may not be mutually exclusive to the birth of Slaanesh or the other Chaos gods. After all, when the Eldar performed enough debauchery against themselves, they birthed Slaanesh, who promptly ate most of their pantheon of Gods.

Another theory about the origin of Eldar gods might be that rather than being created by worship, they were the immortal souls of some extraordinarily ancient and powerful Eldar, back when they still did not have to use spirit stones to prevent being eaten by Chaos.

ENOZONE wrote:Second: Theories are either supported or not by bodies of evidence. So either it will be dismantled or upheld...

Sure, theories are (or should be) supported by evidence, but they cannot work as evidence for other theories themselves, and as such never "prove" something.

With 40k, there's also the added caveat that the evidence various theories are based on may itself be contradictory, simply because of a lack of canon and the conflicting nature of different sources. My entire theory about there being no divinity falls apart when I would just incorporate the FFG RPG books into my equation, for example. Of course, those books contradict GW material on a number of other occasions. If you want to read a different interpretation of the topic, however, those books may be of relevance to you. "Blood of Martyrs" in particular contains a lot of stuff on FFG's opinion on how the God-Emperor works.

ENOZONE wrote:Third: You just contradicted yourself again about the non-existence of "Think-Births" and the Navigator's own words of how mere thoughts are made real in the vast regions of the warp, even if for a fleeting moment. If this is true, then it is completely possible that if enough people think and attach emotion to an idea - it would manifest itself as reality in the warp.

It is not a contradiction if you keep in mind that it is a Navigator's own subjective perception of the Immaterium. Valuable insight, which is why I pointed it out as recommended reading, but certainly something where you should keep in mind that things are not what they seem to the characters of the story. "Unpersonal" Codex fluff has explained how the Warp works before, and it was always emotion. Read the entry on Chaos daemons in the very same 6E rulebook, for example.
Thoughts only play into this insofar as they are always connected to some emotion as well.

ENOZONE wrote:Going back to the living saints idea, the combination of the emotions of Fear, Hope, and anger would not serve to create a demi-god in a time of need because those emotions would only go to feed the Chaos Gods.

Fear, maybe. Hope? Why? Going by the Navigator's experiences, the Warp is literally polluted nowadays, flowing over with various "warp spirits" that have come into existence over the millennia. Not all of them are aligned to the Ruinous Powers. It stands to reason that an entity created by emotion will endeavour primarily to keep this emotion growing.

ENOZONE wrote:You need direction for that theory to truly work, a.k.a., a "think birth".

Not at all. In fact, it works much better without direction. Whenever we read about these warp spirits, they do not really seem to act focused or with a specific goal. Rather, they are like animals, acting purely instinctual, depending on the emotion that birthed them.

With the Living Saint, what gives them direction are the memories of the possessed host. After all, from what the GW material tells us, a Living Saint is not some weirdly looking daemon with a strange and alien form. Rather, it takes the form of a perfectly normal human being "ascending". If you take Celestine as the only good example we know anything about, she died and was reborn in her new form and with new powers. We are told it is the same body, and how her resurrection was witnessed by the very Sisters who stood guard over her corpse.

So, one possible explanation (and the one propagated by Ecclesiarchy propaganda) is that the God-Emperor has resurrected her and invested her with some of his divine powers. Since this does not mesh well with the out-of-character background about the Chaos Gods and the Warp, however, my theory is that the emotional turmoil surrounding the events of her death (the crusade and the battle) penetrated some critical threshold (or maybe the Warp was just weak in that place) and resulted in the creation of an aimless entity, which, like some daemons do as well, then possessed the dying Celestine and assimilated her memories.

Kinda far-fetched, I know - yet I feel it sits better with the established fluff about the Warp and the utter absence of "actual" gods and non-psychic divine power in the setting so far.

ENOZONE wrote:As you believe: Only a vast quantity of Emotion creates beings of immense power in the warp. That leaves many questions

Which questions, exactly?

ENOZONE wrote:That explains why deliverance occurs to those who ask for it with prayer in a time of need - not simply hoping against the hope that might be killing them.

Does deliverance occur? It certainly does not seem to be an established standard. People pray to the Emperor because they are devastated and were taught by their culture that it helps, not because it necessarily actually has to result in anything. Just like in real life. Especially in times of need, where even persons of little faith may turn to religion simply because they feel it is better than not being able to do anything about their plight. Prayer gives hope/conviction to the one praying, any other effect is purely theoretical or, at best, coincidence. Else the setting would not be as grimdark, I think.

