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This is a report from my game with Poddy from Tuesday night. I am testing out a mech Chosen list, should be interesting.

Chaos Space Marines - 2,000 points

HQ

Abaddon the Despoiler

Elites

Helbrute - reaper autocannon
Helbrute - reaper autocannon

Troops

5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns - havoc launcher
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns - havoc launcher
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns - havoc launcher
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns - havoc launcher
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns - havoc launcher
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns - havoc launcher

Fast Attack

Heldrake - baleflamer

Heavy Support

2 x Obliterators - mark of nurgle
5 x Havocs - 4 x autocannons
5 x Havocs - 4 x autocannons

Dark Eldar - 2,000 points

HQ

Haemonculus - liquifier gun

Elite

3 x Kabalite Trueborn w/ Venom - 3 x blasters - Venom w/ splinter cannon
3 x Kabalite Trueborn w/ Venom - 3 x blasters - Venom w/ splinter cannon
3 x Kabalite Trueborn w/ Venom - 3 x blasters - Venom w/ splinter cannon

Troops

5 x Kabalite Warriors w/ Venom - blaster - Venom w/ splinter cannon
5 x Kabalite Warriors w/ Venom - blaster - Venom w/ splinter cannon
5 x Kabalite Warriors w/ Venom - blaster - Venom w/ splinter cannon
5 x Kabalite Warriors w/ Venom - blaster - Venom w/ splinter cannon
9 x Wyches w/ Raider - shardnet & impaler - Hekatrix w/ agoniser - Raider w/ flickerfield

Fast Attack

6 x Reaver Jetbikes - 2 x heat lances
6 x Reaver Jetbikes - 2 x heat lances

Heavy Support

Ravager - flickerfield
Ravager - flickerfield
Ravager - flickerfield

Game: crusade + vanguard strike - night fighting is active

Deployment

I won the roll off for table side while Poddy won the roll off for deployment. Poddy decided to go first and deployed his Ravagers top right hand corner, a little further down is the Venoms with the Raider length ways on to give cover. Reavers are hiding behind a ruin on either flank of the Venom fleet.

I pop my two Havoc units together in a building, I guess I could have put them further back maybe, though LOS would be a issue. It's catch 22. Rhinos I deploy together using a large ruin for some shape of cover. The Helbrutes deploy on either flank of the Rhinos.

Objectives had been placed with three along Poddy's table edge and I had placed one in the centre ruin and one where the Havocs are; may as well make it easy for me to get them and plus it's the direction I am going.

I cannot remember warlord traits, though they was nothing significant.

* Tactical Notes

I am in for a tough game here. Poddy's poison weapons will make short work of any infantry caught in the open while blasters and lance can take off hull points like the tax man takes money from your pay packet. Add in that is it night fighting first turn, which of course D.E ignore, great!

Turn 1

I attempt to seize the initiaitive as I don't want to get blasted by splinter cannons first turn, though it doesn't happen.

Dark Eldar first turn; pretty much everything moves 12" towards me.

Shooting; both Reaver units bladevane a unit of Havocs, one unit I pass every single armour save from, though the other leaves me with only two Havocs left. Splinter cannons then fire and wipe out the remaining Havoc units - no more Havocs! Raider moves flat out and uses the ruin for cover where the Havocs were based. Ravagers fire lances and manage to take out a Helbrute first turn.

Ok, my first turn and Poddy has hit me hard. I move the front Rhinos 12" using the ruin for cover best I can while the ones at the back move up 6". The Helbrute moves up too, I use a Rhino to give it cover.

Shooting; havoc launchers fire and deplete a unit of Reavers; they pass morale test. Couple of plasma guns fire into Venoms, though Poddy does well on flickers or I do nothing.

* Tactical Notes

Right, that didn't go well. I've took a right hammering first turn; I've lost two units of Havocs and a Helbrute, that's 18 S7 shots down. Poddy was spot on to go for the Havocs first turn and also the Helbrute.

Next turn I'll have to hit hard and hope the Heldrake and Abaddon arrive. Also, I'll have to react to Poddy's movement because at the moment I cannot do a fat lot based upon positions.

Turn 2

The Raider sneaks around the corner of the ruin moving 6" and the Wyches bail out taking the pain token, looks like multi assault with haywires is gonna happen! Venoms move towards my table edge while a Trueborn Venom lingers towards Poddy's table edge. Reavers start to move towards Poddy's table edge and the left flank.

