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"arc"

Yes, pretty much. Its a casualty of the 6th edition rules.

Also as a hypothetical, a vindicator shoots and the blast scatter 90degrees across say 8 inches which takes it out of that weapons ark then its not counted? I'm sure it says in the rulebook it still counts if it scatters out of range etc so really isn't this pretty much the same situation for the death ray with the main difference you choose the direction of the ray and not scatter, I know its not the best comparison but you get the point. Also it just says in the codex put the secont point within 3d6 of the 1st it doesn't say in Los or anything, then if you read the FAQ there are multiple entries in there for the death ray but nothing is mentioned off this because IMO its pretty obvious what is meant by the rules

Sinny! wrote:
So according to that logic the death ray line pretty much has to go forward and can't even go on a 90 degree angle like torrent weapons? As the in tire line must start in the 45 degree ark and can only damage things in that ark. So making the line go on a 90 degree angle would be pointless

Correct.

Sinnyl - read the rules for blasts, which talk about scattering and LOS. Notice anything in there about the Doomscythe? No? Then guess what - page 16 still applies. Its the way the rules work.

When the rule was written you could wound models out of LOS. Now you cant.

Thought I would get up and read my rulebook instead of keep guessing lol! I see what you are saying in regards to page 72 I still think it is something that should be faqd. Hypothetically you place the 1st point 12 inches away right on the edge of your 45degree arc then the 2nd point 3d6 away on a 90degree angle and hit say 3 marines out of a squad that are in that arc but then the marine right next to them that is just out of your arc but still under the line doesn't take a hit? Doesn't make much sense to me

Sinny! wrote:
Also as a hypothetical, a vindicator shoots and the blast scatter 90degrees across say 8 inches which takes it out of that weapons ark then its not counted? I'm sure it says in the rulebook it still counts if it scatters out of range etc so really isn't this pretty much the same situation for the death ray with the main difference you choose the direction of the ray and not scatter, I know its not the best comparison but you get the point. Also it just says in the codex put the secont point within 3d6 of the 1st it doesn't say in Los or anything, then if you read the FAQ there are multiple entries in there for the death ray but nothing is mentioned off this because IMO its pretty obvious what is meant by the rules

Blast weapons have permission to wound units that are out of sight if the blast scatters. The Death Ray has no such permission. I would have no problem with my opponent placing the second point out of sight, however, any models that are not within LOS of the weapon will not suffer.

I totally agree with you all it just seems that they wrote that rule with your standard weapons in mind and didn't think about the death ray. I'll have to wait for a FAQ I guess be cause honestly only being able to hit models in 45 degree arc yet being able to draw that line at over a 90 degree angle just doesn't make sense to me

Sinny! wrote:
I totally agree with you all it just seems that they wrote that rule with your standard weapons in mind and didn't think about the death ray. I'll have to wait for a FAQ I guess be cause honestly only being able to hit models in 45 degree arc yet being able to draw that line at over a 90 degree angle just doesn't make sense to me

It's not the only thing that took a hit. The only reason my Hive Guard are still allowed to Wound units out of sight is because my group house-ruled that it still worked like 5th ed. actually my group decided that Templates, Astral Aim, and Impaler Cannons could all wound models out of sight, with the only exception that for templates at least one model of the target unit must be visible and hit by the firing model,

since we are trying to use logic to propose that it could wound/damage out of sight, think about what the death ray is. Its a projected ray. if the ray is shooting at something it cant see, how is it damaging it? How is it even locating it? Doesnt make sense here either.

Nope, Pg 16 applies. It cant wound/damage something out of sight.

The rule was written expressly with 6th edition in mid. The codex was written by ward with 6th ruleset already near-finalized. Why do you think it takes so many new rules into account and exploits things like fliers so well?

I strongly disagree Considering that "A weapon or ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules is represented by a special rule"

I bring you to pg 50 of the Necron codex where Death Ray States (Paraphrased for tldr) Nominate a pt on the Btl Fld in the weapons range, then select a second 3d6 away. Every unit (Friend or foe) Suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models under the line.

