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Hey Fellas,

Try this one on for size...

The extra attack models get for being armed with a second hand weapon could be rolled in a different color dice, and use the weapons FULL rules in Close combat. Meaning...My Howling Banshees will get one attack at str 4 ap 5 for using their Shuriken Pistols.
Inferno pistol-- one shot at ap 1....Think about it, our Storm Guardians decide that when the enemy finally gets into assault, we PUT OUR SHURIKEN PISTOLS AWAY AND BASH WITH OUR FISTS!!!! Because that is SOOO MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE!!!!
It doesnt slow down the game any.
Tell me what you think..
Andyman

Do you use WS or BS for this? WS seems to be the logical case, as it represents your ability to hit a target in close combat, the target who is swirling around you and trying to punch your face off, while BS represents how good you're at aiming, but there's no time for that when someone is about to stab you in the face.

In any case, what about hand flamer? Do they use the wall of death rules? Or do they just get to put a template down? Wouldn't this give an unfair advantage to unit that can bring a lot of melta pistols in?

We used the d3 hits for flamers. A successful hit with the pistol causes d3. And yes, we use WS rather than BS. And the idea isnt a one-well placed shot, rather emptying the clip into old boys gut!!
And as far as the unfair advantage, the model had to pay the points for the weapon, so let 'em have it!!

So what happens if a model is armed with two pistols and 3 base attacks?

All attack dice are counted as pistols. They would of course get the attace for the charge and the extra attack for the second hand weapon. And yes, that does make duel pistol wielders pretty sick!!

Every unit has to pay for what they do, TH/SS termies, for example, have to pay through their nose to be that powerful, so saying that pistol-wielders should get to use their pistols in combat just because they've paid for it is rather... unfair.

This will really cause a lot of balancing issue. Vanguard veterans, for example, can have every member replace their bolt pistol or chainsword for a melta pistol, so not only are they cheaper than termies, they can fire melta pistols before they charge, or on overwatch, then when they're in combat, they get a lot more pistol shots than they'd otherwise get in the entire game, all high strength AP1 attacks with no initiative penalty. And then you have supposedly-melee powerhouse like incubi being reduced to a joke with their S4 AP2 attacks, no shooting before charge, etc.

While it may sounds nice in a "cinematic" sense, and definitely good news for army that can bring a lot of gunslingers, it will really destroy the balance, I think.

I think that it is unrealistic to use the pistol for all attacks or even for 1: Instead it should be a small chance or kept as is. For example, for every attack you hit with in combat you roll an additional D6. If its a 6, you get to use your pistol's stats instead (assuming you get an extra attack from it only)

Maybe having a model drop all of its close combat strikes and exchange it for the one pistol shot? As well, maybe make it easier for enemy models to hit you in H2H, presumably because you're not actively parrying with whatever melee weapon you possess and are instead trying to blast your enemy in close combat?

The utility of pistols in close quarters combat is represented by being able to fire them before assaulting. Realistically a pistol is nothing more than a club/sap in hand to hand fighting. Even if you could get a shot off with it while concentrating on fencing with the enemy, the odds of hitting accurately are very low. On top of that, the round has to go somewhere if it does not hit the enemy...does it hit friendly models? Does it fly out of combat?

If you are going to run with it, I would recomend inverting the bit about hand Flamers, give them d3 attacks instead of a hit causing d3 potential wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If (strong IF) I were to be on board with pistols in CC as anything other than +1 attack it would be as so:

Instead of +1 attack the model may elect to fire its pistol. If he does so, he makes a single snap shot with the weapons str and AP at I10. He then attacks normally at his initiative.

GREAT FEEDBACK GUYS!!!! KEEP IT COMING!!

 Lightcavalier wrote:
The utility of pistols in close quarters combat is represented by being able to fire them before assaulting. Realistically a pistol is nothing more than a club/sap in hand to hand fighting. Even if you could get a shot off with it while concentrating on fencing with the enemy, the odds of hitting accurately are very low. On top of that, the round has to go somewhere if it does not hit the enemy...does it hit friendly models? Does it fly out of combat?

If you are going to run with it, I would recomend inverting the bit about hand Flamers, give them d3 attacks instead of a hit causing d3 potential wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If (strong IF) I were to be on board with pistols in CC as anything other than +1 attack it would be as so:

Instead of +1 attack the model may elect to fire its pistol. If he does so, he makes a single snap shot with the weapons str and AP at I10. He then attacks normally at his initiative.

Hmm, how would this work with Overwatch? Hammer of Wrath?

It WOULD see people putting Plasma Pistols back on models, but at the same time, it seems a mite OP; I effectively get 2 Plasma Pistol shots off before attackers get to grips with me. Admittedly, a PP does have a chance of exploding, but at the same time, it's silly when you're being charged by Termies, even with snap shots.

Pistols are kind of over-priced for what you get.
Many lists have pistols and normal versions of the same weapon at the same cost.

