DrDuckman wrote:
One thing I would suggest is, do not just assume you can overshoot your opponent and just focus on getting more and move big guns.

I've killed gunline Tau with shooty Orks several times, and without getting into melee, simply because he did not bring enough anti infantry, and assumed the pulse rifles will do it.

That being said, and I hate to say it, if you care about power at all, you might consider going Imperial Guard instead, or possibly Dark Eldar, they seem better shooting. Even eldar can do some really respectable firepower. Tau do the best Anti Tank in the game, but they'll need the new codex to be competitive for anything else, especially now that mech lists seem to be dropping out of favor.

Veskrashen wrote:
Some thoughts:

1. Tau have 3-4 major holes in their army, from a combat role standpoint: assault/counter-assault, anvil units, independently capable units, and flyer counters. Their 'assault' troops, Kroot, can throw a lot of attacks on the charge - and get mowed down in droves in return. There are exactly 2 units in the entire codex with a 2+ save: Broadsides, which are generally sitting in the backfield, and a single commander, who has to sacrifice his mobility to get it. And those aren't true anvil units, in that neither of them really want to invite a lot of attention. Third, just about every single unit in the codex needs help from somewhere else - either low BS, limited ability to impact things outside of their intended role, etc. Finally, there are exactly zero anti-flyer units in the codex - which means you need to rely on a Quadcannon, which pins you to a static position at least part of the time.

2. Aside from vehicles with Disruption Pods, Tau can be amazingly fragile. T3 4+ is pretty easy to hammer down, and with Ld7 on average, Tau don't tend to stick around once they start getting pounded. Most of your opponents won't really bother throwing AP4 shots at you, either - they'll just throw enough of whatever that you'll break and run. Even Crisis Suits, with their T4 3+ and 2W each, can be amazingly fragile. Lots of your opponents will gear up to be able to handle MEQ to begin with, and with only 4-6 3+ wounds in your Crisis unit, it doesn't take much shooting to knock one down - and force you to break and run. Ld8 max outside of HQs can really suck, especially when you lack ATSKNF.

3. Tau firepower can be easily overestimated. For example, everyone thinks that Railguns are the end-all, be-all of anti-armor. And to some extent it's true - until you run the numbers and see that it takes a Hammerhead on average of 9 shots to get that vaunted AP1 auto-explode. On average, a Hammerhead will need to fire 9 shots to kill a Land Raider out of cover. 30" Pulse Rifles are amazing - until you remember that they're BS3, and anything with a 5+ save generally brings more bodies than you can easily generate shots to take out. Tau have exactly 2 large blast templates, and flamers come only in the standard variety, no Heavy Flamers for us.

4. Expensive, points-wise. Guard Chimeras used to be as expensive as our Devilfish in 4th ed, but got dropped 30pts in cost with their update to 5th. 10pt FWs made sense back in 4th; not so much these days, when every 5th ed codex got offensive and defensive grenades, plus a sergeant, for either the same points cost as before or even a point reduction. There's a few units in the 'dex that are fairly priced, or even comparatively cheap; the vast majority are very points-inefficient for what they do. We pay through the nose for our special weapons on the Crisis Suits, and they're really the only place to get them. This means that at any particular point level, you're generally going to be fielding compartively less firepower and resilience than anyone with an updated 5th/6th ed codex.

5. The 'net isn't very kind to those who stray from the Tau Orthodoxy. If you're not taking lots of Railguns (generally 2x Hammerheads and 2-3x Broadsides), and using Fireknives for your Elites, you're wrong in the worst most heretical way possible. Be prepared to hear a lot of the same criticisms of your lists over and over again - especially if you take Kroot, or Sniper Drones, or Vespid, or...

On the other hand...

1. Tau have the amazing ability to mass firepower pretty much wherever they need it. Their basic troops have a 30" threat range; Broadsides and Hammerheads can hammer armor from 72-84" away. Our Crisis and Stealth Suits have amazing mobility, and our transports are probably the best in the game at the moment aside from their cost. You're damn near as mobile as a Dark Eldar army, and when meched up you're a helluva lot more resilient. It's a glorious moment when you roll up 2 DFish, dump out 24 FWs, get a bit of markerlight support, and thrown down 48 rapid-fire S5 shots on some poor bastard at BS 4/5. Then clean up with the Crisis that were waiting in the wings.