Now If you look under the table regarding the rays stats you will notice that Range says "12" (Special)" Which would point us to its entry to determine range and effect.

Also note that on pg 7 of the rulebook, bottom right, it states "on rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in the rulebook and a rule in the codex. The codex always takes precedence."

Edit: Edited for spelling and discovery

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Undecided.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/475679.page
Eventually we came to that question after pages of debating the original but as far as I can remember the verdict was still out when the thread was locked.

Just saying. Most of the same fires being lit right now. That being said, BRB is only Overridden by codex when there is a direct clash of rules. You only replace the bits and pices of rules with the bits that they say to replace them with. You cant replace and entire rule with a fragment and vice versa unless specifically told to.

Gaussguy - brilliant, you have found a rule that deals with generating hits

Now find something that overrides page 16, which is on allowance to allocate wounds from a wound pool. If you cannot find a codex rule that overrides then guess what, page 7 does not apply

Hint: death rays say nothing about wounds, therefore the default rule applies. You can disagree all you like, it does nt alter the actual written rules.

Can I read it as:

When you fire the Death Ray ,you can nominate a point within 12" of the weapon ( this first point should be in the weapon's firing arc : 45* forward), then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first point. You count the number of the models under the line., and you get the total hits.
Then ,roll to wound as normal.
Allocate wound and saves as normal , all unsaved wounds can only be allocated to models out of arc or LOS of the firing weapon .
Like this ,you can get many hits if you roll a good result on 3D6, and then many wounds , but most of them maybe lost when most hit models are out of the weapon's arc.

yes.
Now, lets assume that is true for a moment. If you cannot wound models out of LOS, but the closest model to the weapon is out of LOS, can you wound the unit at all?

Yes, you start with the closest model within LOS.

By the way, here is the picture of max. area where you can allocate wounds from death ray:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/483284.page#4901164

Agreed... it clearly states that a vehicles LOS is measured from the weapon and is limited to the weapons firing arc.

I'm not trying to debate the rules further, all the debating has already been done on this an previous threads, all I wanna say is the codex an rulebook were written before the FAQs so why would they FAQ this the way they did..
If 3 models in a unit are under the line how many models in the unit are hit? The answer was 3 but really they should have written it more like the 3 models under the line as long as they are all in the weapons line of sight.
Like I said there is multiple entries in the FAQ about death rays yet this is still something trying to be debated.. I guess its just sit and wait for the FAQ to be updated, or has someone ever emailed the gw rules email address?

Sinny! wrote:
I'm not trying to debate the rules further, all the debating has already been done on this an previous threads, all I wanna say is the codex an rulebook were written before the FAQs so why would they FAQ this the way they did..
If 3 models in a unit are under the line how many models in the unit are hit? The answer was 3 but really they should have written it more like the 3 models under the line as long as they are all in the weapons line of sight.
Like I said there is multiple entries in the FAQ about death rays yet this is still something trying to be debated.. I guess its just sit and wait for the FAQ to be updated, or has someone ever emailed the gw rules email address?

People have, however til you get a faq from them an email is about as good as a letter from santa.

Yeah true. Really I hope the do FAQ it but make it that the entire line must start and end in los because that makes much more sense but then who knows with necron and their superior technology maybe it could shoot forward then run off in any direction. I like the idea of the line shooting backwards underneath the scythe though as I can picture it shooting its ray at the ground while zooming over a squad flying over the point where the ray 1st hit the ground

Here's an interesting tidbit. The rules for Out-of-Sight says that you cannot allocate wounds to models you can't see, but it says nothing about not being able to glance/penetrate vehicles.

So by pure RAW, the deathray can hit a unit outside of its LOS but cannot wound it. However, it that unit is a vehicle, then the deathray can hurt it.

Stupid how RAW is sometimes, isn't it?

