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News Flash!

From 2013 all GW miniatures will have an rfid tag embedded somewhere in the model.

All models will be scanned at our HHHobby Centres before any gaming commences. Any models failing the scan will be confiscated as fakes and destroyed.

Obviously older, official, miniatures will not have the tag, and so will need to be replaced with newer finescan originals. We appreciate the impact this may have on our loyal and valued customers, so for the initial week from launch we will only increase prices by 317% to cover the cost of the new finescan technology.

After the initial promotion prices will stabilise at a very reasonable 500% of today's prices, which I'm sure our loyal fans will appreciate is still very reasonable pricing for the peace of mind that their models are the genuine articles.

Holy crap FineScan. I love it.

Forge World was being cast in China at one point, yes. A large quantity of the range was.

China was approached for manufacturing GW models. By all accounts, GW pulled out.

Yes, a batch of my Elysians are from China and sold by FW, the kicker is, best batch of casting to date. Space Hulk was also done in China.

Charax wrote:
By the same token shouldn't I always buy direct from GW so they get the whole price of whatever I buy rather than a FLGS or online retailer taking a cut?

No. GW's sales through FLGS or online retailers are legal. GW has willingly accepted a lower cut of the sales in exchange for allowing the third-party seller to pay the costs of shelf space, marketing, etc. While there's something to be said for "buy where you play", there's certainly nothing unethical about buying through any legal seller of GW's products.

This is NOT the same as buying from a recaster that steals GW's work and sells illegal copies of it.

Here, the differences are quite minor (the casting medium, the fact it's being sold from China, the fact it's not GW selling it, the relative obscurity of the recasters) that the only reasons to show loyalty are if one of those very specific differences resonates with you in some way?

And the tiny little difference that the recasters are stealing someone else's work. It's no different than walking into a GW store and stealing a box of space marines off the shelf. Now, this might be ok with you (the popularity of illegal pdfs of GW books demonstrates that it's a common attitude), but don't pretend that we're talking about just another retailer to buy from.

Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

Here is a visual aid:

Just because I don't deal with piracy or sales, can you please explain why recasters that sell copies of GW products are not "stealing" simply because they're selling a copy of a GW product rather than walking into a GW and stealing the model?

The MPAA and RIAA have been able to make a decent case that piracy is theft...

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

3) IP theft is still theft. This isn't someone putting up scans of a book just because they can, it's a case of stealing someone else's work and selling it for your own gain.

Aerethan has a very clear dog in this fight, as it's well-known that he recasts models for his own use.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

I thought GW moved all the model production out of China a while ago...

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

I know for a fact that coolcast has made sales that GW never would have gotten.
Saying that everyone who buys a recast would've bought from GW if the recast wasn't available is naive.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

I thought GW moved all the model production out of China a while ago...

And you think that the company returned the molds and all stock produced?

Companies like Hasbro basically figure on "lost" stock when it comes to producing in China, as mysteriously the machines keep running even when the workers aren't there. It's like they have little elves that churn out action figures that get sold as if they're the real thing...

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

I know for a fact that coolcast has made sales that GW never would have gotten.
Saying that everyone who buys a recast would've bought from GW if the recast wasn't available is naive.

Actually he is correct.

Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

3) IP theft is still theft. This isn't someone putting up scans of a book just because they can, it's a case of stealing someone else's work and selling it for your own gain.

1. FW no longer produces in China, nor does GW. So there isn't some use of official molds for the black market. And honestly, it isn't hard to make molds, so the masters aren't even needed.

2. Loss of sales to competitors is still loss of sales, regardless of the legality of that competition. It is money that GW isn't making because someone else is. It isn't too different from people using PP models for Warhammer, which is also a lost sale.

3. IP is a very new concept. As the CHS case shows, GW's designs may not fall under sculptural art work, and instead as production design, which would make them not protected under UK law. I'm not saying that recasting is legal, or cool, or what have you.