ENOZONE wrote:So, then it stands that Faith, or directional emotion in the form of prayers, rites, and rituals, is affecting things in the warp - and if the Emperor, and his greatest Martyrs /Saints are being worshiped by hundreds of millions of trillions of people across the galaxy, are they creating Gods of the Imperium?

In a way, this does tie in with my theory about Living Saints, so I would be inclined to agree - as long as it is about emotion rather than religion (even though religion is one source of said emotion). That said, it seems to be exceedingly rare that something like Celestine's resurrection occurs - the Codex tells us that a Living Saint is proclaimed only every few centuries, for example, although much of this process may be muddled by politics. An example in the fluff was a prospective Saint that was in the end executed for connections to the Ruinous Powers. How many Saints have been unjustly burned at the pyres of a zealous Inquisitor? How many sanctioned Saints are actually Chaos Pawns in disguise?

An interesting detail in the 6E timeline would be the mentioning of a number of heroes rising up throughout the Imperium - one in each Segmentum - and performing some important and supposedly miraculous feats before they vanish. This could mean anything, but it is interesting story potential.

Pilau Rice wrote:Is that the case though? The Eldars actions bought the full consciousness of Slaanesh into being, it was there actions that also gave it form in the warp. With the Emperor, he already exists in the warp as well, due to his psychic presence there. This is why I don't believe worshiping the Emperor would create another God, because he already exists. Otherwise there would be a whole plethora of versions of the Emperor in the warp.

That's why I think worship has no effect on him at all, or any other being in the Warp for that matter. It is only during a crisis that the Imperial Cult actually produces that much emotion that a Living Saint may be created. Other times, it simply is not enough, perhaps because most Imperial citizens only pay lip service to the Creed, at least when they are not compelled to invest more feeling into it. In other words, the Imperium would need more zealots.

Pilau Rice wrote:This, I believe, is why the Emperor cannot be reborn, because his essence is still tied to his mortal body. When this dies he will be released fully and ascend to godhood.

I would not call it godhood but rather a rebirth and return to his old status as he was during the Great Crusade ... but yes, your interpretation is supported by the fluff in the Inquisitor RPG, with certain influential powers in the Imperium actively trying to prevent this event.

Pilau Rice wrote:Now this does contradict my own belief that the likes of Ares and Kali are Khorne by a different name.

Personally, I think my own position would be that today's Khorne has ursurped both Ares and Kali and is now revered as both, just like I have a feeling that Khairne is a tad too close to Khorne's domain to be a coincidence.

Pilau Rice wrote:Yes, it was a heart torn from a virgin who had mated with a swine if I recall.

Kinky.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

I should point out that this was explicitly shown in False Gods, the second Horus Heresy novel as written by Graham McNeil.

I forget the specifics, but I recall that for a sort of ritual sacrifice thing, a woman's heart was required, and it had to be cut out by a loved one so that the act of betrayal could draw power from Tzeentch, or something. Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh had similar stips (Okay, well Khorne might have just been RAWR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD but still).

A Chaos Cultist woman had sex with a diseased pig and her heart was consumed by Eerebus. The sex brought out Slaanesh, the pig Nurgle, the betrayer of killing her Tzeentch, and the consumption of blood Khorne.

Those Davinite Priests were a crazy bunch....Personally my favorite part of all that was how the head Priest constantly talked down to Erebus. "We have been worshiping the dark powers for thousands of years young heretic".

Considering the way the Warp amplifies everything, and the state the Imperium is in now, would a warp god emperor be benificial in any way whatsoever for humanity? I mean, the only other chaos god created by a single race was Slaanesh, and that ate the souls of all the Eldar it could find, as well as creating the Eye. So why would a god created by the xenophobic, witch hunting, superstitious Imperium be any better, even if at its core the Emperor is still there (who was a pretty selfish jerk even before being locked inside a rotting corpse for ten thousand years).

 Harriticus wrote:
A Chaos Cultist woman had sex with a diseased pig and her heart was consumed by Eerebus. The sex brought out Slaanesh, the pig Nurgle, the betrayer of killing her Tzeentch, and the consumption of blood Khorne.

Those Davinite Priests were a crazy bunch....Personally my favorite part of all that was how the head Priest constantly talked down to Erebus. "We have been worshiping the dark powers for thousands of years young heretic".

She was very good at talking gak to Erebus.

