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If you cast puppet master on a vehicle with multiple weapons, what restrictions do you have on the shooting with the vehicle?

The part that has me confused is if it takes into acount if the vehicle has moved or not. Can you fire all, or just one? If only one, then do you get one more with PotMS, and do smoke launchers affect? Thank you all. I did a serach but did not find anything. I tryed reading the rules but it seems that movement restricting shooting of weapons only check for movement in the current (players) turn.

The restri tions on moving and firing only apply if it movemed in the previous movement phase. As it wont have done (exception: necron SXC letting you DS vehicles in on the oppponents turn) you get to fire everything.

So, for some reason I can't remember if there are any restrictions on simply casting Puppet Master on vehicles at all. Assuming there aren't...

I'm fairly certain that the restrictions on vehicles regarding moving and shooting all use language that goes something like, "If the vehicle moved this turn, etc..."

If that's the case, then the vehicle didn't move at all this turn - its your turn, since you're casting Puppet Master, and those vehicles moved during your opponent's last turn. So unless they somehow moved during your turn, I think they would count as stationary for the purposes of shooting.

I don't know about all the other stuff, as I don't have my rulebook and it probably depends on the specific wording.

Thank you Dracul and Spike Spiegel. I shure hope none contradict us, because this would be just pure gold. :-)

Yeah, this is a good question actually. I intend to try to look up the relevant rules when I get home.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the puppet master rulings say you can only fire one weapon with that unit?

EDIT

"Puppet Master is a focussed witchfire power with a range
of 24".The target immediately makes a shooting attack as if
it was one of your models (this cannot target his own unit).
After resolving the attack, the target shakes free of the Psyker's
conrol and immediately reverts to the owning player's control"

So, one shot, correct?

Juwdah wrote:
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the puppet master rulings say you can only fire one weapon with that unit?

EDIT

"Puppet Master is a focussed witchfire power with a range
of 24".The target immediately makes a shooting attack as if
it was one of your models (this cannot target his own unit).
After resolving the attack, the target shakes free of the Psyker's
conrol and immediately reverts to the owning player's control"

So, one shot, correct?

Looks that way, unless the "attack" has more than 1 shot
Manticore D3
Heavy2-3
Etc.

Yeah, just re-read it and I agree - 1 weapon.

No, making a "shooting attack" means you use any weapons you have, subject to the normal rules for firing weapons - so a normal model could fire 1, a MC 2, and a vehicle potentially all, barring Ordnance

I have yet to find a defenision of a shooting attack in the ruebook.

What prevents you from fiering multiple weapons regulary is the rule found under the weapons secion weapons and "multiple weapons".

Vehicles, MC's and bikes have rules that can overide this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, making a "shooting attack" means you use any weapons you have, subject to the normal rules for firing weapons - so a normal model could fire 1, a MC 2, and a vehicle potentially all, barring Ordnance

So you're saying for example, you hit my Daemon Prince with Puppet Master, I fail my Deny the Witch. The Prince has Bolt of Tzeentch and Daemonic Gaze. You say "I'm going to have your Prince make a shooting attack at that squad of Flamers, and the shooting attack will consist of Bolt and Gaze"

Sound right? If so, I think I agree.

Yes, that is correct.

I'm not sure I agree. I read lots of different sections of the rulebook last night (attacks, shooting, models, etc), and while I could be convinced otherwise, it seems like each weapon being fired is considered "a shooting attack." Don't have my book on me right now, though.

 Tangent wrote:
I'm not sure I agree. I read lots of different sections of the rulebook last night (attacks, shooting, models, etc), and while I could be convinced otherwise, it seems like each weapon being fired is considered "a shooting attack." Don't have my book on me right now, though.

So you're saying a vehicle has multiple shooting attacks because it can fire every weapon it has? That doesn't make any sense. They can fire multiple weapons during their shooting attack but each one is not a shooting attack.

