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I thought the great enemies were like Tyrnids or Necrons or something kind of tied with chaos.

Can I start working with some sort of cryptec and turn myself into a necron lord or something and claim to be working on a way to bring back flesh time?

 Manchu wrote:
Anyone who thinks humans can peacefully and safely live with aliens in 40k has failed to grasp even the most basic principles of the setting.

In that you are wrong. The theme of 40K is about intolerance and grimdark, but there are a few examples of peaceful co-existence (though not necessarily on equal terms) between humans and aliens. It shows the Imperium's way is not the only way. The examples off hand include the Interex and of course the human worlds that went over to the Tau as Gue'vesa. No humans are starving. In the case of the Interex, they appeared to be doing far better than the more unequal arrangement that the Tau have with other races that join them. The example of the suspected Sensei referenced in the 3rd edition rulebook and his human and alien followers also suggest co-existence is possible. What makes 40K grimdark is not that co-existence with some aliens is impossible, but that humans and aliens alike are on the whole too bigoted to do so even when their survival might depend upon alliance and mutual aid. To have a solution but fail due to refusal to use it due to stupidity, superstition, or bigotry is more grimdark than simply having no possibility in the first place.

No matter how much it offends the sensibilities of the 40K Imperial humans, the fact is co-existence with aliens is theoretically possible as shown by these above examples. It is only a matter of dogma that the Imperium claims it isn't. In fact, the Imperium itself is not consistent as it regularly violates its own supposedly hardline ideology. The existence of diplomatic relations with Eldar (i.e. Alaitoc prior to the Beelze Conflict) and the sending of diplomats to the Tau over the struggle for Nimbosa all show the Imperium is willing to play realpolitk with the alien despite its supposed ideological intolerance.

For humanity in 40k, there is no difference between having only a slice and having nothing. Either way, we would starve to death. Therefore, if we must starve, then let us leave the rest poisoned so that hideous Chaos and the filthy xenos choke on it.

Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.

Iracundus wrote:

Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.

Waaaaaiiiit - I'm not :-) ???Seriosly, there are few guys on this forum whos hate is so pathetic that I'm wondering if they can separate fiction from real life...and btw they should add this comment into forum rules...big +1 from me...

Before someone tries and cites how aliens attacked and oppressed humanity during the Age of Strife, how is that really different from all the historical examples of stronger human polities taking advantage of weaker ones? Yet there isn't a question of humans judged fundamentally unable to co-exist with other groups of humans. The 40K human attitude towards aliens and for that matter towards artificial intelligence really is a post-traumatic reaction. 40K humans are so scared of the past repeating itself that they would rather wipe out all other aliens in the galaxy, something arguably no race save the Necrons have ever tried. The mentality of 40K humans is comparable to that of the Ur-Quan race from the Star Control universe, and for the same reason it provokes fear, loathing, and resistance in others that have to face them.

Humans in 40K have a reputation in the galaxy for shooting first and have an ideology that explicitly talks about the genocide of all others. Is it any wonder then that aliens don't welcome them? Would you welcome somebody that supported ethnic cleansing of everyone other than themselves into your neighborhood? (assuming you do not fall into the same group as the ethnic cleanser)

 DarthMarko wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.

Waaaaaiiiit - I'm not :-) ???Seriosly, there are few guys on this forum whos hate is so pathetic that I'm wondering if they can separate fiction from real life...and btw they should add this comment into forum rules...big +1 from me...

Gotta agree DarthMarko..the first person fanatic spouting can get kinda..out there. Makes me imagine some posters wearing commisar hats or marine helmets while they walk around their basements. while screaming at their minis.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.

Waaaaaiiiit - I'm not :-) ???Seriosly, there are few guys on this forum whos hate is so pathetic that I'm wondering if they can separate fiction from real life...and btw they should add this comment into forum rules...big +1 from me...

Gotta agree DarthMarko..the first person fanatic spouting can get kinda..out there. Makes me imagine some posters wearing commisar hats or marine helmets while they walk around their basements. while screaming at their minis.

Well you have to rally the men somehow.

So your asking if I would rather make a last stand for the Emperor, become some Dark God's plaything, a pawn of the Eldar, or be sterilized for for the Greater Good? Well good sir, I'd choose to die standing as a proud and loyal guardsmen.

