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I'm curious what you'd suggest is a good loadout for a Nob leading a group of boyz in a challenge against MEQ. I was thinking of just using a the old PK+bp combo as I'm not seeing too many advantages with a big choppa. With the PK I'm getting 4 attacks on the charge with S8, I1, AP2 which sounds like a dead Marine Sergeant or Wolf guard termie to me. Any thoughts?

Str 9 on the charge, you forgot the furious charge bonus.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Str 9 on the charge, you forgot the furious charge bonus.

lol yessir indeed I did! Would you suggest I stick with this loadout?

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Str 9 on the charge, you forgot the furious charge bonus.

lol yessir indeed I did! Would you suggest I stick with this loadout?

I still run them that way because it works for me against the people I play with, mainly guard, & nids. I rarely face a MEQ so I really couldn't say what works best for them. From what I see on the forums though the best thing to do is keep the nob at the back so he can't be challenged in the first round of combat, that way he'll live long enough to get in one round of PK attacks.

sirlynchmob wrote:

From what I see on the forums though the best thing to do is keep the nob at the back so he can't be challenged in the first round of combat, that way he'll live long enough to get in one round of PK attacks.

oh wow I was actually planning on issuing a challenge on the charge. Is this a bad idea?

btw, I didn't know that the character's position had anything to do with whether or not they can be challenged. I thought that even if the character is in the back, there's an elaborate list of steps to go through to try to get the two characters into base to base contact.

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

From what I see on the forums though the best thing to do is keep the nob at the back so he can't be challenged in the first round of combat, that way he'll live long enough to get in one round of PK attacks.

oh wow I was actually planning on issuing a challenge on the charge. Is this a bad idea?

btw, I didn't know that the character's position had anything to do with whether or not they can be challenged. I thought that even if the character is in the back, there's an elaborate list of steps to go through to try to get the two characters into base to base contact.

People are still iffy on if the position of the guy prevents you from challenging or not. There was a huge thread on YMDC a while ago about it.

As for challenging, as long as you think you can survive whatever hits the marine can put down, go for it. Most of the time they'll only get a single wound on you before you squish them, but just remember that if he gets lucky he can kill your nob before he swings. I'd be most careful around guys with maces, as they'll be wounding you on 2's, and ignoring any armor you have.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

From what I see on the forums though the best thing to do is keep the nob at the back so he can't be challenged in the first round of combat, that way he'll live long enough to get in one round of PK attacks.

oh wow I was actually planning on issuing a challenge on the charge. Is this a bad idea?

btw, I didn't know that the character's position had anything to do with whether or not they can be challenged. I thought that even if the character is in the back, there's an elaborate list of steps to go through to try to get the two characters into base to base contact.

People are still iffy on if the position of the guy prevents you from challenging or not. There was a huge thread on YMDC a while ago about it.

As for challenging, as long as you think you can survive whatever hits the marine can put down, go for it. Most of the time they'll only get a single wound on you before you squish them, but just remember that if he gets lucky he can kill your nob before he swings. I'd be most careful around guys with maces, as they'll be wounding you on 2's, and ignoring any armor you have.

If you can't swing blows you can't issue or accept challenges. pg 64 is really clear on it. That's why all my models are single, not a ring on them, they're not engaged

I think issuing challenges is a bad idea as you only get to kill 1 model, If you live to swing. Then against MEQ's is usually just a single wound. Where if the nob can swing into the combat you should get 2 or 3 wounds.
My only exception is against MC's that are characters and have less than 4 wounds left. Then you get to issue, and get up to 4 rerolls, to ensure you get your 4 wounds in.

sirlynchmob wrote:
My only exception is against MC's that are characters and have less than 4 wounds left. Then you get to issue, and get up to 4 rerolls, to ensure you get your 4 wounds in.

You'd need to survive first... Which means that it's only ever worth to try it against a wounded Tervigon / Carnifex...

Absolutely equip your Nobs with Power Klaws over Big Choppas. Neither weapon is going to change your survivability. The power of the Nob is that you are WS4, T4, and have 2 wounds. You can take a hit and keep going.