Shooting; both Reavers move flat out, one unit lands by the shrine ruin by the left flank, they can heat lance something next turn. Other unit uses a large ruin for cover by Poddy's table edge. Blasters and lances fire, I end up losing a two Rhinos and both those squads eat splinter weapons and die, however as Poddy fired at one unit and wiped it out with Wyches, it means he cannot assault anything else and the Wyches are begging for havoc pain. A Rhino takes a stunned result while the Helbrute loses the reaper and has one hull point left, well that's out of it then.....

I roll for reserves and only Abaddon and his Obliterators buddies arrive, they scatter and almost land in a ruin, but luckily are 3" away from a Ravager.

I move one Rhino carrying meltas forward, unit bails out and moves up so they are within 6" of the lone Trueborn Venom. I move another two Rhinos towards the Wyches and two plasma units bail out ready to blast away Wyches etc. I also pop smoke on the stunned Rhino, it's not doing anything to may as well get some cover. Helbrute moves towards terrain hoping to smash some Reaver face.

Shooting; melta unit slags the lone Venom, it goes boom and a single Trueborn remains. Oblits fire twin-linked meltas into a Ravager and it is nuked. Havocs fire into the Wyches and kill three, bolter and plasma salvo fires and four remain; they pass morale - luckily Hekatrix is gone. Plasma and bolters long range fire into a Trueborn Venom, though all I can do is take off a hull point.

Assault; Helbrute declares assault on the Reavers, they fail overwatch with heat lances and the Helbrute charges in. Helbrute kills two and Poddy decides to auto fail morale test, unfortunately my Helbrute catches the Reavers in sweeping advance and butchers the entire squad!

* Tactical Notes

I've still taken a hit this turn, but at least I've started to bring the pain; Wyches have almost been depleted, a Venom is down and a Trueborn squad is almost gone. Oh, don't forget that Ravager.

Now the best part is is that Abaddon and the Obliterators are in the thick of things and can bring the pain. I will split these and send Abaddon to deck infantry and Obliterators can open up D.E vehicles.

Turn 3

Poddy brings pretty much his entire fleet down towards my table edge. Wyches move up to get their grove on with some CSM. Reavers come down and looks like they are going to bladevane the Chosen who just took out the Trueborn Venom.

Shooting; splinters and lances fire, only a two Chosen remain from one plasma squad and only one from another; both pass morale tests. I also lose a Rhino and another is stunned, great. Reavers bladevane the Chosen unit and two die, Poddy finishes them off with splinter cannons.

Assault; Wyches multi assault the two man Chosen unit and the Rhino behind, Rhino loses a hull point while a Chosen dies, though two Wyches die also; combat is a draw.

I roll for reserve and the Heldrake fails to show.

I move the Helbrute out the ruin and towards the Rhino wrecks. Previously stunned Rhino moves up using the ruin for cover, it's turn 3 now and there's a objective in the centre ruin. I doubt I can reach the other objectives. Oblits and Abaddon spilt, though both mooch down towards the D.E fleet.

Shooting; single plasma guy blasts a Trueborn Venom and takes off a hull point. Obliterators plasma gun at Venom, it goes boom and only one Warrior remains; passes morale. That's about it for me, running out of guns!

Assault; Abaddon charges a Venom and mashes it, two Warriors remain from the explosion, they fail morale and run off. Oblits attempt to assault the single Warrior who survived the plasma attack, though they fail. Wyches vs Chosen, I forgot to move the Rhino, so Poddy auto hits that and another hull point goes.

* Tactical Notes

Where's my Heldrake!? Poddy has stuff bunched up and I need it now, burny burny!

This turn I've still taken a hit, though I am starting to come back and unleash the pain. Pity the Oblits didn't make assault or else they would be in the thick of things.

I reckon Poddy has this game in the bag. I have one full troop unit and a single dude, who is locked combat. If Poddy moves his Venoms flat out, he can reach the other objectives fine and win this game.

Turn 4

Poddy moves in Venoms in for the kill and comes towards me moving along my table edge, while the unit falling back fails morale and is by the objective. Reavers move along my table edge.

