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 LunaHound wrote:

Sining wrote:
As someone who works for a company that owns a factory in shenyang, china, this isn't true -_- I think you're thinking of malaysia, where they used to require you to have a local citizen be the majority shareholder.

Hi Sining, can you tell dakka abit about what you know about the chinese counterfeit garage kit makers, and other pvc figures?
like how common it is, whether its easy for them, and how long they have been doing these kind of things.

Thanks :']

Sorry, I'm in a totally different industry. -_- But if they're anything like the industry I work in, they're probably quite good at copying things once they get an actual sample of them without needing the original casts or anything.

The legal side of things says it's illegal to sell counterfeits or knockoffs, and I believe it's "legal" to buy them if you didn't know you were doing so... Anyone buying from these chinese recasters are well aware of what they're getting their hands on.

12thRonin wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

Costly models are not illegal. Knockoff recast clones of said costly models are illegal. End of.

Continuing to say this doesn't make it correct. Buying them is not illegal.

Purchase and ownership of known counterfeit goods is in fact illegal in the US. That said, I'd imagine the penalty for illegal toy soldiers to be rather minimal.

Now for me, since I recast anyway, that action is more severe than simply owning fake goods, so I've got bigger things to worry about if people start kicking down my door screaming "WHERE ARE THE FAKE TOY SOLDIERS!?".

Actually, if I could find metal casts of the newer finecast-only models, I'd definitely be tempted to purchase them. I've had a hideous experience with finecast product, which has resulted in some "free" models, but the "free" replacements were flawed as well, just not as much.

I didn't have the patience to be like that Golden Demon Winner guy who kept asking for (and getting) replacement figures, nor do I believe I have the "pull" or rep as he does to have them actually continue to supply me with reps, so I did what they want and expect us to do (just give up) except I've also done what they don't want people to do (give up on buying the Finecast product entirely, because it's gak).

So yeah, the newer sculpts as metal recasts, I'd probably buy them.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The legal side of things says it's illegal to sell counterfeits or knockoffs, and I believe it's "legal" to buy them if you didn't know you were doing so... Anyone buying from these chinese recasters are well aware of what they're getting their hands on.

Which again, Coolcast did all their stuff in yellow/tan resin like the old Armorcast stuff. The Russians and a few people in Hong Kong do FW grey.

And even if you don't know that goods are counterfeit, they can be confiscated without compensation.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
The legal side of things says it's illegal to sell counterfeits or knockoffs, and I believe it's "legal" to buy them if you didn't know you were doing so... Anyone buying from these chinese recasters are well aware of what they're getting their hands on.

Which again, Coolcast did all their stuff in yellow/tan resin like the old Armorcast stuff. The Russians and a few people in Hong Kong do FW grey.

And even if you don't know that goods are counterfeit, they can be confiscated without compensation.

Yeah, sorry :( Should have added that you're still likely to see the removal of your counterfeit stuff... I'm not sure how current the law is, but there was an article in the NY Times that states the US allows people to bring 1 counterfeit product into the country of each category of goods you can bring in... But again, I'm not sure if that has changed.

In the end though, it's still a no no..

 Aerethan wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

Costly models are not illegal. Knockoff recast clones of said costly models are illegal. End of.

Continuing to say this doesn't make it correct. Buying them is not illegal.

Purchase and ownership of known counterfeit goods is in fact illegal in the US. That said, I'd imagine the penalty for illegal toy soldiers to be rather minimal.

Now for me, since I recast anyway, that action is more severe than simply owning fake goods, so I've got bigger things to worry about if people start kicking down my door screaming "WHERE ARE THE FAKE TOY SOLDIERS!?".

In fact, buying knockoffs or fakes is not illegal.

Actually, their last financial report stated that Finecast actually costs more to manufacture than metal.

The process of Finecast costs more than metal, the raw material does not.

GW had to purchase new machines for Finecast but they (AFAIK) function similarly to metal Nicem machines, but with a heater built in. They also would have had to purchase new resin mixers to deliver the Finecast resin into the mold. Those cost about $10,000 each (for cheap ones) and they'd need one of those for each casting station. Last time I was in Lenton they had 6 casting stations (that I saw).