Iracundus wrote:


Movies like Avatar show it is quite possible for human movie-goers to empathize and support non-human protagonists and to be able to view humans as antagonists, or at least not having the best way of doing things. This shows that humans are not restricted to purely siding along species lines even today. So a claim that human audiences will always side with humans in fiction is false.

I remember that film...I even got into an argument with my mother and sister, seeing as I was of the opinion the Humans should have used orbital nuclear bombardment after they lost the ground battle. Trust me, even before I came across 40k, I already had an anti-alien mindset (if only because fear and hatred of aliens would have served an excellent catalyst Humanity under a single banner).

Iracundus wrote:
Before someone tries and cites how aliens attacked and oppressed humanity during the Age of Strife, how is that really different from all the historical examples of stronger human polities taking advantage of weaker ones? Yet there isn't a question of humans judged fundamentally unable to co-exist with other groups of humans. The 40K human attitude towards aliens and for that matter towards artificial intelligence really is a post-traumatic reaction. 40K humans are so scared of the past repeating itself that they would rather wipe out all other aliens in the galaxy, something arguably no race save the Necrons have ever tried. The mentality of 40K humans is comparable to that of the Ur-Quan race from the Star Control universe, and for the same reason it provokes fear, loathing, and resistance in others that have to face them.

Humans in 40K have a reputation in the galaxy for shooting first and have an ideology that explicitly talks about the genocide of all others. Is it any wonder then that aliens don't welcome them? Would you welcome somebody that supported ethnic cleansing of everyone other than themselves into your neighborhood? (assuming you do not fall into the same group as the ethnic cleanser)

Hmmm...and? Your point is? Humans should just forgive and forget the nightmarish events of the Old Night? How foolish...as if the Human race as a whole will just forgive five thousand years of oppression.

How childish...I wonder why do people automatically assume the universe is fair and just, when its the exact opposite? To the universe, we Humans are little more than dirt. It will shed no tears for us when we are gone, just as it shed no tears for those that came before, and those that will come after. Whether in 40k or IRL, reality is a reality of survival of the fittest. Humanity must remain strong, or we will be destroyed or worse.

 Tadashi wrote:

Iracundus wrote:


Movies like Avatar show it is quite possible for human movie-goers to empathize and support non-human protagonists and to be able to view humans as antagonists, or at least not having the best way of doing things. This shows that humans are not restricted to purely siding along species lines even today. So a claim that human audiences will always side with humans in fiction is false.

I remember that film...I even got into an argument with my mother and sister, seeing as I was of the opinion the Humans should have used orbital nuclear bombardment after they lost the ground battle. Trust me, even before I came across 40k, I already had an anti-alien mindset (if only because fear and hatred of aliens would have served an excellent catalyst Humanity under a single banner).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
Before someone tries and cites how aliens attacked and oppressed humanity during the Age of Strife, how is that really different from all the historical examples of stronger human polities taking advantage of weaker ones? Yet there isn't a question of humans judged fundamentally unable to co-exist with other groups of humans. The 40K human attitude towards aliens and for that matter towards artificial intelligence really is a post-traumatic reaction. 40K humans are so scared of the past repeating itself that they would rather wipe out all other aliens in the galaxy, something arguably no race save the Necrons have ever tried. The mentality of 40K humans is comparable to that of the Ur-Quan race from the Star Control universe, and for the same reason it provokes fear, loathing, and resistance in others that have to face them.

Humans in 40K have a reputation in the galaxy for shooting first and have an ideology that explicitly talks about the genocide of all others. Is it any wonder then that aliens don't welcome them? Would you welcome somebody that supported ethnic cleansing of everyone other than themselves into your neighborhood? (assuming you do not fall into the same group as the ethnic cleanser)

Hmmm...and? Your point is? Humans should just forgive and forget the nightmarish events of the Old Night? How foolish...as if the Human race as a whole will just forgive five thousand years of oppression.