Wait a second.... the vehicle weapons and Los only says that they need to be able to draw Los to shoot AT the enemy. The death ray doesn't shoot at an enemy it shots at the ground then draws a line any direction 3d6 also I would imagine the rules for out of range and out of sight on page 16 refers to infantry units and even if they refer to vehicles it says if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model wounds cannot be allocated to it. It does not say needs to be in the weapons Los just the units.. unless anyone can quote something to counter this then the death ray can shoot and kill anything it wants enen out of its weapons Los.


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The main argument here being that the death ray doesn't shoot at a target, however the telsa weapons have to shot AT a target the death ray hits.
So really the death ray is treated more like a 1mm x 3d6" template


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So raw I'm saying it can hit and damage whatever it wants as long as the 1st point is in the death rays 45 arc and within 12"

Page 12.

In the shooting sequence rules, read step two...

"choose a target, the unit can shoot at one enemy unit that it can see. Every model that wished to shoot must be able to see the target unit and be within range of at lease one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target or are not in range cannot shoot"

Death rays still have to declare what unit they are targeting, then test range and LOS... after this you place one point withing 12' in your 45 degree arc and the second within 3D6" of that... so a death ray still cannot target or hit a unit that it cannot see... you cant just shoot at open ground... you must declare a target first and if no enemies are in its LOS it has no legal targets

that's how I would interpret it

Juggalo17 wrote:
Page 12.

In the shooting sequence rules, read step two...


Death rays still have to declare what unit they are targeting, then test range and LOS... after this you place one point withing 12' in your 45 degree arc and the second within 3D6" of that... so a death ray still cannot target or hit a unit that it cannot see... you cant just shoot at open ground... you must declare a target first and if no enemies are in its LOS it has no legal targets

You are dead wrong on this. The death ray has permission to choose points on the battlefield. It never targets a unit.

he doesnt have necron codex so i will cut him some slack on this comment
you can shoot the deathray 1st and dont have to target anything except 1 point within 12" and the deathrays los.
The only other rule regarding targeting is that the tesla weapons must target a unit hit by the deathray

copper.talos wrote:

Juggalo17 wrote:
Page 12.

In the shooting sequence rules, read step two...


Death rays still have to declare what unit they are targeting, then test range and LOS... after this you place one point withing 12' in your 45 degree arc and the second within 3D6" of that... so a death ray still cannot target or hit a unit that it cannot see... you cant just shoot at open ground... you must declare a target first and if no enemies are in its LOS it has no legal targets

You are dead wrong on this. The death ray has permission to choose points on the battlefield. It never targets a unit.

While he's wrong about that, it doesn't change that the Scythe cannot wound target outside of his LoS.

yes outside HIS los not the weapons los

and Scythes being so high in the air should almost alwasy get los to everything

the problem is that people are obviosly mixing up the los rules with the vehicle weapons los rules and making uop their own rule from that

Sinny! wrote:
yes outside HIS los not the weapons LoS

Find permission to draw LoS from anywhere on a vehicle other than the gun.

My bad, i have only read the necron codex once.....

you are mixing up the rules my friend,
page71 vehicles and measuring distances and page72 vehicle weapons and los- it only refers to being able to shoot AT the enemy, it says nothing about causing wounds or doing damage.
actualy that whole section isnt even regarding vehicles as a unit, its just talking about the vehicles weapons los
go back to page12 and choose a target, line of sight- it only referts to targeting which the deathray does not do.
go to page16 out of sight if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, it says nothing about weapons los here.
go to page8 line of sight- line of sight literally represents your warriors view of the enemy then in bold For one model to have los to another you must be able to trace a straight unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the targets body.


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So you could argue that the warrior flying the thing clearly cant look left or right because he in in a cabin and can only really see forward.
but then you could argue a turret weapon with a closed hatch that doesnt have a commander hanging out the top cant shoot 360 as the models los it only out of the small windows at the front of the vehicle..
then i could argue both that if needed the commander can pop his head out of the hatch or the doomscythes driver could just stand up and look around or they could have some sort or radar ar targeting device to give them view, like reverse cameras on a car or the equivelant for the year 40000