Finecast models also have a large sprue which takes up space on the mold; so you get less cavities per mold which means less yield per spin than metal and longer casting times to complete an order. Finecast molds also take longer to make than molds for metal and have a shorter life span so you wind up making more molds than you would for metal. That's mostly because GW aren't using the right type of mold material though. The chemicals in th eresin are attacking the surface of the molds deteriorating them faster. That's why they should be using a release agent for casting.

You'd also need more molds to compensate for the lower yield and the apparent high miscast rate Finecast has, which I was told was around 60% (that's before it hits the packing dept).

The casting cycle time is also a bit longer than metal. That's what the heaters in the machines are for, they kick start the curing process so the resin cures faster. But most resins that would be needed to fill models like that would have a cure time of at least 1-2 minutes, any faster they would cure too quickly before the cavities were filled. Metal casting cycles are about 20-30 seconds per spin.

So when GW says Finecast costs more than metal they mean more than just material costs.

Since when does "likely" mean "definitely"?

More importantly, that article talks exclusively about hand bags, which very well may have their own laws about ownership since it is such a widespread type of counterfeit.

Knowingly owning counterfeit currency is super illegal, so your argument doesn't really work there. And they most certainly don't replace that.

And all counterfeit goods can and often will be seized by law enforcement as evidence against the seller or maker.

 Aerethan wrote:
Since when does "likely" mean "definitely"?

More importantly, that article talks exclusively about hand bags, which very well may have their own laws about ownership since it is such a widespread type of counterfeit.

Knowingly owning counterfeit currency is super illegal, so your argument doesn't really work there. And they most certainly don't replace that.

And all counterfeit goods can and often will be seized by law enforcement as evidence against the seller or maker.

The reason why I said likely is because of the article I had read mentioned something about the US letting people bring 1 counterfeit item per category... let me see if I can find it... Like I had said, I don't know how the law is currently states, all I know is that selling counterfeits and knockoffs is illegal...

Edit: This article, I read it last week or so while reading this thread. http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/the-legality-of-buying-knockoffs/

Drat. I last bought stuff from these guys when they were Miniatureshobbies.com - apparently they went through a few iterations since then. Time to trawl the interwebs.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Since when does "likely" mean "definitely"?

More importantly, that article talks exclusively about hand bags, which very well may have their own laws about ownership since it is such a widespread type of counterfeit.

Knowingly owning counterfeit currency is super illegal, so your argument doesn't really work there. And they most certainly don't replace that.

And all counterfeit goods can and often will be seized by law enforcement as evidence against the seller or maker.

The reason why I said likely is because of the article I had read mentioned something about the US letting people bring 1 counterfeit item per category... let me see if I can find it... Like I had said, I don't know how the law is currently states, all I know is that selling counterfeits and knockoffs is illegal...

Edit: This article, I read it last week or so while reading this thread. http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/the-legality-of-buying-knockoffs/

Apologies, I should have quoted the post I was replying to.

My response was to the link shown a few posts up saying that buying fakes isn't illegal.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Also they may come with lots of 'options' but I regularly read complaints that they don't include the options people actually want. All the popular weapons are in short supply in boxes which is the very reason that people look to third party producers to get the bits that they wish GW had put in the box instead of the heap of unwanted alternative parts. It's not like this isn't GW's fault, they design the kits and write the rules so there's little excuse for the two not dovetailing.

Unless GW rules writers don't really understand how their rules will actually work when they get out into the gaming population. There has been much evidence of this lack of understanding in every edition of 40K...

Tim

timd wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Also they may come with lots of 'options' but I regularly read complaints that they don't include the options people actually want. All the popular weapons are in short supply in boxes which is the very reason that people look to third party producers to get the bits that they wish GW had put in the box instead of the heap of unwanted alternative parts. It's not like this isn't GW's fault, they design the kits and write the rules so there's little excuse for the two not dovetailing.

Unless GW rules writers don't really understand how their rules will actually work when they get out into the gaming population. There has been much evidence of this lack of understanding in every edition of 40K...

Tim

Gw do not acknowledge competitive player builds, if they do they are dismissive, hence why you wont get 3 melta or plasma in your guard box for vets or right and left arm autocannons for riflemen dreads etc.

That their rule allow for optimised builds is probably by coincidence.

Caveat Emptor!