@tadashi you are "XENOPHOBIC" .-) and a prime example of a space rasist...but in 40k that's cool

 DarthMarko wrote:


@tadashi you are "XENOFOBIC" .-) and a prime example of a space rasist...but in 40k that's cool

Its 'xenophobic'. And I know...I've always known. A man can be a monster or a saint for his 'king'...I can be either for the sake of the Human race.

 DarthMarko wrote:

@tadashi you are "XENOFOBIC" .-) and a prime example of a space rasist...but in 40k that's cool

How can we not be xenophobic with such "friendly" races as Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Eldar... being our neighbours?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

@tadashi you are "XENOFOBIC" .-) and a prime example of a space rasist...but in 40k that's cool

How can we not be xenophobic with such "friendly" races as Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Eldar... being our neighbours?

Ty for the grammar correction

Who,Orkses are great !
Nid's - best friends...
Tau - fellow geeks
Dark Eldar - they know how to party

I'm jesting ofc,you guys should try to lossen up sometimes and @T -ty for the grammar correction...
...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

@tadashi you are "XENOFOBIC" .-) and a prime example of a space rasist...but in 40k that's cool

How can we not be xenophobic with such "friendly" races as Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Eldar... being our neighbours?

Who,Orkses are great !
Nid's - best friends...
Tau - fellow geeks
Dark Eldar - they know how to party

They're all meat puppets to me.

Humans being oppressed by aliens during the Age of Strife is no different from other periods of history when human states or empires were busy oppressing each other. One need only look at the blood spilled in all the European wars for the past two thousand years. England, France, Germany, and the older states that preceded these have all been drenching each other's countryside in blood for years. Yet that doesn't mean humans cannot get along with humans despite past bad blood. It is not all roses but peaceful cordial relations exist. The same goes for that period of alien domination. It is all politics. Not some fundamental inability to co-exist, at least for some aliens. Some aliens like the Tyranids and the Dark Eldar, yes it may be impossible to co-exist with. But certainly for many other minor alien species that have civilizations analogous to humans, some form of co-existence has been shown to be possible in 40K, such as the aforementioned example of the Interex. Also existent in the background is the use of alien mercenaries and even trade such as practiced by Rogue Traders. Just because you don't like co-existence doesn't mean it isn't possible.

The fact it happened shows it is not some impossibility, merely one that 40K humans, and apparently you as a real life human, refuse to countenance. Frankly I find that more disturbing since that kind of real life shoot first mentality is the kind we can precisely not afford in any sort of first contact situation. 40K humans doing so out of some post-traumatic reaction to first the Iron Men and the horrors of the Age of Strife is at least somewhat understandable if in a pitiable sort of fashion. Doing so out of some jingoistic manifest destiny and inability to comprehend or tolerate any difference is little different from what various groups have done on Earth in the past to justify their actions of conquest and genocide: demonize and objectify the outsider, thereby removing any guilt from any action done to them. For those people whose ancestors have been on the receiving end of such attitudes before, such a viewpoint is repugnant.

Iracundus wrote:
. But certainly for many other minor alien species that have civilizations analogous to humans, some form of co-existence has been shown to be possible in 40K, such as the aforementioned example of the Interex. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't possible.

And what about the rest of Humanity? Most Human civilizations suffered under xenos during the Old Night. The good of the many supersedes the needs of the few.

Frankly I find that more disturbing since that kind of real life shoot first mentality is the kind we can precisely not afford in any sort of first contact situation.

Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.

Iracundus wrote:
Doing so out of some jingoistic manifest destiny and inability to comprehend or tolerate any difference is little different from what various groups have done on Earth in the past to justify their actions of conquest and genocide: demonize and objectify the outsider, thereby removing any guilt from any action done to them. For those people whose ancestors have been on the receiving end of such attitudes before, such a viewpoint is repugnant.

Don't let idealism blind you...how can one trust something that isn't Human? Disgusting...how can you even imagine understanding something that isn't Human? Or could it be, that you really think alien life IRL will look like Earth life? The probability for that is even less than the probability of alien life existing at all.

@Iracundus

All those points stand but remember that we are talking about Humans and non- Humans here - not simply Humans and Humans.

And even if we are willing to be friendlier with our worst enemies after some time ( USA - USSR, USA - British Empire, British Empire - French Empire... ), I don't think that Orks, Eldar ( both ), Tyranids or Necrons will ever be considered friends or will ever be friendly to us as most see us as undeveloped, weak and inferior race.

