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Evening Dakka!

So, I've been playing 40k for about a year now (exciting, right?) as the jack-of-all trades Vanilla Marines.

I've really got a handle on most of the FOC...except for the Heavy Support slots.

I look at what is available..then look again...and then see how much everything costs points wise...and then don't know where to go from there.

Predators seem decent for anti-infantry dakka, but get expensive when kitted for anti-tank.

Vindicators seem great except their range is that of a SB.

Devastators are decent at low points, but as we go up, it sure seems to get way too expensive.

Landraiders: no doubt the king of the play ground but 75+ dollars for one is REALLY pushing it for me.


What do you guys think? What Heavy Support units have you fielded and had success with, are more situational, and are not so great?

Thanks!
Scrabblez

Oh crap i misread c:sm

scrabblez wrote:
Evening Dakka!

So, I've been playing 40k for about a year now (exciting, right?) as the jack-of-all trades Vanilla Marines.

I've really got a handle on most of the FOC...except for the Heavy Support slots.

I look at what is available..then look again...and then see how much everything costs points wise...and then don't know where to go from there.

Predators seem decent for anti-infantry dakka, but get expensive when kitted for anti-tank.

Vindicators seem great except their range is that of a SB.

Devastators are decent at low points, but as we go up, it sure seems to get way too expensive.

Landraiders: no doubt the king of the play ground but 75+ dollars for one is REALLY pushing it for me.


What do you guys think? What Heavy Support units have you fielded and had success with, are more situational, and are not so great?

Thanks!
Scrabblez

Within reason, any HS can be adaptable or be balanced to any situation. Take for example a predator, your can kit it with HBs and an AC if ork/nids are giving you trouble. The tri-las pred. hunts tanks, which i can do a decent job at(s9 AP2, + one is TL). Kit mixes are designed to balance anti-infantry with ant-armor. A good example is a auto-pred w/ lascannon sponsons is deent at hurting both infantry and tanks. The same can go for a las pred w/ HBs if theres more infantry than tanks, especially if they are nids.

wolfmerc wrote:
Im a chaos player and have been playing in 5th and 6th, I've gone with havocs recently and played a couple matches with them, they are effective at killing infantry with autocannons, BUT they can also take flak missles which regular ole marines cant take, so they are an actual aa option, considering you dont want to snap shot on aircraft that can ruin your day. Also i've heard from people that forgefiends are monsters when it comes to range and fire power on the battle field, considering I don't have bottomless pockets, and i dont want to spend 66 dollars on something im not sure about, this is coming from other people.

He's talking about Codex Space Marines...

As for the OP, the best HS choice for Vanilla are Thunderfire Cannons, only 100pts but the amount of fire power is amazing!

Devastators are just to costly, the same as everyone elses but more expensive point wise....

Vindicators are decent, if your more pf an aggressive player

Predators are good as well, i'd would deck them out with las sponsons and keep the auto cannon, makes it so it can deal with infantry and light vehicles with ease

Land Raiders are good as always but yes both expensive point wise and money wise...

Whirlwinds arn't terrible just not worth taking unless you fight a lot of hoard armies

Cronos is a ajor point sink... Never use him ever!

and lastly you can always take a MotF to make dreads HS and take a bunch of riflemans (dreads with dual autocannons) or ironclads in drop pods

I hear you on the Heavy Support being expensive points wise and real dollar-wise. I can't bring myself to shell out $100 or more for tanks and it seems that when you take one tank you need to take two or three.

I run Devastators because I like them fluff-wise and I like running infantry. They are a bit hefty points wise but I run a 7 man squad with 3xML/1xLC for 202pts. The sergeant gives a BS5 signum to the LC and three missiles tacked onto that makes them good for any target from infantry mobs to heavy armor.

They can put 3 missiles and a LC downrange every turn from the safety of good cover, they have three ablative wounds (which I can increase for 16pts a pop when I have leftover points), can't be shaken or stunned, and they aren't so imposing compared to the rest of my list that the opponent can't ignore them when my other units are being scary.

Their big downside is mobility and the fact that an unlucky few plasma cannon hits can really wipe the squad. This can be mitigated with good cover and spacing and more importantly, there is no unit, armored or otherwise, that won't suffer from a few unlucky hits/dice rolls with the right weapon so it's kind of a moot point.