That can be really powerful and wouldn't be surprised to see if FAQ'd. At the same time, since it's a BRB power and there's been a BRB amendment already, I doubt it will be.

 undertow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, making a "shooting attack" means you use any weapons you have, subject to the normal rules for firing weapons - so a normal model could fire 1, a MC 2, and a vehicle potentially all, barring Ordnance

So you're saying for example, you hit my Daemon Prince with Puppet Master, I fail my Deny the Witch. The Prince has Bolt of Tzeentch and Daemonic Gaze. You say "I'm going to have your Prince make a shooting attack at that squad of Flamers, and the shooting attack will consist of Bolt and Gaze"

Sound right? If so, I think I agree.

The chosen thingies sound like psychic powers and therefore would also be restricted by the model's power token pool. Bu I don;t know that much about Daemon Princes

 kcwm wrote:
So you're saying a vehicle has multiple shooting attacks because it can fire every weapon it has? That doesn't make any sense. They can fire multiple weapons during their shooting attack but each one is not a shooting attack.

For one thing, each model doesn't get "a shooting attack" during which it can fire. When the shooting phase arrives, each model can make shooting attacks if it has weapons that are capable of doing so. Nowhere in the rulebook, that I could find, supports what you're claiming here.

And so, yes, I'm saying that a vehicle CAN MAKE multiple attacks if it has multiple weapons, and if these weapons are fired in the shooting phase then you could refer to them as "shooting attacks."

Again, I could be convinced otherwise, but in my reading I didn't come across any sentences that said something like, "a model armed with ranged weaponry can make a shooting attack in the shooting phase." There seem to be just vague references to shooting attacks but nowhere that qualifies or quantifies them. Other than the fact that a model shoots all of its weapons at the same time (which, actually, I don't even know where THAT'S spelled out in the rulebook), I didn't come across anything terribly convincing.

I worded it poorly.

I should have said that "they can fire multiple weapons during their shooting attack but each one is not treated as separate shooting attack.

Most models are limited to a single attack, which is where the association with the "shooting attack" referenced by the Pupper Master power is coming from. However, when a vehicle does its shooting attack, it can fire everything it has, or choose to leave out certain one-use weapons, just as a player can elect to have a unit not fire a one-use weapon wielding model not fire.

The vehicles rules state that they can fire just like any other unit, except their rules stipulate that they can fire everything if its remained stationary in that turn's movement phase.

TL;DR - A vehicle doesn't get a number of shooting attacks equal to its weapons. It gets a single shooting attack and can fire everything it has based on the exception that Vehicles have based on how far that they've moved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, that is correct.

I'm sorry Nos but I feel like in that case it would say "make shooting attacks"

No; a model firing weapon(s) is a single shooting attack. Same as firing multiple shots from one weapon deosnt make it shooting attacks (sorry, horrible grammar to squeeze the phrase in there) firing 2 weapons when you are allowed to is still your shooting attack - you are just doing it with multiple weapons

Shooting Attack is the set of all shooting actions a model can make in a phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No; a model firing weapon(s) is a single shooting attack. Same as firing multiple shots from one weapon doesnt make it shooting attacks (sorry, horrible grammar to squeeze the phrase in there) firing 2 weapons when you are allowed to is still your shooting attack - you are just doing it with multiple weapons

Shooting Attack is the set of all shooting actions a model can make in a phase.

It's terrible language on GW's part.

For example I take a Flyrant and upgrade him to have 2 PSA's and no "guns".

Using 2 of them would be using 2 pyschic shooting attacks.

The problem that we are conserned about in this thread but is not adressed in the book is "what is a shooting attack?"

Is is the shooting of a weapon, or is it the term used for shooting with a model? The game never states what a shooting attack is, we only asume that it is an attack using shooting.

Regularly, what prevent us from shooting more times with one model is found under the weapons senction under "if a model has multiple weapons, it can only fire one of them".

Bikes with multiple models, vehicles and monsterus creatures can shoot with more weapons whenever they shoot. However it does never spesify if "whenever they shoot" is a shooting attack, or if each fiering of the gun is a shooting attack.

I do belive that this depends on your interpetattion as there is no good RAW here.

Since it in none of the 3 instances that bypass the "can only shoot with one ranged weapon" rule states what they are, only that they are alowed I would asume that "making a shooting attack" is the same as fiering with the model. This would nean that bikes with multiple models, MC's and vehicles would be abel to fire more then one weapon. Since the restriction on vehicles fiering weapons refer to how fast it has moved in the current players turn puppet mastering a tanks would allow you to shoot with all of it's weapons. That at least is how I interet it.