Shooting; splinter cannons open fire and kill the single Chosen. Loads of lances and blasters fire into my last operational Rhino, it is uber tough and passes every cover save. Splinters fire into Abaddon, but after passing many saves he only takes a single wound, I cannot complain. Oblits get blasted by a Ravager, one of them takes a wound; MoN is so useful!

Assault; Wyches auto hit my Rhino and bust it while the single Chosen goes down to china town, Wyches consolidate into the ruin my side where the objective is.

Heldrake auto arrives and comes on from by my right hand corner, it vector strikes a Ravager, which goes boom. Unbeatable Rhino smashes through terrain and the objective is right about it, meltas prime and are ready to slag the last Trueborn Venom. Helbrute mooches forward and gets his power fist ready to mash the Raider, though it's a long way to go. Abaddon comes down as do the Obliterators while the previously stunned Rhino moves to drop some havoc.

Shooting; empty Rhino fires bolter and havoc into the falling back unit, one dies, which forces a morale test, which the unit auto fails and falls back. Meltas fire into the Trueborn Venom and both totally miss! Helbrute bbq's multiple units, but I roll three 1's to damage vehicles! To add to the lack of damage this turn, I forget to fire the Obliterators too!

Assault; Abaddon assaults the Raider and he goes boom, Haemonculus is now staring down the warmaster and is quaking in fear. Helbrute charges through cover and makes it to the Trueborn Venom, he mashes it with his power fist and the skimmer goes boom, all Trueborn die.

* Tactical Notes

As Poddy didn't secure any objectives this turn I may snatch it back, but that's only if the game ends. If the game doesn't end then Poddy has easily won. At least I can kill the Haemonculus and gain a point.

Turn 5

The last three Venoms break for it zoom and towards the three objectives, they are not there yet, but next turn will have them. Wyches move through cover and climb the ruin to claim the objective by my table edge. I don't think there's anything this turn, oh Wyches shoot at Abaddon and do nothing.

Ok, my turn, Dragon turns 90 degrees and chases after the Reavers and Venom while Oblits fall back to support. Abaddon chases after the Haemonculus while the Helbrute moves through terrain to get the Wyches. My last Chosen unit climb out the Rhino and claim the centre objective.

Shooting; Heldrake burns some Reavers, they pass morale. Obliterators fire assault cannons into a Venom, I think it goes down if I remember right, so that's one objective possibly secured. Havocs fire into the other two Venoms, though best I can do is take off a hull point from one.

Assault; Abaddon charges the Haemonculus and causes serious pain. Helbrute charges the Wyches, Wyches fail to do anything and so does the Helbrute.

We roll for the game and it ends here. I win with a very flukey victory.

Summary

I feel a bit gutted that Poddy didn't win this game. I know the dice ended the game, but I can't help feeling that Poddy was cheated out of a victory. Ok, he should have gone for objectives turn 4, as I don't think the Venoms achieved a lot on turn 4.

I made some mistakes myself; I forgot to fire Obliterators one turn, doh!

I am not sure on this list. Heldrake is cool and Abaddon isn't too bad, though is expensive. Chosen are ok, but everything just seems to add up and everything (apart from Abaddon, Oblits and Heldrake) seem to go down very quickly. My Havocs didn't even get to fire!

Those were some unreal first and second turns!

Going to have to go out on a limb and agree, the chosen spam may not be the route to go.

Yes, Poddy hammered me good. I am a bit sad he didn't win tbh.

I am going to have to agree. In 5th it would have been ok, but not now. If you want vehicles you need something like Necrons, which are durable or general skimmers which at least get a jink save. Anything which is basically on wheels i.e Imperium stuff is dead in the water.

Such a pity as I really do not like foot lists. I guess I'll stick with my Daemons

I think you can make the mech list work, albeit with a few tweaks.

I've been running Mech Inquisition to great success recently and having a blast doing so.

Not a bad game on both fronts!

Poddy did a great job of isolating his threats. His dice rolls were also much better.

I feel that Abbadon is not really worth it unless you are takng 5 plasma in a Chosen squad.

These lists are so 5th edition. That isn't to say that MSU is completely dead, but where's the beef in terms of scoring units? It's so easy to take out 10 MEQ now, let alone 5. I think that a hybrid version of the CSM list would be far stronger.