With all the other options Codex Marines have to get special weapons into a list, I've never felt like I was lacking in the big guns department by only having the one Heavy Support slot.

wolfmerc wrote:
Oh crap i misread c:sm

Haha, it's all good. I've made the mistake plenty of times myself!

ace101 wrote:Within reason, any HS can be adaptable or be balanced to any situation. Take for example a predator, your can kit it with HBs and an AC if ork/nids are giving you trouble. The tri-las pred. hunts tanks, which i can do a decent job at(s9 AP2, + one is TL). Kit mixes are designed to balance anti-infantry with ant-armor. A good example is a auto-pred w/ lascannon sponsons is deent at hurting both infantry and tanks. The same can go for a las pred w/ HBs if theres more infantry than tanks, especially if they are nids.

Hmmm, I like the thought of Preds being kitted out to do double duty at a reasonable cost points wise. Either config allows it to target infantry and tanks, just one stronger on one side than the other.

Riddick40k wrote:

He's talking about Codex Space Marines...

As for the OP, the best HS choice for Vanilla are Thunderfire Cannons, only 100pts but the amount of fire power is amazing!

Devastators are just to costly, the same as everyone elses but more expensive point wise....

Vindicators are decent, if your more pf an aggressive player

Predators are good as well, i'd would deck them out with las sponsons and keep the auto cannon, makes it so it can deal with infantry and light vehicles with ease

Land Raiders are good as always but yes both expensive point wise and money wise...

Whirlwinds arn't terrible just not worth taking unless you fight a lot of hoard armies

Cronos is a ajor point sink... Never use him ever!

and lastly you can always take a MotF to make dreads HS and take a bunch of riflemans (dreads with dual autocannons) or ironclads in drop pods

I hear the TFC is good choice. The free tech marine seems to make it all the more worthwhile and the points cost is just lovely.

If I owned more dreads I might do the riflemans and ironclads build. Problem is, I freaking HATE putting drop pods together (long story behind that one). I do hear though that a Mechanicum army like that is both fluffy and terrifying. I'll have to give it a look!

UltraTacSgt wrote:
I hear you on the Heavy Support being expensive points wise and real dollar-wise. I can't bring myself to shell out $100 or more for tanks and it seems that when you take one tank you need to take two or three.

I run Devastators because I like them fluff-wise and I like running infantry. They are a bit hefty points wise but I run a 7 man squad with 3xML/1xLC for 202pts. The sergeant gives a BS5 signum to the LC and three missiles tacked onto that makes them good for any target from infantry mobs to heavy armor.

They can put 3 missiles and a LC downrange every turn from the safety of good cover, they have three ablative wounds (which I can increase for 16pts a pop when I have leftover points), can't be shaken or stunned, and they aren't so imposing compared to the rest of my list that the opponent can't ignore them when my other units are being scary.

Their big downside is mobility and the fact that an unlucky few plasma cannon hits can really wipe the squad. This can be mitigated with good cover and spacing and more importantly, there is no unit, armored or otherwise, that won't suffer from a few unlucky hits/dice rolls with the right weapon so it's kind of a moot point.


With all the other options Codex Marines have to get special weapons into a list, I've never felt like I was lacking in the big guns department by only having the one Heavy Support slot.

I've been fiddling around with some dev stuff at lower point games, typically 1000 or less and they do give me a slight edge I've noticed. As the points go up though, they typically start to diminish in returns I've seen :S.

I honestly believe that vindicators got a buff in 6th edition...albeit a minor one. the fact that glances will no longer prevent you from firing your guns is a life saver if you only take a couple the first go around. Generally I field two of them in my army. same cost as a land raider, but man can they dish out the hurt.

If i didn't have a Contemptor, I'd run 2 Vindicators 1 TFC, personally.

Vindicators provide ample deterent for anything S5 or Lower, Terminators deepstriking, hordes of mobs. Good for dealing with bikes. Land Raiders also get wrecked from a single shot out of these puppies - you'll be hard pressed to scatter off a big target like a Land Raider!

the TFC is good for dealing with almost anything - taking away the 2+ cover save of guardsmen in cover is a pretty good thing. S6 Blast templates will also one shot GEQ.

scrabblez wrote:
Predators seem decent for anti-infantry dakka, but get expensive when kitted for anti-tank.