"I could flay you inside of your armour with a thought, stfu."

Erebus: ._.

She even considered her own mastery of sorcery superior to Magnus the Red's (Probably incorrectly though, consdering he did eventually break through the wards placed in the temple).

 Void__Dragon wrote:

She even considered her own mastery of sorcery superior to Magnus the Red's (Probably incorrectly though, consdering he did eventually break through the wards placed in the temple).

Arrogant bitch...seeing as Magnus was taught sorcery by Tzeentch and the Emperor.

I have returned rested and ready, so this debate will be much more cordial. I've shortened the wall of text considerably, but still tried to answer as many points that have been raised. I may have missed or neglected a few though, it was a lot to sort through.

1, There is no evidence to suggest what happens to humans after they die. Theories and beliefs perhaps - but nothing more concrete than what we have in real life.

2. Skipping ahead to your thoughts on a Saint's creation further down the page, lets assume that Saint's are not called by worship, but rather emotional distress caused by conflict. What emotion involved in war is not already fueling the Chaos Gods? Hope and ambition belong to Tzeentch, fear and despair belong to Nurgle, hate and vengeance belong to Khorne, compassion, adoration, and desire belong to Slaanesh. If the God-Emperor is being created by an "orderly" emotion, what emotion is that - and what gives it direction against the four Chaos Gods? Furthermore, why would directionless, aimless energy that is not already claimed by a Chaos God be thrust into a corpse to reawaken it if not influenced by the God-Emperor who is somehow not influenced by the thoughts of His followers?

3. The truth then is that emotions alone are not enough to conjure the Chaos Gods, the emotions are tied to thoughts, and thoughts direct the actions of an individual. Without thought, Tzeentch's base emotions, hope and ambition, would simply amass to a great vision of splendor and visions of a glorious future, but the dreams of utopia descending to nightmares and scheming of the beings in the galaxy twisted that primeval emotion into the Fateweaver we know.

So the unanswered questions are thus:

What emotion does the God-Emperor derive his power from the screaming trillions of people that worship him, if it is not the worship itself that is granting his power?

Why would random warp spirits possess the dead over the living? St. Celestine was dead for days before she was risen. It is far easier to inhabit the body of a mortal who has "invited" you, than it is to fully go against nature - which is why it happens so often to those that worship demons. Or at least I'm inferring this as Chaos possession is common, and rarely, if ever, involves resurrection. Also, the warp is jammed to overflow with these spirits, why do Living Saints -especially the most zealous of them all, the SoB's- seldom [never] become possessed while they are alive and more vulnerable to a warp spirit aligned to their emotion? If this was truly the case, where spirits simply jump the bridge into a preferable host's body, GK's, BT's, Priests, and SoB, would be rife with possession even with what defenses they prepare against them. Yet, to date, only one SoB has fallen to Chaos, and it was willingly done. To my knowledge, few BT's and fewer still GK's have betrayed the Emperor let alone been possessed.

 Lynata wrote:


With the Living Saint, what gives them direction are the memories of the possessed host. After all, from what the GW material tells us, a Living Saint is not some weirdly looking daemon with a strange and alien form. Rather, it takes the form of a perfectly normal human being "ascending".

No, actually you do need direction. A blast of aimless emotion would create a spawn of Chaos as raw warp energy often does to humanity in the form of a magic missile or rolling wave of ethereal wind. So it stands that a specific, yet nameless form of emotion has to be present in the warp to repeatedly "ascend" someone to Sainthood. After all, a Living Saint takes the wings of an Aquila, has an angelic halo, is an anathema to even the greatest of the Dark Gods servants - it embodies the desire of a savior to deliver that which has given the Saint power in the first place, and finally wouldn't dare consume them as any pure warp entity would naturally attempt to. This leads me to a critical linchpin of this argument, these demi-gods or "mini-slaaneshes" as they've been toted, are fully capable of utterly destroying even the greatest servants of the Dark Gods in real space - who have the support of the emotional states of the entire galaxy and perhaps the universe available to them while a Saint can only draw upon its localized influence, which seems impossible without a greater influence empowering them. Also, Saints seem to not be influenced by the size of a population, they can appear anywhere to smite those it's vessel dictates regardless if the Saint is fighting alongside 100 SoB, or in a massive crusade. Likewise, even after they take lethal damage, or are completely annihilated in real space, they are unlike the servants of the Chaos Gods - their forms (and more importantly their memories of their host) are retained as they are banished back into the warp. The question that then arises is how - if human souls are nullified after they die - do Saints retain the body, mind, and spirit of the human they are possessing, even after their vessel's complete destruction? Also, why does that particular Saint return centuries later, completely reformed in it's old body, rather than take up arms in another when it is supposedly an aimless, directionless, feral creature without it's host?