 Mr. Burning wrote:

timd wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Also they may come with lots of 'options' but I regularly read complaints that they don't include the options people actually want. All the popular weapons are in short supply in boxes which is the very reason that people look to third party producers to get the bits that they wish GW had put in the box instead of the heap of unwanted alternative parts. It's not like this isn't GW's fault, they design the kits and write the rules so there's little excuse for the two not dovetailing.

Unless GW rules writers don't really understand how their rules will actually work when they get out into the gaming population. There has been much evidence of this lack of understanding in every edition of 40K...

Tim

Gw do not acknowledge competitive player builds, if they do they are dismissive, hence why you wont get 3 melta or plasma in your guard box for vets or right and left arm autocannons for riflemen dreads etc.

That their rule allow for optimised builds is probably by coincidence.

Caveat Emptor!

Which shows that they are ignorant of the rampant imbalance in their game.

The only game that has no optimized builds are those where both sides have the exact same pieces: chess, checkers, tic-tac-toe etc. The day you release an army with options, there will be an optimized build for it.

And I call BS on that policy, because GW is known for making flavor of the month models have overpowered rules in order to sell more models. In some cases the entire codex is overpowered in order to sell it more. That isn't coincidence at this point, it's policy.

I honestly can't believe so many people are happy, if not enthusiastic, about killing Games Workshop.


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 Aerethan wrote:

And I call BS on that policy, because GW is known for making flavor of the month models have overpowered rules in order to sell more models. In some cases the entire codex is overpowered in order to sell it more. That isn't coincidence at this point, it's policy.

Except...wouldn't all codexes be OP if that were the case?

And wouldn't the most OP codex be the most expensive one? Is that way blob guard is so powerful and Draigowing is so weak? Just grow up, GW are a company and they want to make money, like all companies. You are buying counterfeit goods, which damages them.

I'm not one for judging but don't pretend that you are doing anything other than actively and consciously damaging everyone's hobby.

 Testify wrote:

I'm not one for judging but don't pretend that you are doing anything other than actively and consciously damaging everyone's hobby.

First, GW isn't a "hobby", despite what they might tell you.

Secondly, don't be so dramatic. Me buying my little toy soldiers from a recaster has the same financial impact on GW as me just buying any other 3rd party models. It's a sale they didn't get, because of the lack of availability or the price of the items.

Honestly, if GW still had the bits service I'd have ordered most of my recasts through it if they were available.

GW could theoretically even offer plastic bits service since the plastic that doesn't sell can be ground up and used again. I'm not aware of any major degradation of HIPS from being recycled.

As for FW, their quality versus price is where I have issue. The casts I got from china are impeccable. How many horror stories are there of FW items being warped or just poorly cast? Why would I pay the premium price for what equates to amateur production quality? Their designs might be worth the money, but their final product generally isn't.

Also, China gives me free shipping on anything over $25 and they don't charge me(as US citizen and buyer) VAT. So there's that.

FW is, as those Brits say, taking the piss/biscuit or whatever else it is that people take when overcharging for things.

 Aerethan wrote:
Since when does "likely" mean "definitely"?

Everything in the law is likely. There's no such thing as definitely.

More importantly, that article talks exclusively about hand bags, which very well may have their own laws about ownership since it is such a widespread type of counterfeit.

Knock offs are knock offs.

Knowingly owning counterfeit currency is super illegal, so your argument doesn't really work there. And they most certainly don't replace that.

I must have missed when GW products became legal tender.

And all counterfeit goods can and often will be seized by law enforcement as evidence against the seller or maker.

Not usually from the owner unless they have committed a crime. The seller, yeah.

Rather than the morality and legality of consciously seeking out and buying counterfeit models, isn't the real discussion here that a small backroom operation in China without access to the original moulds and sculpts, is apparently turning out higher quality product than the self confessed premium brand in the table top wargaming hobby?

If you're charging a premium for an inferior product then youre asking for trouble.

 azreal13 wrote:
Rather than the morality and legality of consciously seeking out and buying counterfeit models, isn't the real discussion here that a small backroom operation in China without access to the original moulds and sculpts, is apparently turning out higher quality product than the self confessed premium brand in the table top wargaming hobby?

I'd be very surprised if a backroom in China was capable of out-producing, in quality or quantity, the manufacturing process of a modern developed factory in the first world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aerethan wrote:

 Testify wrote:

I'm not one for judging but don't pretend that you are doing anything other than actively and consciously damaging everyone's hobby.