For us Humans as a race the only thing we can do in 41'st millennium is stand together and fight for survival. Remember that this is not Star Trek where every race greet us with open hands - here every other race is trying to desstroy/enslave us - even Tau Empire.

When your only tools are hammers...all your problems will look like nails.

More importantly people should realize that IRL aliens will look nothing like us or like life at all here on Earth. We cannot understand them. They cannot understand us. There is no choice...we must destroy them, or they will destroy us.

 Tadashi wrote:
More importantly people should realize that IRL aliens will look nothing like us or like life at all here on Earth. We cannot understand them. They cannot understand us. There is no choice...we must destroy them, or they will destroy us.

A very human response..since humans have said that about each other, over races, religions and even nationalities in our history.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
More importantly people should realize that IRL aliens will look nothing like us or like life at all here on Earth. We cannot understand them. They cannot understand us. There is no choice...we must destroy them, or they will destroy us.

A very human response..since humans have said that about each other, over races, religions and even nationalities in our history.

You expect to understand an exotic life-form that evolved on a world with completely different biospheres than ours and as such is in no way compatible to us...what a childish expectation. And my response is very Human...because I'm Human. Should I be anything else?

And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.

If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.

Racist humans have been saying the same for every group using the same sort of rationale of "They're from so far away. They are nothing like us and cannot possible be compatible with us. There can be no understanding between us so we have to conquer/kill/civilize/enslave/whatever them."

The same was said of the Africans, Asians, the Irish. Ancient tribal people have been saying that of villages in the neighboring valley. It has ever been the tactic of racists to denigrate and objectify others, to cast them as too sub-human or alien to ever comprehend, or of having nothing worth comprehending. The differences that seemed so extreme and irreconcilable in the past have in so many instances proved surmountable. Modern nation-states are cobbled together from the union of old now defunct divisions between ethnicity, tribes, and "peoples".

 Tadashi wrote:

Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:

SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!

Consider yourself reported. If you think promoting some kind of sick twisted futuristic neo-Nazi future is somehow acceptable or even laudable....might I remind you that there are possibly many many people in this world, and maybe even this board, whose ancestors, family, or perhaps even individually would have been killed or enslaved for being sub-human in the Nazi's messed up race theory.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.

If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.

Not to mention scientifically speaking, IRL, it is virtually impossible for aliens to resemble Earth life. I'd sooner understand a cat than an alien - because the former comes from Earth.

Iracundus wrote:
Racist humans have been saying the same for every group using the same sort of rationale of "They're from so far away. They are nothing like us and cannot possible be compatible with us. There can be no understanding between us so we have to conquer/kill/civilize/enslave/whatever them."

The same was said of the Africans, Asians, the Irish. Ancient tribal people have been saying that of villages in the neighboring valley. It has ever been the tactic of racists to denigrate and objectify others, to cast them as too sub-human or alien to ever comprehend, or of having nothing worth comprehending. The differences that seemed so extreme and irreconcilable in the past have in so many instances proved surmountable. Modern nation-states are cobbled together from the union of old now defunct divisions between ethnicity, tribes, and "peoples".

They're from Earth. There's a difference between them and aliens.

 Tadashi wrote:

Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:

SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!

Consider yourself reported. If you think promoting some kind of sick twisted futuristic neo-Nazi future is somehow acceptable or even laudable....might I remind you that there are possibly many many people in this world, and maybe even this board, whose ancestors, family, or perhaps even individually would have been killed or enslaved for being sub-human in the Nazi's messed up race theory.

Impressive sentiment...but a little late, seeing as I've since edited.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.

If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.

Did I say that anywhere..at all, some can be reasoned with some cannot, much like some of the posters here on dakka...some need to be killed and some can be allies, only the truest moron makes enemies where they do not need to.

and what the hell does star trek and mass effect have to do with this, the 40k imperium has had and will have opportunites to make friends, but likely dogma and xenophobia will take it down the same path.

but last time I checked it was not a Xeno that almost destroyed the Imperium, but its best and brightest.