 Lynata wrote:

How many Saints have been unjustly burned at the pyres of a zealous Inquisitor? How many sanctioned Saints are actually Chaos Pawns in disguise?

That so far is the most interesting question for all to ponder. I have no answer.

 Lynata wrote:
I thought I did - if not, what exactly was your question? In regards to these Imperial Saints, I did point out that the psychic potential of mortal beings is in no way dependent on worship. It's a genetic condition passed on by heritage, and the Ecclesiarchy does not condone Psykers in its ranks. Furthermore, upon death, humans simply cease to exist. Unlike Eldar souls, those of humans are unable to retain their personality (see Codex Eldar) and are reduced to nothing but a blob of tasty energy for various Warp entities to nom on. So even if worship would be able to call forth some sort of Saint (which I still do not believe in), it would not be the same guy that died, but at best something that looks and acts like the people think he/she should.

If emotion from living beings, not just psykers, creates things that inhabit the warp, then can emotions directed by religion create a Deity, or even a pantheon of Deities, such as the God-Emperor and his most adored martyrs?

A more important question is this: would the Space Marines and Custodians kneel before such a being? These people remember who the Emperor was, and what his ideals were - the only thing that stops them from turning against the Imperium for abandoning those ideals is their duty. Which does not include kneeling before an usurper. We already see this in the Chapter Cults' refusal to worship the Emperor. The Space Wolves in particular would definitely go up in flames in an instant.

ENOZONE wrote:1, There is no evidence to suggest what happens to humans after they die. Theories and beliefs perhaps - but nothing more concrete than what we have in real life.

"If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. To a Human, such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of the Human mind being paltry compared to that of an Eldar."
- 4E Codex: Eldar, p14 Spirit Stones

ENOZONE wrote:2. Skipping ahead to your thoughts on a Saint's creation further down the page, lets assume that Saint's are not called by worship, but rather emotional distress caused by conflict. What emotion involved in war is not already fueling the Chaos Gods? Hope and ambition belong to Tzeentch, fear and despair belong to Nurgle, hate and vengeance belong to Khorne, compassion, adoration, and desire belong to Slaanesh. If the God-Emperor is being created by an "orderly" emotion, what emotion is that - and what gives it direction against the four Chaos Gods?

Fear would be a possible option. Courage. Disgust. Depression. Awe. Truth be told, I did not spend much time thinking about which emotion in particular could lend itself best, but there are a few options. It is also possible that it is a certain combination, perhaps with some emotions "shared" with the Ruinous Powers - after all, the Chaos Gods do share some emotions to a certain degree themselves, so why should the force of Order (if we wish to call it that) not tap into this? I know dakka has some posters making theories about the Emperor as the Carrion-God, so perhaps they can add to this discussion.
As to the direction, I would presume it either comes naturally (as it does to the Chaos Gods) like some sort of instinct, or it is a result of the merger with the host and her memory. Just theories, of course.

ENOZONE wrote:Furthermore, why would directionless, aimless energy that is not already claimed by a Chaos God be thrust into a corpse to reawaken it if not influenced by the God-Emperor who is somehow not influenced by the thoughts of His followers?

Well, it is not aimless if it is following instincts - as we are told all Warp entities supposedly do, all depending on what exactly spawned them. Thus,

Note that I am also not categorically disapproving of any connection of the people's worship to the Emperor, I just think that if there is any such connection, it too would be based on emotions fueling something in the Warp (to which the Emperor - being some sort of Mega-Psyker - obviously is connected, especially now with his Astronomican), and that it would not affect his "power level". It could make it easier for him to contact his people, however? Like ... a vision, riding piggyback on the subtle link between the Immaterium and certain individuals with a special kind of connection? Just thinking out loud.

ENOZONE wrote:3. The truth then is that emotions alone are not enough to conjure the Chaos Gods, the emotions are tied to thoughts, and thoughts direct the actions of an individual. Without thought, Tzeentch's base emotions, hope and ambition, would simply amass to a great vision of splendor and visions of a glorious future, but the dreams of utopia descending to nightmares and scheming of the beings in the galaxy twisted that primeval emotion into the Fateweaver we know.