With a BC, you hit at I3, so you are going after just about everybody with a non-unwieldy weapon anyway. 3 or 4 attacks, 1 to 2 hits, 1 to 2 wounds, and then they take their armour saves, which is generally 3+ or better for characters in other armies. Just like you, it is hard to kill a multi-wound character.

With a PK, you hit at I1, after everybody, but you were going to with a BC anyway. Now your S8 or 9 AP2 attacks will force invul saves, causing Instant Death and negating FNP and armour saves from just about everybody out there.

Also, invoking and accepting challenges is a strategy all of its own. I never accept a challenge when I know my Boyz will mop up whatever I am facing. When I do, it is to sacrifice the Nob to the 7 S7 I7 WS7 attacks Nasty McNasty is going to lay on the Mob.

Who has those stats, yikes!

Phoenix Lord Karandras from the Eldar Codex comes close. He can charge with 7 regular S5 I7 WS7 attacks, or 7 S8 I1 WS7 Power Fist attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm pretty sure there are more out there.

Challenge my bloodthirster with the nob of your 30 strong mob of boyz

come on! you get bonus's for the boyz that aren't fighting

 Jihallah wrote:
Challenge my bloodthirster with the nob of your 30 strong mob of boyz

come on! you get bonus's for the boyz that aren't fighting

You play daemons? How quaint

But for him I'd let you assault me and take my 60 snap shots. I'm not sure what kind of upgrades you can give him but gw says he has 4 wounds with a 4+ save. so first I'd snap shot you, then I'd decline the charge (or stay out of range) then let the other 29 boys finish you off in CC. Heck if nothing else the boys should keep it occupied for the rest of the game.

 Jihallah wrote:
Challenge my bloodthirster with the nob of your 30 strong mob of boyz

come on! you get bonus's for the boyz that aren't fighting

hmm, comparing your 250 pt bloodthirster to a 41 pt nob/pk doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I'd be willing to challenge your bloodthirster with Ghazzy on the charge....

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:
Challenge my bloodthirster with the nob of your 30 strong mob of boyz

come on! you get bonus's for the boyz that aren't fighting

You play daemons? How quaint

But for him I'd let you assault me and take my 60 snap shots. I'm not sure what kind of upgrades you can give him but gw says he has 4 wounds with a 4+ save. so first I'd snap shot you, then I'd decline the charge (or stay out of range) then let the other 29 boys finish you off in CC. Heck if nothing else the boys should keep it occupied for the rest of the game.

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:
Challenge my bloodthirster with the nob of your 30 strong mob of boyz

come on! you get bonus's for the boyz that aren't fighting

hmm, comparing your 250 pt bloodthirster to a 41 pt nob/pk doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I'd be willing to challenge your bloodthirster with Ghazzy on the charge....

....I think you both missed the point I am trying to reinforce, which was made by Ghengis John earlier in the thread.

I'll quote it so you two can reread it-

Ghengis Jon wrote:Also, invoking and accepting challenges is a strategy all of its own. I never accept a challenge when I know my Boyz will mop up whatever I am facing

P.S you think your ork mob is going to stay 30 strong before I assault it?

text removed.
Reds8n

 Jihallah wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:
Challenge my bloodthirster with the nob of your 30 strong mob of boyz

come on! you get bonus's for the boyz that aren't fighting

You play daemons? How quaint

But for him I'd let you assault me and take my 60 snap shots. I'm not sure what kind of upgrades you can give him but gw says he has 4 wounds with a 4+ save. so first I'd snap shot you, then I'd decline the charge (or stay out of range) then let the other 29 boys finish you off in CC. Heck if nothing else the boys should keep it occupied for the rest of the game.

P.S you think your ork mob is going to stay 30 strong before I assault it?

well you stated nob & 30 boys, so I went with those numbers.
I don't know anyone who plays daemons, I've never seen them played by anyone so I have no idea what they do. hence the joke of quaint
I got and agree with ghengis point, that's why I suggested keeping the nob where he couldn't be challenged.