Abby

2x 30 Cultists, 3 Flamers
2x5 Chosen in Rhinos, 2 melta
2x5 Chosen in Rhinos, 2 plasma guns

2 Heldrakes

4 Nurgle Spawn

3x5 Autocannon Havocs with VotLW

Should be around 2k. I don't think that the list is the best CSM has to offer, but I'd consider it one of the better Chosen lists.

Taking 2 weapons in a squad of chosen is pointless. Worthless.

You might as well run a squad of 5 plague marines, and benefit from T5 and FnP.

Chosen are all about 5 special weapons.

I agree with the comments about the chosen if your taking them you need to max out on the special weapons otherwise your better off with Plague Marines.

I'm not convinced going the chosen route is the right way to go.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:I think you can make the mech list work, albeit with a few tweaks.

I've been running Mech Inquisition to great success recently and having a blast doing so.

Cool. What you been using?

eldartau1987 wrote:Not a bad game on both fronts!

Poddy did a great job of isolating his threats. His dice rolls were also much better.

I feel that Abbadon is not really worth it unless you are takng 5 plasma in a Chosen squad.

Yes, he did really well.

Abaddon is a lot of points. He's pretty killy, but not worth the points to do that. Additional plasma guns bump up the Chosen cost even more, and when in a Rhino there's no point in having more than two specials as only two can fire out from the hatch.

JGrand wrote:These lists are so 5th edition. That isn't to say that MSU is completely dead, but where's the beef in terms of scoring units? It's so easy to take out 10 MEQ now, let alone 5. I think that a hybrid version of the CSM list would be far stronger.

Abby

2x 30 Cultists, 3 Flamers
2x5 Chosen in Rhinos, 2 melta
2x5 Chosen in Rhinos, 2 plasma guns

2 Heldrakes

4 Nurgle Spawn

3x5 Autocannon Havocs with VotLW

Should be around 2k. I don't think that the list is the best CSM has to offer, but I'd consider it one of the better Chosen lists.

What is a 6th ed list? Looks like a 5th ed list with flyers to me.

Speaking of lists, the one you suggests is almost the same as the one I've been using. Only difference is you've bloated Cultists just to hold objectives and added VotLW on the Havocs, which isn't need unless you play in a Mairne heavy meta. You also said that it's easy to take out 10 Marines, so 5 is a doodle, yet put units of 5 in the list. I am confused

Firstborn wrote:Taking 2 weapons in a squad of chosen is pointless. Worthless.

You might as well run a squad of 5 plague marines, and benefit from T5 and FnP.

Chosen are all about 5 special weapons.

When using a Rhino there's no point in having more than two specials as only two can fire out from the hatch.

And yes, I would rather have Plague Marines.

GiraffeX wrote:I agree with the comments about the chosen if your taking them you need to max out on the special weapons otherwise your better off with Plague Marines.

I'm not convinced going the chosen route is the right way to go.

When using a Rhino there's no point in having more than two specials as only two can fire out from the hatch. And yes, I would rather take Plague Marines, and also Chosen probably aren't the way to go; on foot they will cost too much and inside a vehicle they cost even more.

I don't know what went wrong in this game but I guess DE just have too much fire power and shame the havocs got killed so quickly.

DE is just too good at killing infantry and you need things like dakkadreads or the like to handle them. Maybe getting rid of the hellbrutes and make the havocs squads into forgefiends.

They can always hide behind the rhinos.

I like the list but I guess its just a bad match up.

yes, it was down to the typical D.E fire power and D.E getting first turn. Can't say I am surprised those Havocs got blasted to bits first turn.

Yup, D.E are wicked at killing infantry and they are the whole reason why I do not want to do infantry lists; too many D.E players who I play against.

Not sure on Forgefiends. They are slightly more survivable than Helbrutes, but cost a massive 70 points more and 60 points more than Havocs. I think it is worth trying them out at least.

At least someone likes the list

What is a 6th ed list? Looks like a 5th ed list with flyers to me.

Speaking of lists, the one you suggests is almost the same as the one I've been using. Only difference is you've bloated Cultists just to hold objectives and added VotLW on the Havocs, which isn't need unless you play in a Mairne heavy meta. You also said that it's easy to take out 10 Marines, so 5 is a doodle, yet put units of 5 in the list. I am confused

I don't play of really love the list I put up, but I was suggesting a way you could tweak yours to be more 6th edition. I actually think both lists would get rolled for the most part.