4. I don't really have a dog in this as Kanluwen points out. My only qualm with this is that I was a customer. I don't sell my casts(not that that makes it any less illegal to make them). And honestly if GW wants to sue me they are welcome to. They can have my 93 Cavalier and already bad credit. I don't own any major assets, nor would they ever see a dime from me.


And as has been said, just because I bought a recast doesn't mean I didn't buy from GW. In many cases I bought the recasts because of the price. Do I need an OOP Archaon? No. If GW produced the model still and sold him at market value($50 on ebay) would I buy it from them? Hell no. But at $18 I can afford it, and it'll sit on my shelf until the day I get bored enough to paint it. GW didn't lose a sale there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And you think that the company returned the molds and all stock produced?

Companies like Hasbro basically figure on "lost" stock when it comes to producing in China, as mysteriously the machines keep running even when the workers aren't there. It's like they have little elves that churn out action figures that get sold as if they're the real thing...

I'm not saying that. He said that it was models skimmed off the top of the production line. If they aren't producing in China, they weren't skimmed off the top of the production line. In other words, his statement was incorrect.

Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

Because the purchased models would not have been purchased at GW prices. Guaranteed.

Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

By those standards ebay is lost sales. So fine, if we want to nit pick.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And you think that the company returned the molds and all stock produced?

Companies like Hasbro basically figure on "lost" stock when it comes to producing in China, as mysteriously the machines keep running even when the workers aren't there. It's like they have little elves that churn out action figures that get sold as if they're the real thing...

I'm not saying that. He said that it was models skimmed off the top of the production line. If they aren't producing in China, they weren't skimmed off the top of the production line. In other words, his statement was incorrect.

Except it's not.

There were, as of March, still things being produced in China. Just because production ceased since then does not mean that the machines and molds are not still present, especially since the things being produced in China were plastic kits for the most part.

Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

Because the purchased models would not have been purchased at GW prices. Guaranteed.

Irrelevant. You bought a model produced by them, opting for the illegally produced option rather than the legally produced option.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

No, they didn't lose a sale. No sale of those models from GW ever would have happened.
I might have bought them from eBay, but likely not.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

By those standards ebay is lost sales. So fine, if we want to nit pick.

It is, but if we're going to nitpick...

The company has still been paid for that model.

 Aerethan wrote:
2. Loss of sales to competitors is still loss of sales, regardless of the legality of that competition. It is money that GW isn't making because someone else is. It isn't too different from people using PP models for Warhammer, which is also a lost sale.

Except buying from PP is ALSO legal. Stop comparing legal purchases to illegal ones.

3. IP is a very new concept. As the CHS case shows, GW's designs may not fall under sculptural art work, and instead as production design, which would make them not protected under UK law. I'm not saying that recasting is legal, or cool, or what have you.

Err, no. The CHS case arguably shows that you can make your own designs based on GW's IP, not that you can make a literal copy of GW's work. There's a huge difference between the two.

Do I need an OOP Archaon? No. If GW produced the model still and sold him at market value($50 on ebay) would I buy it from them? Hell no. But at $18 I can afford it, and it'll sit on my shelf until the day I get bored enough to paint it. GW didn't lose a sale there.

Let's not pretend this is about maintaining access to OOP models (a cause I can sympathize with, if the model is genuinely OOP and never coming back). The majority of recast sales are of things GW currently produces.

Boo wah about black markets and counterfeits. Every industry has them, and every company has fan boys who sound the alarm when they find them.

The difference here is that there isn't feth all that GW can realistically do about it beyond having paypal and site registrars slow them down.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There were, as of March, still things being produced in China. Just because production ceased since then does not mean that the machines and molds are not still present, especially since the things being produced in China were plastic kits for the most part.

Right. I'm not disputing that.
Nothing is produced there currently. Therefore nothing sold from there is "skimmed" from GW's current production. Which is what Peregrine said.