Predators are great. 60 points for an AV 13 box with an AC is great for armor spam. You can kit them out for anti-infantry for cheap, and even with LC sponsons its good for anti-armor. In 6th edition, high armor at range is a lot more durable so these tanks got better by comparision.

scrabblez wrote:
Vindicators seem great except their range is that of a SB.

Who cares! Just drive them up within 12". If you can't shoot at something by turn 2, your doing something wrong. Vindicators also got better because weapon destoyed results are now randomized, so your not always losing your gun with the first 'weapon destroyed' result.

scrabblez wrote:
Devastators are decent at low points, but as we go up, it sure seems to get way too expensive.

Devastators are garbage. If you want them, ally in BA devs or SW long fangs. Heck, even Tau broadsides.

scrabblez wrote:
Landraiders: no doubt the king of the play ground but 75+ dollars for one is REALLY pushing it for me.

Buy one on ebay.

Land raiders are excellent, especially since less people are taking melta guns in their army. A crusader or redeemer can really bring the pain in today's meta.

Don't forget about dreadnoughts that you can bring with a MotF. You can bring up to 6 dreads in one force org. (More if you ally in some)

Some options are better then others, but they all work.

Devs are odd. They are either cheep and fragile (5 man) or expensive and durable (10 man) Finding the balance can be tough. I like them in an anti-infantry role. 2xML, and either 2xHB or PC, depending on points. All ML can also work, or 3xML, 1xLC, using the sarge for a BS5 lascannon shot.

IMHO the Auto/Las pred is the best configuration. Flexible, and only 120 points. The Auto/HB "Dakka" pred is a steal at 85 points and will shred infantry. I hate paying the points for the TLLC turret. Seems a waste to get rid of the AC.

Vindicators got a nice boost in 6th. When you need to blow pie plate sized chunks out of your opponent, this is your go-to tank.

Whirlwinds got some nice tricks as well. Barrage weapons and the new wound allocation rules make them snipers.

So looking at the medium tanks, you have the Auto/Las and the Vindi at ~120 points as general purpose tanks. For 85 points you can pick between a Dakka pred and a whirlwind for anti-horde work. All reasonable from a points POV. Cash to buy is another story.

I hear good things about the TFC, and 6th edition did good things to them on paper. I've never fielded one, so can't offer more then that. Does seem like a good pick if you want to avoid tanks.

I don't think of the LR as a HS pick, but as a terminator transport. I have fielded it empty (which surprised my opponents that tournament) and it does OK as just a gun platform. But you do pay a premium for it, both in points and cash. It does look awesome though, and makes for a nice centerpiece for a mechanized list.

I tend to use one or two predators with autocannons and lascannon sponsons. Then you have a lil bit of anti elite unit firepower and cans till fire all of your weapons for anti tank purposes. Works well for me.

I highly recommend that you proxy some Vindicators and see how they do for you. They are great vehicle killers too now thanks to full strength on a partial hit. You are BS4, a fat template, and pick highest of 2D6 for armor penetration.

Just be aware that a good player will see them for the threat that they are and try to take them out early. Protect their flanks. And nothing is wrong with moving up, popping smoke, and making your opponent send a lot of fire into it. Think of it as drawing fire from the rest of your army.

There's a lot of hate for Devastators. Personally, I like them. I run a 10 man squad w/ 4x ML and combat squad them and they seem to do well.

Yes, the price of NEW Land Raiders are $75. I just bought 2 of them (Redeemer and Vanilla) on Ebay in perfect condition for that same price. LR's are also more dependent on the rest of your list then the other options IMO (250 points alone isn't a good HS choice unless there's something in it)

Preds are a good all around choice, either Dakka Pred or AC w/LC sponsons -- still cheap for either loadout and effective.

In competive play, ie tournaments, you will need both antihorde and antiarmour.

You can take multipurpose here, ie cml, ML devs, typhoons, storm talons.

Or you can take specialists: dakka pred, whirlwind, TFC and HB devs for hordes, pred destructor, MM speeders and ironically combimelta sternguard for armour.

Personally i prefer specialists. They adapt less well yet you know they have a better chance of performing their role that turn and i find it frustrating when a unit fails its job for the turn, especially late in the game.