 Flinty wrote:

 undertow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, making a "shooting attack" means you use any weapons you have, subject to the normal rules for firing weapons - so a normal model could fire 1, a MC 2, and a vehicle potentially all, barring Ordnance

So you're saying for example, you hit my Daemon Prince with Puppet Master, I fail my Deny the Witch. The Prince has Bolt of Tzeentch and Daemonic Gaze. You say "I'm going to have your Prince make a shooting attack at that squad of Flamers, and the shooting attack will consist of Bolt and Gaze"

Sound right? If so, I think I agree.

The chosen thingies sound like psychic powers and therefore would also be restricted by the model's power token pool. Bu I don;t know that much about Daemon Princes

Daemons from the Daemon Codex don't have psychic powers, they have Daemonic Gifts, which are 'functionally equivalent' to wargear and equipment.

A good reference (pg49 - FMCs / Grounded Tests)

"...suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack..."

nosferatu1001 wrote:No; a model firing weapon(s) is a single shooting attack. Same as firing multiple shots from one weapon deosnt make it shooting attacks (sorry, horrible grammar to squeeze the phrase in there) firing 2 weapons when you are allowed to is still your shooting attack - you are just doing it with multiple weapons

Shooting Attack is the set of all shooting actions a model can make in a phase.

Not sure I agree, because...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:For example I take a Flyrant and upgrade him to have 2 PSA's and no "guns".

Using 2 of them would be using 2 pyschic shooting attacks.

...and...

Niiai wrote:"What is a shooting attack?" Is it the shooting of a weapon, or is it the term used for shooting with a model? The game never states what a shooting attack is, we only asume that it is an attack using shooting.

Basically, there's no RAW. And don't get me wrong - I play Chaos and try to get Puppet Master every time I play. On top of that, I use almost no vehicles, so your interpretation (Nos) definitely benefits me... but I think it could go either way.

toxic_wisdom wrote:A good reference (pg49 - FMCs / Grounded Tests)

"...suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack..."

Great find but I don't think it helps much in this instance, unless I'm missing something that you could explain.

Nope, it would be counted as using two PSAs, not two Shooting Attacks - it is one shooting attack with two weapons

 Tangent wrote:

toxic_wisdom wrote:A good reference (pg49 - FMCs / Grounded Tests)

"...suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack..."

Great find but I don't think it helps much in this instance, unless I'm missing something that you could explain.

The unit owns the shooting attack - which can include more than one weapon.

""During the Shooting phase,a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.""

""When a vehicle fires, it uses its own Ballistic Skill characteristic, and shoots like any other unit.""

There are a variety of other places that refer to Shooting Attacks from a unit... Out of Range/LOS. etc..

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No; a model firing weapon(s) is a single shooting attack. Same as firing multiple shots from one weapon doesnt make it shooting attacks (sorry, horrible grammar to squeeze the phrase in there) firing 2 weapons when you are allowed to is still your shooting attack - you are just doing it with multiple weapons

Shooting Attack is the set of all shooting actions a model can make in a phase.

It's terrible language on GW's part.

For example I take a Flyrant and upgrade him to have 2 PSA's and no "guns".

Using 2 of them would be using 2 pyschic shooting attacks.

Bad example. Hive Tyrants are only Mastery Level 1.

Let me try to shed some light from my point of view.

Ahriman can use multiple witchfires, which are themselves like psychic shooting attacks.. That means he makes multiple psychic shooting attacks, right?

Personally, if I was to use Puppetmaster on a vehicle, I would only use 1 weapon. I'm under the impression that if I was to try and use more than 1 weapon on that vehicle as a result of puppetmaster, I would be cheating my opponent.

It's clear to me that a shooting attack means "one", because of Ahriman's situation.

FYI, I use Puppetmaster a lot.

"a shooting attack" references the ability of a unit to shoot during its shooting phase. It does not mean a single attack.

Ahriman can "manifest three Witchfire powers in the same Shooting phase...." So his Shooting attack can consist of 3 witchfires instead of one.