First, GW isn't a "hobby", despite what they might tell you.

Secondly, don't be so dramatic. Me buying my little toy soldiers from a recaster has the same financial impact on GW as me just buying any other 3rd party models. It's a sale they didn't get, because of the lack of availability or the price of the items.

GW is a hobby.

hob·by/ˈhäbē/
Noun:
An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

3rd party sellers still buy from GW. A dude making them illegally in China is not, that's a very obvious difference.

 Testify wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Rather than the morality and legality of consciously seeking out and buying counterfeit models, isn't the real discussion here that a small backroom operation in China without access to the original moulds and sculpts, is apparently turning out higher quality product than the self confessed premium brand in the table top wargaming hobby?

I'd be very surprised if a backroom in China was capable of out-producing, in quality or quantity, the manufacturing process of a modern developed factory in the first world.

In quantity no doubt, but people posting in this thread who have bought product from both sources are saying the quality is excellent.

GW is a company. They are not a hobby in and of themselves.

They are a sect of the scale model and tabletop wargames hobbies.

And I don't mean buying GW models from an LGS. Me buying recast termie heads is financially the same to GW as me buying Scibor heads to use instead.


And by your standards, FW is a backroom in China or less, since Coolcast parts were worlds better than any FW i've handled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Rather than the morality and legality of consciously seeking out and buying counterfeit models, isn't the real discussion here that a small backroom operation in China without access to the original moulds and sculpts, is apparently turning out higher quality product than the self confessed premium brand in the table top wargaming hobby?

I'd be very surprised if a backroom in China was capable of out-producing, in quality or quantity, the manufacturing process of a modern developed factory in the first world.

In quantity no doubt, but people posting in this thread who have bought product from both sources are saying the quality is excellent.

I'd post pictures to that end if it were allowed, but it is not. Coolcast and those in Russia are cranking out pretty damn good quality casts.

 azreal13 wrote:
Rather than the morality and legality of consciously seeking out and buying counterfeit models, isn't the real discussion here that a small backroom operation in China without access to the original moulds and sculpts, is apparently turning out higher quality product than the self confessed premium brand in the table top wargaming hobby?

If you're charging a premium for an inferior product then youre asking for trouble.

I don't know why people insist on calling these Chinese counterfeiters "small backroom operations".

There's nothing "small" about them. They're an industry unto themselves, usually operating out of a manufacturing plant and using its employees/resources.

 Aerethan wrote:
GW is a company. They are not a hobby in and of themselves.

They are a sect of the scale model and tabletop wargames hobbies.

GW is a hobby. It means you collect Warhammer/Warhammer 40k/Lord of the Rings. Please don't try to definie my and my friend's hobbies by lumping us in with the worst kind of neckbeards.

 Aerethan wrote:

And I don't mean buying GW models from an LGS. Me buying recast termie heads is financially the same to GW as me buying Scibor heads to use instead.

Good for you. It's still killing the hobby, feel good about that?

 Aerethan wrote:

And by your standards, FW is a backroom in China or less, since Coolcast parts were worlds better than any FW i've handled.

Weird, you'd think they'd start exporting to the west en masse. Clearly you're missing an opportunity to exploit this incredible quality of manufacturing.

Actually, didn't GW shut a factory in China?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

In quantity no doubt, but people posting in this thread who have bought product from both sources are saying the quality is excellent.

I don't trust the internet on this in the slightest. Anything that makes GW seem incompetent or gak, they will argue until they're blue in the face about.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Rather than the morality and legality of consciously seeking out and buying counterfeit models, isn't the real discussion here that a small backroom operation in China without access to the original moulds and sculpts, is apparently turning out higher quality product than the self confessed premium brand in the table top wargaming hobby?

If you're charging a premium for an inferior product then youre asking for trouble.

I don't know why people insist on calling these Chinese counterfeiters "small backroom operations".

There's nothing "small" about them. They're an industry unto themselves, usually operating out of a manufacturing plant and using its employees/resources.

I guess my perception is based on they are effectively a niche within a niche within a further niche, but I guess my mental picture is probably a tad naive.

I think a lot of people are missing the point that there's no "couple people in a backroom" in China. It's a widespread industry, and those Chinese recasters have more employees, more experience, better equipment, better quality control, better shipping rates, and better product than GW/FW.