So based on the numbers you provided, I stated what I would do in that situation. you said 30 boys, thats 60 snap shots As I didn't have any facts aside from the basic stats GW gives I didn't say anything about how many wounds I could cause.

sirlynchmob wrote:If you can't swing blows you can't issue or accept challenges. pg 64 is really clear on it.

Here's the link. Your position on the subject invalidates the entire challenge system.

ArmageddonBorn wrote:I'm not seeing too many advantages with a big choppa.

One word: Initiative.

At I1 with the klaw, everything in the game that isn't also a power fist has a chance to take down the nob before he even gets a chance to swing. If he has a big choppa, he gets to take advantage of this, rather than get taken advantage of - he can swing before any model armed with a powerfist can. Furthermore, he gets to attack simultaneously with I3 power weapons, and he also gets to attack before I2 guys like a necron lord with a warscythe.

Klaws ignore armor, and that still is really nice, and they are better against vehicles (though BCs aren't terrible against them), but in a challenge, I'd take a big choppa over a klaw. There will be some things that you won't be able to beat, but the list of things that you COULD beat with a klaw and CAN'T beat with a big choppa in a challenge is a pretty short list.

Plus, it's really cheap. A nob with a big shoota, big choppa, 'eavy armor, and a bosspole is STILL cheaper than a nob with a klaw and nothing else, and the former seem a lot more useful in general as well.

 Ailaros wrote:

ArmageddonBorn wrote:I'm not seeing too many advantages with a big choppa.

One word: Initiative.

At I1 with the klaw, everything in the game that isn't also a power fist has a chance to take down the nob before he even gets a chance to swing. If he has a big choppa, he gets to take advantage of this, rather than get taken advantage of - he can swing before any model armed with a powerfist can. Furthermore, he gets to attack simultaneously with I3 power weapons, and he also gets to attack before I2 guys like a necron lord with a warscythe.

Klaws ignore armor, and that still is really nice, and they are better against vehicles (though BCs aren't terrible against them), but in a challenge, I'd take a big choppa over a klaw. There will be some things that you won't be able to beat, but the list of things that you COULD beat with a klaw and CAN'T beat with a big choppa in a challenge is a pretty short list.

Uh, you think so? Any power-armored marine with two CCW will probably kill your big choppa nob if the challenge does on for two rounds, while the klaw nob will just kill him. I3 power weapons are really rare, too. I actually can't think of one outside of the IG (which are puny S3) except for a bigmek with a burna.
You also shouldn't ever get in a challenge a necron overlord unless you like punching yourself in the face. I really hate MSS.

Plus, it's really cheap. A nob with a big shoota, big choppa, 'eavy armor, and a bosspole is STILL cheaper than a nob with a klaw and nothing else, and the former seem a lot more useful in general as well.

What's even cheaper is not taking the big choppa. Almost every one of your arguments also works for just slugga+choppa. Against vehicles you are still S5, and boyz wreck anything with rear armor 10 anyways.

 Jidmah wrote:

Any power-armored marine with two CCW will probably kill your big choppa nob if the challenge does on for two rounds, while the klaw nob will just kill him. I3 power weapons are really rare, too. I actually can't think of one outside of the IG (which are puny S3) except for a bigmek with a burna.

This is my point exactly - since I was asking about MEQ and TEQ, and not an all comers list. The idea was to take a nob w/pk, suffer through the sergeant's higher initiative attack, then off him on the first round of the challenge.

 Ailaros wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:If you can't swing blows you can't issue or accept challenges. pg 64 is really clear on it.

Here's the link. Your position on the subject invalidates the entire challenge system.

Only if you totally ignore what page 21 is saying. Challenges work fine, and pg 64 says if you're not engaged you can not accept or issue challengtes. You should read what I posted on that thread again.

There really is no need to discuss this in a total of four ork threads now. As far as tactics are concerned it's safe to say that the issue of keeping nobz out of challenges is contested - and even if possible, it's not guaranteed to work anyways.