Having said all that, HS also compliments the rest of your list.

I have used most elements of the nilla HS and they can all be employed effectively. The complexity is also the richness that keeps old school players interested. For example its often the gaming vets, ie those who have outgrown WAAC, who will run fluffy lists, or listsusing models they like.

For a starting nilla player i would say 2 vind and a autolas pred or phobos LR are a solid choice and no brainer to play: choose a scary enemy target and fire. As you develop I would recommend experimenting with other choices, for example 4 plasma cannons in a unit of 8 devestators is excellent fun and will terrify opponents.

Devastators with four missile launchers or four heavy bolters (lascannons and plasma cannons are too expensive, and multi-meltas are too short-ranged) are almost too powerful; Land Raiders are decent but tend to be too many points for most small games; Predators are marvelously durable and have a silly amount of firepower at a reasonable cost (assuming you're fielding a Destructor (autocannon/heavy bolters), the Annihilator (lascannons) can get pricey); Vindicators are situational but powerful if you're planning on getting up-close and personal with heavy infantry units; Whirlwinds aren't all that useful unless you feel like picking up Imperial Armor Aeronautica and using the AA variant (which is decent); and I'm not sufficiently familiar with the proper uses of Thunderfire Cannons to accurately compliment or belittle them beyond saying that four S6 blast templates at 60" range for 100pts seems pretty good to me.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
In competive play, ie tournaments, you will need both antihorde and antiarmour.

You can take multipurpose here, ie cml, ML devs, typhoons, storm talons.

Or you can take specialists: dakka pred, whirlwind, TFC and HB devs for hordes, pred destructor, MM speeders and ironically combimelta sternguard for armour.

Personally i prefer specialists. They adapt less well yet you know they have a better chance of performing their role that turn and i find it frustrating when a unit fails its job for the turn, especially late in the game.

Having said all that, HS also compliments the rest of your list.

I have used most elements of the nilla HS and they can all be employed effectively. The complexity is also the richness that keeps old school players interested. For example its often the gaming vets, ie those who have outgrown WAAC, who will run fluffy lists, or listsusing models they like.

For a starting nilla player i would say 2 vind and a autolas pred or phobos LR are a solid choice and no brainer to play: choose a scary enemy target and fire. As you develop I would recommend experimenting with other choices, for example 4 plasma cannons in a unit of 8 devestators is excellent fun and will terrify opponents.

The problem with running PCs in Devastator squads is that they cost 5x the amount as they do in a tactical squads. If i'm taking 3-4 Tactical Squads in 2000pts, Might as well throw the PCs on them and put the MLs on the Devastators.

I currently run 2 Vindicators and a Contemptor Mortis. Better anti Air than Two Stormtalons for 100pts less.

6th Edition has made me question our Elite Choices (off topic from Heavy Support). TH/SS Terminators aren't super amazing and can easily be bogged down, Sternguard are 30ppm if you give them Combi Weapons, and spending 340~ pts for them + a pod is kind of intense.

And Dreadnoughts... well, Rifleman Dreads can be good if you take them in number. But then a Grey Knight Dread walks over and makes you sad when he slaps yours around with his S8 Autocannons.

If you want Devs, take an SW or BA one, they are much better.
Preds and Vindis are both good for their cost.

Generally speaking you take an LR to transport some kind of CC unit into combat. (Termies, most likely) While they are extremely durable, they arent exactly cost-efficient as gun platforms.

It's all about the rest of your list. If I run a MotF and dread spam that's what the HS is for. If I have decent AT in the rest of the list I grab a TFC/Dev and pred. The Dev use the cover bonus. My list lately have been balanced so I've been running a vindi, TFC and Dev squad. In my meta there's lots of 3+ so I actually pull MLs and PCs.

Thanks for all of the replies.

So, looking it over, I really like the idea of a few preds and vindicators in my list, simply because I run a lot of rhinos/razorbacks to begin with. The way I look at it, two preds and a vindi could draw fire off the rhinos long enough that they can make it up the field and then turn around and dish a lot of damage back out. (delicious pie plates.)

The TFC looks like a solid choice as well, especially if I put it backfield in some ruins with sniper scouts to give everyone stupid good saves with the techmarine.