Basically, in 6th you need to be able to beat or outlast flyers. You can do neither. You need a strong foot presence, which none of the lists you use have. It's interesting to see because you blog and post bat reps, but I don't think you have adjusted to 6th at all. Pure MSU is dead. MSU vehicle spam is dead because Cron Air is a better version which always gets the alpha strike. If you look at the successful lists in 6th edition so far, most have lots of boots on the ground.

Just my 2 cents after a few months of 6th. I think that you may be in for a rude awakening when you face some balanced (or unbalanced in the case of Cron Air) 6th edition forces. Most of these reps seem to be 5th edition mech v 5th edition mech.

Even though Havocs are cheap, a I rather have Oblit with MoN, 2+ ith bettter than 3+.

I do understand that. I see the value in running two chosen with special weapons. Is it cheaper to run 5 man CSM with 1 weapon or Plague Marines with 2? I am curious and I do not own the dex.

Just to continue my thoughts for a good 6th edition CSM list:

Nurgle Lord on bike w/ fist, aura
Nurgle Sorcerer with aura, palanquin, lv 3 (1 Nurgle, 2 Biomancy)

15 CSM w 2 plasma guns, Icon of Vengence
15 CSM w 2 plasma guns, Icon of Vengence, PW on Sergent
2x 30 Cultists w 3 flamers

2x4 Nurgle Spawn
7 Nurgle bikers w 2 plasma

3x5 Autocannon Havocs with VotLW

at 2k

If you really want to go competitive, run a Nurgle Epidemius CSM list. I would go something like this (don't know if the points are correct as I don't have my codex with me right now).

Typhus
Epidemius

30-35x Zombie Cultists
30-35x Zombie Cultists
4x5 Plaguemarines - special weapons in rhinos
5-10x plaguebearers

2x5 Nurgle Spawns
5-7 Nurgle bikers - 2x plasmas

2x3 Nurgle Oblits
5x Nurgle Havocs w/autocannons

JGrand wrote:

What is a 6th ed list? Looks like a 5th ed list with flyers to me.

Speaking of lists, the one you suggests is almost the same as the one I've been using. Only difference is you've bloated Cultists just to hold objectives and added VotLW on the Havocs, which isn't need unless you play in a Mairne heavy meta. You also said that it's easy to take out 10 Marines, so 5 is a doodle, yet put units of 5 in the list. I am confused

I don't play of really love the list I put up, but I was suggesting a way you could tweak yours to be more 6th edition. I actually think both lists would get rolled for the most part.

Basically, in 6th you need to be able to beat or outlast flyers. You can do neither. You need a strong foot presence, which none of the lists you use have. It's interesting to see because you blog and post bat reps, but I don't think you have adjusted to 6th at all. Pure MSU is dead. MSU vehicle spam is dead because Cron Air is a better version which always gets the alpha strike. If you look at the successful lists in 6th edition so far, most have lots of boots on the ground.

Just my 2 cents after a few months of 6th. I think that you may be in for a rude awakening when you face some balanced (or unbalanced in the case of Cron Air) 6th edition forces. Most of these reps seem to be 5th edition mech v 5th edition mech.

Did you say you don't play or don't play with that list? I cannot make it out.

Perhaps I am stuck in 5th ed mode, however, where I play there is limited flyers. In fact the only heavy flyer build is Necrons; a single build. Adding buckets of anti flyer to a list for a certain list is a knee jerk reaction. For limited amount of flyers, I have the right stuff.

Just because a certain list is good that doesn't make certain builds dead. Again, I feel you're looking at things from a narrow view and only focusing on a certain build i.e Cronair.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Even though Havocs are cheap, a I rather have Oblit with MoN, 2+ ith bettter than 3+.

Yes, I think I would too. The MoN is very handy on Oblits.

eldartau1987 wrote:I do understand that. I see the value in running two chosen with special weapons. Is it cheaper to run 5 man CSM with 1 weapon or Plague Marines with 2? I am curious and I do not own the dex.

I don't know from the top of my head tbh.