I know my blood angel assault squads take melta guns, not melta pistols. +1 attack isn't worth half range.

Now if I had to choose between half range and a bonus S8 AP1 attack, I might go pistol.

What unit gets so many "good" pistols where this matters?
I honestly don't care if guardians get 1 S4 and 1 S3 attack, they still suck.
I'd rather face death company with a bonus pistol attack; those pistols are expensive and it means less of everything else on the table.

Keep in mind, Pistols used to be able to rapid fire (twice at 12" if you didn't move) and we didn't see the meta then be pistol spam. I don't think giving pistols a little more love is going to break anything.


If you think pistols are too good, make the bonus shot at Init 1. Then you aren't getting around the No AP2 faster than init 1 theme that is with few exception in 6th edition.

-Matt

It's not that pistols are too good, but more that the game was made with pistols having the current restriction in mind, for example, your very own BA's vanguard veterans, while expensive, could get 15 WS4 I4 S8 AP1 melta attacks on the charge in combat if we were to go by the OP's proposal to give dual pistol wielder the ability to just use pistol's profile in melee, even if they were to go single pistol, give them a jump pack each and they can melt any tank with heroic intervention.

But you're right in that guardians would still be a joke... Just that it's not the case for some units out there. It'll need some major rebalancing per codex to make it so it won't become melta meta(see what I did there?!).

I know for sure if this homebrew rule is in my gaming group, my DE would go full venom spam, as we have no unit that could bring that many high strength low AP pistols into combat.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Hey Fellas,

Try this one on for size...

The extra attack models get for being armed with a second hand weapon could be rolled in a different color dice, and use the weapons FULL rules in Close combat. Meaning...My Howling Banshees will get one attack at str 4 ap 5 for using their Shuriken Pistols.
Inferno pistol-- one shot at ap 1....Think about it, our Storm Guardians decide that when the enemy finally gets into assault, we PUT OUR SHURIKEN PISTOLS AWAY AND BASH WITH OUR FISTS!!!! Because that is SOOO MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE!!!!
It doesnt slow down the game any.
Tell me what you think..
Andyman

Should be like using grenades and bombs in melee. One attack using its profile.

Baronyu wrote:
It's not that pistols are too good, but more that the game was made with pistols having the current restriction in mind, for example, your very own BA's vanguard veterans, while expensive, could get 15 WS4 I4 S8 AP1 melta attacks on the charge in combat if we were to go by the OP's proposal to give dual pistol wielder the ability to just use pistol's profile in melee, even if they were to go single pistol, give them a jump pack each and they can melt any tank with heroic intervention.

But you're right in that guardians would still be a joke... Just that it's not the case for some units out there. It'll need some major rebalancing per codex to make it so it won't become melta meta(see what I did there?!).

I know for sure if this homebrew rule is in my gaming group, my DE would go full venom spam, as we have no unit that could bring that many high strength low AP pistols into combat.

That's a ~300 point unit with a 6" shooting range (and only 13 attacks, the leader can't buy a 2nd pistol). Equal points of any dedicated combat troop is likely to clean them up.
I'd be happy to see an opponent buy double pistols. At ~+30 points per model, it is not anything near over-powered.

-Matt

Using pistols at statline in close combat? *puts finger on chin and tilts head thoughtfully...

imagines a unit of Seraphim with dual Hand Flamer upgrades and a plasma pistol superior scything through tactical squads with 4d3 automatic S3 AP6 hits before rolling the other eight of the unit's ten models' attacks*

No... no, lets not do that.

Which could be rectified by replacing all CC attacks with one pistol attack, if desired. Maybe add +1 for your enemy to hit you since you're focused on shooting them.

I was thinking about this and came up with rules for it that I thought were pretty balanced and address the majority/all of the issues.

Any model may elect to resolve their close combat attacks with their pistols, but suffer the following penalties:
-the +1 A for two one-handed weapons may only be gained by two pistols.
-the unit may never counter-attack, and suffer from a disoriented charge (no charge bonus)
-WS is reduced by 2, and I is reduced by 1 (both to a minumum of 1) to represent the difficulty aiming and slower reaction time.
-any roll of a 1 to hit results in a hit on the closest friendly unit within range of the pistol.
-Hand Flamers roll a D3 for the number of enemy hits, and D3-1 for friendly enemy hits. WS is neglected in this case.
-if the model has two pistols, the attacks are split evenly between the two (remainder is chosen by owning player)



Doing some mathhammer, this is what it resulted in:

6x vanguard vets (1 bolt pistol, 1 melta pistol)
6x terminators (2 lightning claws, 4 thunder hammers)

Veteran's charge

I 10: 6 auto hits, 3 wounds, no dead terminators

I 4: 6 LC attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead vets

I 3: 6 melta pistol attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 2 dead terminators
1 melta pistol hit on own squad, 1 dead vet
3 bolt pistol attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead terminator

I 1: 6x TH attacks, easily kills remaining 2 veterans.