"The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space. It is a random, unstructured dimension of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose.
The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one; both are formed of the same Warp energy. As a Chaos God gathers energy it expands, its corresponding influence on the Warp around it broadens and its territory in the Realm of Chaos grows. No two visions of these realms are ever the same basic themes and feelings. As extensions of the gods, the appearances of these domains are formed upon the same emotions that created their masters."
- 5E Codex: Chaos Daemons

I'm sorry, I'm seeing a strong focus on emotions here. Also keep in mind that the Chaos Gods are by far not worshiped as such on many worlds. Quite a lot of cultures would seem to know them under different names (logically, given the limitations of space travel). However, you still are not too far off, although I believe you have it backwards. It is true that emotions are tied to thoughts, but rather than thoughts directing the actions of a Chaos God, it is a Chaos cultist's thoughts that emanate emotion, which in turn fuel the God's existence. Also, you seem confident that a Chaos God would not know what to do without specific directions "transmitted" via thoughts, rather than pure emotion as a drive alone. This is where I disagree. Emotion as a motivator is sufficient for a Chaos God to grow a consciousness of its own. After all, this is how it works in real life as well, does it not? Consciousness is not created by outside influence - it simply pops into existence and then starts to learn, to grow, to adapt. This, I think, may well be how the Chaos powers have "evolved".

However, an interesting bit is that the very same Codex then goes on to tell us this:
"Daemons are beings of a completely different nature to their masters, and are the most numerous creatures in the Warp. A Daemon is 'born' when a Chaos God gives up a little of its power to create a separate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the Warp."

Now, if the God-Emperor has a presence within the Warp, is it possible that he would create his own "Daemons of Order", and instill them with a personality and consciousness befitting his motifs? Are these the Living Saints, perhaps?

ENOZONE wrote:Why would random warp spirits possess the dead over the living? St. Celestine was dead for days before she was risen. It is far easier to inhabit the body of a mortal who has "invited" you, than it is to fully go against nature - which is why it happens so often to those that worship demons. Or at least I'm inferring this as Chaos possession is common, and rarely, if ever, involves resurrection. Also, the warp is jammed to overflow with these spirits, why do Living Saints -especially the most zealous of them all, the SoB's- seldom [never] become possessed while they are alive and more vulnerable to a warp spirit aligned to their emotion?

But Chaos possession is not that common, else it would not require a specific set-up by the Cults that practice it, or the Daemon to negotiate and trick their host into allowing them in.
Keep in mind that the Sisters of Battle in particular are "shielded" against psychic powers due to their willpower, lifestyle and indoctrination, even moreso than the Space Marines. It may be irony that they subconsciously "block out" their own God's Warp-spawned emissaries simply because it's all Psyker stuff. So the best way to possess a Sister would be to take her corpse rather than trying to break her will as she still lives.

ENOZONE wrote:Yet, to date, only one SoB has fallen to Chaos, and it was willingly done.

If you are referring to Miriael Sabathiel, she was tortured for months until she broke - that's not a "willing" fall...
Also, the amount of "Fallen Sisters" depends entirely on the books you'd read. GW itself has never written about a single one, whereas some outsourced literature seem to suggest this happens every Tuesday. Just a remark concerning the fickle nature of the setting when it comes to such details, however - I have actually adopted Miriael's story into my personal interpretation of the 'verse as well, even though she's not from GW. But I think she is just too badass to be ignored, and a single exception from the rule still preserves the Sisters' theme.

ENOZONE wrote:This leads me to a critical linchpin of this argument, these demi-gods or "mini-slaaneshes" as they've been toted, are fully capable of utterly destroying even the greatest servants of the Dark Gods in real space - who have the support of the emotional states of the entire galaxy and perhaps the universe available to them while a Saint can only draw upon its localized influence, which seems impossible without a greater influence empowering them. Also, Saints seem to not be influenced by the size of a population, they can appear anywhere to smite those it's vessel dictates regardless if the Saint is fighting alongside 100 SoB, or in a massive crusade.