JGrand wrote:Just to continue my thoughts for a good 6th edition CSM list:

Nurgle Lord on bike w/ fist, aura
Nurgle Sorcerer with aura, palanquin, lv 3 (1 Nurgle, 2 Biomancy)

15 CSM w 2 plasma guns, Icon of Vengence
15 CSM w 2 plasma guns, Icon of Vengence, PW on Sergent
2x 30 Cultists w 3 flamers

2x4 Nurgle Spawn
7 Nurgle bikers w 2 plasma

3x5 Autocannon Havocs with VotLW

at 2k

That's not really something I am looking for tbh. Nice list though. Although, my old CSM list is probably something you'd approve of. It would need minor changes to adapt to 6th.

jy2 wrote:If you really want to go competitive, run a Nurgle Epidemius CSM list. I would go something like this (don't know if the points are correct as I don't have my codex with me right now).

Typhus
Epidemius

30-35x Zombie Cultists
30-35x Zombie Cultists
4x5 Plaguemarines - special weapons in rhinos
5-10x plaguebearers

2x5 Nurgle Spawns
5-7 Nurgle bikers - 2x plasmas

2x3 Nurgle Oblits
5x Nurgle Havocs w/autocannons

That's not really something I am looking for tbh. Nice list though.

Did you say you don't play or don't play with that list? I cannot make it out.

Perhaps I am stuck in 5th ed mode, however, where I play there is limited flyers. In fact the only heavy flyer build is Necrons; a single build. Adding buckets of anti flyer to a list for a certain list is a knee jerk reaction. For limited amount of flyers, I have the right stuff.

Just because a certain list is good that doesn't make certain builds dead. Again, I feel you're looking at things from a narrow view and only focusing on a certain build i.e Cronair.

I don't play either of the Chaos lists I've put up, but I brought them up to discuss better ideas.

For the record, I don't advocate knee jerk reactions of adding "buckets of anti-flyer." However, flyers are a major change to 6th edition that must be accounted for in competitive play. Which I assume from previous posts, you want to be about.

I've said many times, you now must build to beat flyers, or build to ignore them. I think that ignoring is the best policy, in that gobs of troops also helps capture objectives and quarters (which is what 6th is really about). 30 MEQ doesn't cut it anymore. Everything is so killy that removing 10 MEQ a a turn is par for the course. Razor spam sucks because there is a better version of it; flyer spam. Flyer spam is a rock, but it's a rock that hard counters traditional 5th edition lists. Hence, the "knee jerk" reactions of players shouting they are broken.

I guess my major concern is that there is no paradigm shift for a player giving advice on "competitive" 6th.

Yes, flyers are a big change to 40k i cannot deny that. Thogj you Said build lists to tackle or ignore flyers and you would go ignore. All my lists can deal with flyers, while not all in a dedicated way but weight of shots etc would bring them down.

I am not sure your point on msu. In 5th msu was fine, there is no difference now as infantry die the same way as before. Only difference is changes to vehicles, which sort of doesn't effect infantry survivibility once they are on foot. The real problem with msu is vehicles, but if it's the case where more vehicles are no good, then surely less vehicles are worse?

Really, i don't think there's as big change as you're making out. Flyers you Said you would ignore, so that's them dealt with and surely in a objective heavy game you want more troop units to claim and saturate the board rather than 30 next useless guys who just cost points to take objective.

 jy2 wrote:
If you really want to go competitive, run a Nurgle Epidemius CSM list. I would go something like this (don't know if the points are correct as I don't have my codex with me right now).

Typhus
Epidemius

30-35x Zombie Cultists
30-35x Zombie Cultists
4x5 Plaguemarines - special weapons in rhinos
5-10x plaguebearers

2x5 Nurgle Spawns
5-7 Nurgle bikers - 2x plasmas

2x3 Nurgle Oblits
5x Nurgle Havocs w/autocannons

Close. But you are missing a key unit; Blight Drones. You absolutely need 2-3 Blight Drones in an Epidemius list.
Forgeworld FAQ'd them; they are now flyers and are essential.

Also, your Plague Marine units need to be bigger than 5 in an Epidemius list. No less than 7 per squad, and I would take full 10's.

Firstborn wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
If you really want to go competitive, run a Nurgle Epidemius CSM list. I would go something like this (don't know if the points are correct as I don't have my codex with me right now).