I just bought my first Finecast model (Sammael on Jetbike) a couple days ago (have been into GW since Space Hulk 1st edition and 40k 2nd edition). Showed it to several of my friends who have also been into GW for a long time but also avoided buying Finecast. We all agreed, feth GW. Period. The quality of the material is horrible and every_single_sprue in the box was horribly warped and covered in flash. No self-respecting company who had any care for it's customers would ever release this garbage for $47. Anyone who believes that model is a "good value" or "high quality" is insane. If given the option, I would not hesitate to buy a high-quality, better cast version of the same model from someone else for half the price. I do NOT want to support a company who thinks of it's customer base so poorly. Barf.

 Testify wrote:

I honestly can't believe so many people are happy, if not enthusiastic, about killing Games Workshop.

Really? It's not really any different than all the people that would like to see big oil companies, Microsoft, Apple, (basically any big business that is seen as ripping it's customers off) do poorly. Also, if that is actually killing Games Workshop, then they failed to adapt. They have massive amounts of resources (for the world TTWG) and dominant market visibilty, if they can't compete, I'm not going to shed a tear over them.

 Testify wrote:

I'm not one for judging but don't pretend that you are doing anything other than actively and consciously damaging everyone's hobby.

Not everyone's hobby, though perhaps you meant everyone's "Hobby". Unless of course he's making recasts of all the various figures that exist beyond GW, but that seems like alot of work, for what becomes quickly diminishing gains once you get away from GW prices I imagine.

 Testify wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

And I don't mean buying GW models from an LGS. Me buying recast termie heads is financially the same to GW as me buying Scibor heads to use instead.

Good for you. It's still killing the hobby, feel good about that?

So you believe that if I have $10, and I will either spend $10 on recast Terminator heads or Scibor heads, or $10 on some sandwiches... then if I spend that $10 on recast Terminator or Scibor heads, I have actively participated in the killing of the hobby of all miniatures/tabletop gaming.

 Testify wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
GW is a company. They are not a hobby in and of themselves.

They are a sect of the scale model and tabletop wargames hobbies.

GW is a hobby. It means you collect Warhammer/Warhammer 40k/Lord of the Rings. Please don't try to definie my and my friend's hobbies by lumping us in with the worst kind of neckbeards.

 Aerethan wrote:

And I don't mean buying GW models from an LGS. Me buying recast termie heads is financially the same to GW as me buying Scibor heads to use instead.

Good for you. It's still killing the hobby, feel good about that?

 Aerethan wrote:

And by your standards, FW is a backroom in China or less, since Coolcast parts were worlds better than any FW i've handled.

Weird, you'd think they'd start exporting to the west en masse. Clearly you're missing an opportunity to exploit this incredible quality of manufacturing.

Actually, didn't GW shut a factory in China?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And your inability to accept facts about GW shows your bias and blind loyalty. But no, you're right, finecast is a huge success and is the pinnacle of model making technology, and we should be grateful that GW even lets us buy it at all.

 azreal13 wrote:

In quantity no doubt, but people posting in this thread who have bought product from both sources are saying the quality is excellent.

I don't trust the internet on this in the slightest. Anything that makes GW seem incompetent or gak, they will argue until they're blue in the face about.

This reeks of elitism. Just because you don't want to be associated with tabletop gaming doesn't mean gak. You play a tabletop game of 28mm models. That is tabletop gaming. GW is a company not a hobby. Unless your hobby is you running GW. Then it could be a hobby.

If you play any video game, it lumps you in with "gamers" in general, whether you like it or not. Your elitist attitude that GW players somehow are never neckbeards as well is appalling.

And me buying from another company isn't killing wargaming by any stretch of the imagination. But then your definition of "hobby" is GW, so what you are saying is that my recasts are killing GW, a company that isn't exactly dying(yet). And if/when GW dies, it 100% won't be from the black market of toy soldiers. It will be from their inability to sustain a viable business plan, or to even implement a viable business plan to begin with.

Buying out side of GW doesn't kill crap, it promotes more options. GW has a large monopoly, that is causing a price vacuum that mini players come to terms with. Which also effectively is causing other companies to have the same prices. I demand competition. If GW cant compete with CHINA, then CHINA is my new supplier.



profile pic: Deal with it.
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