In the final evaluation of the 40k setting ..is it was created to allow conflict between anyone at anytime, and to sell a universe at war..logic and rational thinking were never a part of the setting, its inherit in the grimdarkness, just I think to many people like to wallow in it a bit much.

Rule Number One is Be Polite. Personal attacks are not allowed.

Post anymore crap like this and you will not post on Dakka again.

Reds8n

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

Did I say that anywhere..at all, some can be reasoned with some cannot, much like some of the posters here on dakka...some need to be killed and some can be allies, only the truest moron makes enemies where they do not need to.

No but you are implying that a lot saying that Humans are too xenophobic in this setting, witch ( when we look closely at the setting itself ) is not strange at all.

and what the hell does star trek and mass effect have to do with this

I was just giving the example of other universes and how aliens there are more peaceful and understandable than the ones in 40k.

the 40k imperium has had and will have opportunities to make friends, but likely dogma and xenophobia will take it down the same path.

As far as I remember Eldar have alliance with Inquisition, Ordo Malleus to be precise. And even the Ordo Xenos Deathwatch, the deal is Eldar help Deathwatch i nfighting soem foes like Necrons or Orks and in return Deathwatch ave the Eldar any artifact related to them.
And the last I checked Imperium actually has treaty with the Tau Empire and Tau are trading with some Imperial worlds on their frontier.
Apperantly imperium can be friendly with aliens, but only Tau and Craftworld Eldar are exampel of this. Everyone else are burn, maim, kill, torture...

but last time I checked it was not a Xeno that almost destroyed the Imperium, but its best and brightest.

That happened to Eldar to
But that happened because of Chaos influence so it was foreign intervention, Primarch themselves ( at least most of it ) were to loyal to the Emperor to rebel against him with their own will - even Horus.

In the final evaluation of the 40k setting ..is it was created to allow conflict between anyone at anytime, and to sell a universe at war..logic and rational thinking were never a part of the setting, its inherit in the grimdarkness, just I think to many people like to wallow in it a bit much.

So? Everyone fell Warhammer 40.000 in their own way, I personally see it as Mankind's darkest hour and time to get a gun and stand before the threat of annihilation. Someone fells it would be best if he was a daemon lord and slaughter entire worlds just for fun, someone see it as Tau and try to spread their Empire trough diplomacy and manipulation.
If you have problem with that than it's ok - that is your opinion. But don't attack other people for being into 40k setting to much for their are fans and they have the right to do it too ( even if that means that they shout "For the Emperor" every time they get on the street ).

Iracundus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Anyone who thinks humans can peacefully and safely live with aliens in 40k has failed to grasp even the most basic principles of the setting.

In that you are wrong. The theme of 40K is about intolerance and grimdark, but there are a few examples of peaceful co-existence (though not necessarily on equal terms) between humans and aliens.

Yes, those examples are used as a literary device, a contrast to the tragic necessity at the heart of the setting: "wouldn't it be nice if ... but no ..." It is a basic fact of the 40k universe that the most important virtues of the real world are unworkable.

Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint.

The irony here is painful. You are criticizing me for thinking about this fictional world on its own terms while you insist on applying real-world morals to the GrimDark. Here's a prime example:

Iracundus wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:

SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!

Consider yourself reported. If you think promoting some kind of sick twisted futuristic neo-Nazi future is somehow acceptable or even laudable....might I remind you that there are possibly many many people in this world, and maybe even this board, whose ancestors, family, or perhaps even individually would have been killed or enslaved for being sub-human in the Nazi's messed up race theory.

Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.

If you will kindly notice, the title of this thread is "Choose your Fate." The point is to take on the role of a human being in the 40k universe, assuming all the circumstances of the 40k universe. Please take your own advice and learn how to separate the facts from the fiction. There is no reason that people arguing from an authentic in-universe Imperial perspective should morally offend you otherwise. (Also, as a moderator, I can tell you it is not against any Dakka Dakka rules to, from an in-universe perspective, promote the genocide of fictional alien races.)

 Manchu wrote:
Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.

It is disturbing that you so easily accept such transparent excuses and backpedaling for neo-Nazi ideology. It is quite apparent to me and one other poster who has also communicated in private that this whole "Zeon" thing is just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.