Typhus
Epidemius

30-35x Zombie Cultists
30-35x Zombie Cultists
4x5 Plaguemarines - special weapons in rhinos
5-10x plaguebearers

2x5 Nurgle Spawns
5-7 Nurgle bikers - 2x plasmas

2x3 Nurgle Oblits
5x Nurgle Havocs w/autocannons

Close. But you are missing a key unit; Blight Drones. You absolutely need 2-3 Blight Drones in an Epidemius list.
Forgeworld FAQ'd them; they are now flyers and are essential.

Also, your Plague Marine units need to be bigger than 5 in an Epidemius list. No less than 7 per squad, and I would take full 10's.

For tornaments that allow blight drone then yes they are good but if not then the live above is as good as you can get.

It is not 40k approve because its in the old apocalypse II book

Also why 7? other than its nurgle number what else does it do?

Yes, flyers are a big change to 40k i cannot deny that. Thogj you Said build lists to tackle or ignore flyers and you would go ignore. All my lists can deal with flyers, while not all in a dedicated way but weight of shots etc would bring them down.

Out of the 4 reaper shots from the Helbrutes, you should average a little over 1 hit at st 7.

Of the 6 meltas, you should average 1 hit.

Of the 6 plasma guns, you average 1 hit at 24" and 2 at 12" (with an average of 1-2 on your own models to boot).

The Oblits average just over 1 hit of st 6 with assault cannons.

The Havocs average under 3 hits of st 7.

Which means, if you are able to bring all of your firepower to bear (which you won't ever), you average 4 st 7, 1 st 6, 1 st 8 AP1, and 1-2 st 7 AP 2. That isn't "dealing with flyers through a weight of fire." That's an average of 8 hits, and that's assuming all of your models are alive and in range. This is before jinks and penetration rolls. No, you cannot deal with flyer spam with your "weight of fire."

I am not sure your point on msu. In 5th msu was fine, there is no difference now as infantry die the same way as before. Only difference is changes to vehicles, which sort of doesn't effect infantry survivibility once they are on foot. The real problem with msu is vehicles, but if it's the case where more vehicles are no good, then surely less vehicles are worse?

Cover saves are worse and armies are more killy. Vehicles are also far easier to kill and have severe negative affects on the inside passengers. The real problem with MSU is that good armies are removing 10 MEQ a turn easy when they bring their fire to bear. 5 MEQ is that much more of a joke, especially if you expect them to hold objectives.

Really, i don't think there's as big change as you're making out. Flyers you Said you would ignore, so that's them dealt with and surely in a objective heavy game you want more troop units to claim and saturate the board rather than 30 next useless guys who just cost points to take objective.

Here's the fundamental disconnect summed up by your quote. 30 guys aren't useless if they control midfield, and survive to take an objective and/or table quarter. If you think 30 expensive MEQ in paper thin Rhinos is enough in 6th, then you aren't playing the same 6th edition that most people are. If you look at the lists that are doing well at the moment, they have boots on the ground. In a game in which you plan on losing 30+ MEQ every game, you need to have 60+ to compete.

I don't play CSM so I won't dip my toe in the tactics debate. Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading the batrep. I liked the narratrive style and could really get a good feel for the flow of the battle, which isn't always easy when there's no maps or piccies.

Good God, these are some boring, spammy lists.

Great report as always, Mercer! One minor thing about Abaddon, which I swear everyone misses...I don't think he can join any marked units (such as Nurgle Oblits).

I could be wrong about that, but I know an independent character with a mark of chaos cannot join a unit with a different mark of chaos (page 30). I would say since Abaddon has all 4 marks of chaos, he can't join Nurgle Oblits (because he has mark of Tzeentch, mark of Khorne, and Mark of Slaanesh). Not a huge problem, but it definitely makes him a little worse imo.

I think you should do at least one more test game with Chaos before going back to your Daemons. I'd actually recommend playing with a few Maulerfiends - they're much better than they seem on paper and would fit well with a mech-spam list.

Venomspam is a hard list-

 mercer wrote:

Poddy decides to auto fail morale test

Gotta ask, I didn't know DE could do this?

@Almarine
Now if you cannot hurt your opponent in Close Combat, you can choose to auto-fail your morale and get away.

@mercer

My Inquisition List

Coteaz
Librarian with 4 book powers
2x 10 Henchman: 6DCA, 4 Crsauders
4x 3 Warriors in Psy Backs
2x Stormravens with AC, MM, Hurricane Bolters and Psybolt ammo
LRC with MM
LRR with MM

All that at 1850.

