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Hey everybody, in this thread i would like to create a discussion on how to make flayed ones actually good while balanced at the same time.

Their current stats are:13 points for WS4, BS4, S4, T4,W1, I2,A3 and a 4+ save
Special Rule: Deep strike, infiltrate and reanimation protocols

When glancing over it it's not a bad stat line, with the exception of that initiative of two. No melee unit will ever be effective with such a low initiative (orks are a exception because they have a very low points cost)
The easy thing to do would be to give them an initiative of four; but because the initiative of two is an army trait, that would be... less than acceptable.

So here we run into the major problem, how do we make the flayed ones useful without giving them a higher initiative?

I would say giving them the fear special rule would be a start (It's fluffy and when fighting none marines, could be very useful)

Make the other things in the Fast Attack slot not so ridiculously good for their points cost?

General meta rule of thumb: If the special rule doesn't matter against Marines, it doesn't matter at all.

Fear is a useless rule, and would do nothing to help Flayed ones.

Take a look at THSS termies. They strike at i1, but rely on powerful saves to get their slow attacks through. Flayed ones don't have storm shields, but they do have reanimation protocols. That may not be as reliable as a 3++, but for just 13pts I'd say it's pretty damn decent.

 Blobpie wrote:

When glancing over it it's not a bad stat line, with the exception of that initiative of two. No melee unit will ever be effective with such a low initiative )

Like Canoptek Wraiths?

I like the idea of some extra general special rules. I would give them Fear, Fearless, Furious Charge, Move Through Cover and Fleet. That way, they could be a kinda' cool "Necron genestealers" like unit.

Crazyterran wrote:
Make the other things in the Fast Attack slot not so ridiculously good for their points cost?

Flayed ones are elite

What about just giving them Rending?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Blobpie wrote:

When glancing over it it's not a bad stat line, with the exception of that initiative of two. No melee unit will ever be effective with such a low initiative )

Like Canoptek Wraiths?

I like the idea of some extra general special rules. I would give them Fear, Fearless, Furious Charge, Move Through Cover and Fleet. That way, they could be a kinda' cool "Necron genestealers" like unit.

Wraiths are another exception because whip coils compensate for their low initiative.
But i do like your "Necron genestealer" Idea

jms40k wrote:
What about just giving them Rending?

Couple that with the rending and then perhaps we could make the flayed ones actually useful.

Just make Flayed Ones able to assault after either deep striking or outflanking, or moving them to troops, or making them cost 10 points per model, would make them playable. Or perhaps a combination of those three things.

Give them fleet, rending, and a 1 or 2 point increase. (and fearless if they dont have it.)

Heroic Intervention and Fear are the fluffy things to do.

Marines ignoring Fear is a problem with the game as a whole and thus irrelevant to (beyond the scope of) this thread.

The weakness of Flayed Ones isn't that their statline is awful, it's because there is nothing they do that a bog standard Necron Warrior doesn't do better. Even 2 extra attacks over the Warrior doesn't make them better at melee because they rarely get to make those attacks, and they can't charge without getting shot to pieces.

The simplest solution is to make them Troops. Then they would be useful with no other changes.

... Except that Necron Warriors would still be better.

I don't recall Necron Warriors having the ability to Deep Strike onto an objective without spending extra points for it, as just one example.

I actually don't think they need that much of a buff, just a point reduction should do.

They aren't meant to be a killy unit, I like to think of them as harassment unit, like DE's scourges and such. If used right, you can use them to force your opponent to shuffle his units about, such as an otherwise stationary heavy shooting unit, or hide them near AV10 vehicles, or the best path that they'd take to get to you, now they have to take the risk of getting glanced down by a flayed ones pack. I'm not saying that they're better than gauss weapons, but that they provide an additional threat bubble.

Problem is just that they cost the same as warriors, who are amazing for their pricetag, as well as being scoring unit, so unless all troops slots are filled and you still have points left, there really is little reason to bring such a niche unit that requires your own tactical mind and your opponent to not be he-who-only-moves-forward, that also depends if your table is filled with terrains that you can hide in.

Also: Scarabs

Make them 15 points per model and give them fearless and rending. Make them troops or make a special HQ that makes them troop (Lords can become flayed ones right?)

Just fearless would make them great. Then you can roll those fistfulls of attacks to the very last man.

-Matt

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I don't recall Necron Warriors having the ability to Deep Strike onto an objective without spending extra points for it, as just one example.

True, Warriors can't deep strike natively. On the other hand, they have the OPTION of spending the points to gain multiple, in-game deep strikes that let you put them wherever you want... which Flayed Ones don't have... and deep striking onto objectives is only really useful in the last turn, by which point all your flayed ones will be on the table and probably off it again due to casualties.