Well, the WH Codex tells us that a Living Saint does not exist for long and will eventually disappear. In my theory, this is based upon the turmoil of emotion slowly falling below the critical threshold (ironically because the Saint is so successful at her work), at which the Living Saint's "link" to the realspace grows weaker and it will eventually be pulled back into the Immaterium.
As for the population, it may be less a question of numbers but rather the zeal of the individuals, or at least a combination of the two. It would certainly explain why Adepta Sororitas heroines seem to be the most likely Imperials to "ascend". Also, to simply appear somewhere may be easier for the Living Saint than to be "born", simply because it already exists. Perhaps the location itself plays a role as well, with the barrier between realspace and Immaterium being weaker allowing not only the Daemons of Chaos an easier passage, but also these "Daemons of Order"?

ENOZONE wrote:Likewise, even after they take lethal damage, or are completely annihilated in real space, they are unlike the servants of the Chaos Gods - their forms (and more importantly their memories of their host) are retained as they are banished back into the warp. The question that then arises is how - if human souls are nullified after they die - do Saints retain the body, mind, and spirit of the human they are possessing, even after their vessel's complete destruction? Also, why does that particular Saint return centuries later, completely reformed in it's old body, rather than take up arms in another when it is supposedly an aimless, directionless, feral creature without it's host?

"The destruction of a Daemon's physical form will banish it from realspace, but will not end its existence. The malefic presence will gradually reform again in the Warp, nursing its hatred and its grudge for long decades or even centuries. If such an entity gets a chance, it will return, its hatred further stoked with a horrible vengeance in mind."
- 6E 40k Rulebook

ENOZONE wrote:If emotion from living beings, not just psykers, creates things that inhabit the warp, then can emotions directed by religion create a Deity, or even a pantheon of Deities, such as the God-Emperor and his most adored martyrs?

The emotion itself, yes, I would say. Religion will ultimately be unable to directly influence whatever the emotions conjured by worship create, but it can be used to steer things into a certain direction, if you get my drift. Just like the many Pleasure Cults amongst the Eldar eventually resulted in the birth of Slaanesh.

This is an interesting exchange, by the way. Our interpretations seem to be quite different on a number of sub-topics, but it's a fun exchange.

Tadashi wrote:A more important question is this: would the Space Marines and Custodians kneel before such a being? These people remember who the Emperor was, and what his ideals were

No, I'm fairly sure they do not "remember". They are being told, just like everyone else. Just that their Chaplains tell them a different story than what the Ecclesiarchy Preacher tells his flock.
Anyways, I'd say the Marines' reaction would depend simply on one thing: Does this Emperor visually appear to be the guy that sat on the Golden Throne? If yes, it's him. If there is still a corpse on the Golden Throne (and the Space Marines are told of it), then I would assume they'd be way more sceptical. As would be a whole other people in the Imperium, including the Inquisition. One does not just appear out of nowhere and claim to be Him-on-Earth.
That said, if the guy actually manages to turn an important battle around or otherwise be able to display miraculous abilities that benefit the IoM, he's got a good start and would probably gain supporters quickly, at least amidst the more impressionable folks.

 Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:A more important question is this: would the Space Marines and Custodians kneel before such a being? These people remember who the Emperor was, and what his ideals were

No, I'm fairly sure they do not "remember". They are being told, just like everyone else. Just that their Chaplains tell them a different story than what the Ecclesiarchy Preacher tells his flock.
Anyways, I'd say the Marines' reaction would depend simply on one thing: Does this Emperor visually appear to be the guy that sat on the Golden Throne? If yes, it's him. If there is still a corpse on the Golden Throne (and the Space Marines are told of it), then I would assume they'd be way more sceptical. As would be a whole other people in the Imperium, including the Inquisition. One does not just appear out of nowhere and claim to be Him-on-Earth.
That said, if the guy actually manages to turn an important battle around or otherwise be able to display miraculous abilities that benefit the IoM, he's got a good start and would probably gain supporters quickly, at least amidst the more impressionable folks.

Bjorn remembers...the Space Wolves would never kneel. And if they get word to the other Second Founding Chapters, its a civil war in the making. The Dark Angels would probably side with the Space Wolves - like their Primarchs, the Wolves and the Unforgiven are vitriolic best buddies.

 Lynata wrote:
The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place

THat's kidn of debatable.

Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place

THat's kidn of debatable.

Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.

The Burning of Monarchia, the subsequent proscription and persecution of any form of worship of himself or any deity prove otherwise.

The Emperor either actively wanted to end up on the Golden Throne or was a hugely incompetent idiot, IMHO.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor either actively wanted to end up on the Golden Throne or was a hugely incompetent idiot, IMHO.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it as well.

Although the golden throne wasn't meant to be a life support like it is, so he probably didn't plan that part at least.