 Unholy_Martyr wrote:
@Almarine
Now if you cannot hurt your opponent in Close Combat, you can choose to auto-fail your morale and get away.

Ah that's right, thanks.

JGrand wrote:

Are you are a crusade to make me accept what you're saying?

I have already told you that where I play I play against limited flyers, mostly 1 per army, though sometimes 3 - typical Guard with their Vendettas! You've just proven that with my weight of fire power (I probably won't have all guns) that I will be able to take down the limited amount of flyers I frequently play against. Like I said, you're just having a knee jerk reaction against mass flyer spam. Only one army can spam that many flyers and I don't build my lists tailored just to one particular build. Not everyone has to worry about Cronair. I'll worry about it when/if I ever get a match up against. For the time being, Cronair is not a concern.

But, as you said, you can ignore flyers or build to deal with them and you chose to ignore them. While I do have limited fire power, which can deal with a low number of flyers, I do what you do, ignore them. So this whole point of not dealing with a bazillion flyers is moot.

Cover saves have changed, but not a massive amount. I am not sure if you play on a football pitch, but I play with ruins, which as you know give 4+ cover. So cover hasn't really changed a great deal for me. The only real cover changes I've experienced is shooting through units, craters and un-natural cover saves i.e smoke etc.

Now, you keep saying that's it's easy to remove 10 MEQ. If that's the case I refer back to my point on why did you suggest me taking them in an apparently better list you suggested?

Not sure why 30 guys need to take a table quarter. That's not any 40k missions. Also, you said cover is worse, which for 30 dudes with crap saves isn't a good thing.

When you say lists which are doing good, do you mean you're copying tournament lists? I don't really looking at tournament lists that much tbh. It's worth a look every know and again, but as you know, tournament lists do not reflect the 'must have' build, if that's the case then Footdar would be warranted in 5th ed.

Peace out!

Necroagogo wrote:I don't play CSM so I won't dip my toe in the tactics debate. Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading the batrep. I liked the narratrive style and could really get a good feel for the flow of the battle, which isn't always easy when there's no maps or piccies.

Thanks, dude!

Xenocidal Maniac wrote:Good God, these are some boring, spammy lists.

Just as boring as your same old original troll comment?

Siphen wrote:Great report as always, Mercer! One minor thing about Abaddon, which I swear everyone misses...I don't think he can join any marked units (such as Nurgle Oblits).

I could be wrong about that, but I know an independent character with a mark of chaos cannot join a unit with a different mark of chaos (page 30). I would say since Abaddon has all 4 marks of chaos, he can't join Nurgle Oblits (because he has mark of Tzeentch, mark of Khorne, and Mark of Slaanesh). Not a huge problem, but it definitely makes him a little worse imo.

I think you should do at least one more test game with Chaos before going back to your Daemons. I'd actually recommend playing with a few Maulerfiends - they're much better than they seem on paper and would fit well with a mech-spam list.

I'll look into that, dude. Thanks.

I don't mind Maulfiends tbh, but I don't think I would want them in a list I use, as I am a shooty player.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:

My Inquisition List

Coteaz
Librarian with 4 book powers
2x 10 Henchman: 6DCA, 4 Crsauders
4x 3 Warriors in Psy Backs
2x Stormravens with AC, MM, Hurricane Bolters and Psybolt ammo
LRC with MM
LRR with MM

All that at 1850.

Not bad, not bad. Looks the same as a 5th ed list

Nice Bat-Rep. A friend of mine runs Venom Spam, but has been playing Tyranids lately.

I agree that if you don't play in a Flyer heavy meta, your lists don't need to be tailored for it. If you play in a wider area tournament, you should factor in for it. Netlisting based on what does well in tournaments is valid, but not what a lot of players want to do, so kudos for not taking that easy way out.

Our group plays it that he can but it's currently up for debate about Abaddon joining a unit with a Mark. I know there was a thread in YMDC about it, but haven't checked to see if it's still up and running or locked. YMDC isn't for everyone, so as long as your group agrees, then it inane arguments about little details aren't going to matter. Hopefully, GW will FAQ it to clarify it.

Grats on your win against DE. I've personally not had a lot of luck against Venom Spam, but haven't played them in quite some time, and certainly not with the new CSM codex.