Let's not pretend this is about maintaining access to OOP models (a cause I can sympathize with, if the model is genuinely OOP and never coming back). The majority of recast sales are of things GW currently produces.

Did you see the metal models that coolcast offered? every one of them was OOP.

So now you have moral relativism. It's ok to recast something that GW stopped selling, but not current products?

It's not my fault GW released LE models that look insanely better than the production ones.

And with the destruction of the Bitz service, they opened themselves up to a crap ton of lost sales. GW could very well stem the tide of piracy on their products, but instead they probably ignore it like they do every other model company.

 Aerethan wrote:
Did you see the metal models that coolcast offered? every one of them was OOP.

No, since I hadn't seen that particular site before it was posted here, and the context was FW recasts, not OOP recasts.

So now you have moral relativism. It's ok to recast something that GW stopped selling, but not current products?

It's not entirely ok, but it's less obviously wrong if you're talking about a product that will never be sold by the original producer, assuming you'd be willing to buy a legitimate one if it was sold again. And no, it isn't moral relativism because the situations are completely different.

And with the destruction of the Bitz service, they opened themselves up to a crap ton of lost sales. GW could very well stem the tide of piracy on their products, but instead they probably ignore it like they do every other model company.

How exactly can GW stop piracy? If people are willing to buy illegal copies of GW products there's no way GW can stop it, since it's very hard to sell at that kind of discount when you have to deal with minimum wage, workplace safety laws, artists who expect to be paid for their work, etc. Don't try to blame GW for your willingness to support IP theft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aerethan wrote:
Boo wah about black markets and counterfeits. Every industry has them, and every company has fan boys who sound the alarm when they find them.

So because theft is common we should just ignore it?

GW could quit discontinuing items that apparently still have a demand.

And metal models are still viable for the older pieces. Have you seen what an Empire Grandmaster costs now? In metal it was $15 which was high for old sculpts that are single piece models. Now in Finecast they are $29, same sculpts cheaper medium, slightly more work.

No one asked for Finecast, no one wants it in the form it's at.

So for those, yes GW could stop it.

And let's not pretend like GW is strapped for profit once they've paid the bills. The business is run by what appear to be 5 year olds with no concept of long term viability. They squeeze every penny they can out of the market, and expect stupid fast turnaround on their customer base.

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's not pretend this is about maintaining access to OOP models (a cause I can sympathize with, if the model is genuinely OOP and never coming back). The majority of recast sales are of things GW currently produces.

Peregrine, I am shocked. We have found common ground

The only items I feel no qualms about purchasing are items that are out of production. That's my personal line, I understand everyone has different ones.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I wonder if they'll move into the recasting of finecast and if so, whether they will have a better quality control than GW?

They'd have to get a perfect finecast cast to mould their recasts off of. So no, it ain't gonna happen. /snide

But they might get a finecast model, properly fix it with putty and then make moulds of that, producing a higher quality product in metal than the original finecast. A friend of mine bought some of the new necron finecast releases in metal off of ebay and they were way, way better than GW's crap.

As for legality, China is not a western democracy. I don't believe the sellers are actually violating any Chinese laws. Whether or not importing goods you know to be counterfeit for personal use is a crime will vary based on your jurisdiction.

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

Technically it is counterfitting, not piracy. Still, the end result is the same. Did GW/FW get any money for the figure you purchased? If you had bought a legitimate figure, even on the secondary market, they would have. If you bought a counterfit figure then they did not. You could say that it is the guys doing the counterfitting who are guilty of stealing money from GW, but by buying those counterfit products you are complicit in the act. Also, the US and UK have laws in place regarding counterfit of physical goods so don't think your file-sharing analogy will help you if you wind up in court.

Yeah, they're just dodging GW again. There is something wrong with your business model when a hobbit has acceptable knock offs. I look forward to finding them yet again.

Heh, i always miss these places