Summary, 3 Hammernators remain (4 if rounding against the veterans)


That seems pretty dang balanced to me. Results are about the same if the veterans are charged. If I remember right, even with overwatch the terminators end up with 4-5 left.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Using pistols at statline in close combat? *puts finger on chin and tilts head thoughtfully...

imagines a unit of Seraphim with dual Hand Flamer upgrades and a plasma pistol superior scything through tactical squads with 4d3 automatic S3 AP6 hits before rolling the other eight of the unit's ten models' attacks*

No... no, lets not do that.

Which is why it would be better only allowing a single shot rather than using the A characteristic. Also I ment using the Strength and AP but Melee range using comparitive WSs. It works out better for some models. Think of it more like a Krak grenade or melta bomb attack that can be used on infantry (etc) also. I might also be inclined to give it an init bonus to counter some of the negatives. Nothing too much, like a +1I.

That is limited to 1 attack per pistol, Bausk. Seraphim have dual pistols, and upgrade to dual pistols, which fire independently (IE, 2 hand flamers fire as 2 hand flamers, not a twin-linked hand flamer).

But you're suggesting that, what? A Seraphim with 2 Bolt Pistols can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks (2 + 2 CCW) for 2 WS4 S4 AP5 attacks (2 bolt pistols), and a Seraphim with 2 Hand Flamers can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks for 2 WS4 S3 AP6 attacks?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That is limited to 1 attack per pistol, Bausk. Seraphim have dual pistols, and upgrade to dual pistols, which fire independently (IE, 2 hand flamers fire as 2 hand flamers, not a twin-linked hand flamer).

But you're suggesting that, what? A Seraphim with 2 Bolt Pistols can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks (2 + 2 CCW) for 2 WS4 S4 AP5 attacks (2 bolt pistols), and a Seraphim with 2 Hand Flamers can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks for 2 WS4 S3 AP6 attacks?

I said one attack per model, like grenades in assault. So that way it is a real trade that may not even be worth it for some models but would improve the unitlity of others. For instance, I wouldnt bother taking a plasma pistol anywhere right now, but if this rule was 100% legit I'd definatly think it was worth spending 15 points on a S7 AP2 Init striking attack. That still may get hot.

 Bausk wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That is limited to 1 attack per pistol, Bausk. Seraphim have dual pistols, and upgrade to dual pistols, which fire independently (IE, 2 hand flamers fire as 2 hand flamers, not a twin-linked hand flamer).

But you're suggesting that, what? A Seraphim with 2 Bolt Pistols can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks (2 + 2 CCW) for 2 WS4 S4 AP5 attacks (2 bolt pistols), and a Seraphim with 2 Hand Flamers can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks for 2 WS4 S3 AP6 attacks?

I said one attack per model, like grenades in assault. So that way it is a real trade that may not even be worth it for some models but would improve the unitlity of others. For instance, I wouldnt bother taking a plasma pistol anywhere right now, but if this rule was 100% legit I'd definatly think it was worth spending 15 points on a S7 AP2 Init striking attack. That still may get hot.

Strongly agree with you, Bausk. But, pistols are better than grenades because they can be used against anything, not just vehicles and MCs. Therefore, I would make them Unwieldy as well.

olcottr wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That is limited to 1 attack per pistol, Bausk. Seraphim have dual pistols, and upgrade to dual pistols, which fire independently (IE, 2 hand flamers fire as 2 hand flamers, not a twin-linked hand flamer).

But you're suggesting that, what? A Seraphim with 2 Bolt Pistols can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks (2 + 2 CCW) for 2 WS4 S4 AP5 attacks (2 bolt pistols), and a Seraphim with 2 Hand Flamers can swap 3 WS4 S3 AP- attacks for 2 WS4 S3 AP6 attacks?

I said one attack per model, like grenades in assault. So that way it is a real trade that may not even be worth it for some models but would improve the unitlity of others. For instance, I wouldnt bother taking a plasma pistol anywhere right now, but if this rule was 100% legit I'd definatly think it was worth spending 15 points on a S7 AP2 Init striking attack. That still may get hot.

Strongly agree with you, Bausk. But, pistols are better than grenades because they can be used against anything, not just vehicles and MCs. Therefore, I would make them Unwieldy as well.

Only a few pistols come close to that level of awesome, they are usually more expensive than melta bombs and a special weapon combined so there is no issue with them striking at init level. Lord knows plasma pistols are a joke for what you pay for them now, 15 points I can get a plasma gun for that cost. The two real standout pistols will be plasma pistols and melta based pistols. Both of which are "rare" and expensive. Sure those 2 or so shots per unit will be brutal, but it will still only be 2 or so shots. Think of them like special weapons for assault units.

The point is having a trade off attack profile, at init 1 you might as well buy a power axe instead of a plasma pistol and get more attacks or get 2-3 attacks without an AP rather than wasting your time on a S4 AP 5 attack or a poison 4+ AP- attack (in the case of splinter pistols) that will hit at the same time as a fething power fist.