2. Oh, that mobility that I mentioned? Yeah. Our vehicles are probably the most survivable in the game at the moment - screw AV14, we're skimmers with DPods, baby. If you move, and your opponent is shooting at you from more than 12" away, you'll be getting a 3+ cover save on an AV12/13 hull. 2+ cover save if you flat out that turn, which I often end up doing with my DFish. That means that on average, a squad of Long Fangs shooting at a Hammerhead with Krak Missiles will strip less than 1/3 of a hull point per turn. Psyflemen do about as well. Granted, you still get munched on when someone assaults your vehicles, or gets inside of 12" - I lose mine to HayWyches or deep striking melta, more often than anything else. Or TH/SS Termies when I'm using them as blockers.

3. More on mobility - our main source of specialty dakka, the Crisis Suit, is incredible in this regard. First, it can Deep Strike, and gets rerolls for the scatter if there's a Pathfinder DFish with LOS, or you've got Tetras. You move 6" then another 2d6" in the assault phase, all day every day, which means you can get in position to take the shots you need, then move to avoid the retaliation. If you're playing a mech list, it's trivial to build a list where everything can move at least 12" per turn; in the hands of someone who matches well with that playstyle, that can be deadly in and of itself.

4. Want to play gunline? No problem. Take an Aegis, throw it down as a single line with a Quadcannon on the end. Take 72 FWs with Shas'uis, then 6 Broadsides with Blacksun Filters and a Shas'el Commander with something cheap. Will run you about 1400pts - but you'll basically be bringing 24 Heavy Bolters and 6 Railguns to the table. BSides pop the transports, and FWs massacre what's inside. Not hard to counter, sure, but it's definitely a solid base to start brainstorming from.

5. Specialty reigns with the Tau. Pretty much each unit in the codex has a specific role that it's optimal at - find that, and take that into consideration. In this case, I consider the different potential Crisis suit loadouts to be different codex entries, almost. TLMP/BSF suits play very differently and have a different role than TLFL/FB suits, for instance. Forgeworld changes things up a lot, too - XV9s have some amazing options, and the alternate turrets for the Hammerheads really change the dynamics of the Heavy Support slots. Tetras are a total gamechanger as well - relatively survivable, more mobile markerlights without the PF DFish tax.

Oh, last tip I'd give for building a Tau list - pick your Crisis Suits LAST. Fill up your Troops, Heavy, and possibly Fast choices first, see what they're missing capability-wise (anti-horde, anti-MEQ, anti-armor, etc) and load your Crisis Suits up to fill that gap. That's really what they're there for - to be the specialist unit that does what the rest of your army can't - and has the mobility to get to where it needs to be done.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I ran two builds that worked extremely well.
2 small kroot squads for going to ground on objectives, and everyone else in a transport OR
Not a single vehicle and lots of battle suits and infantry.

6-12 firewarriors with EMP, a devil fish, and drones makes a pretty good unit.
Drones are greatly under-rated. Just using them to move out and get in the way is awesome for the rest of the army. They will never survive hand to hand or shooting, but that fact that you can get an extra unit with each troops choice is pretty sweet.

-Matt

 Guilldog wrote:
This is prolly by far the most useful and constructive post ive gotten about the tau, Thanks man really gave me some insite.

Veskrashen wrote:
Some thoughts:

4. Want to play gunline? No problem. Take an Aegis, throw it down as a single line with a Quadcannon on the end. Take 72 FWs with Shas'uis, then 6 Broadsides with Blacksun Filters and a Shas'el Commander with something cheap. Will run you about 1400pts - but you'll basically be bringing 24 Heavy Bolters and 6 Railguns to the table. BSides pop the transports, and FWs massacre what's inside. Not hard to counter, sure, but it's definitely a solid base to start brainstorming from.

rushwingate wrote:

Veskrashen wrote:
Some thoughts:

4. Want to play gunline? No problem. Take an Aegis, throw it down as a single line with a Quadcannon on the end. Take 72 FWs with Shas'uis, then 6 Broadsides with Blacksun Filters and a Shas'el Commander with something cheap. Will run you about 1400pts - but you'll basically be bringing 24 Heavy Bolters and 6 Railguns to the table. BSides pop the transports, and FWs massacre what's inside. Not hard to counter, sure, but it's definitely a solid base to start brainstorming from.

I am currently working a tournament style army based on this exact concept. I have 6 full squads with a shas'ui so I get the Ld 8 instead of 7, and I run 3 units of 2 broadsides with target locks, so not only do I have 6 twin-linked rails, but I can target 6 individual units if the need arises. Its a good list and Im working out the kinks. Originally I had 2 pathfinder squads for marking targets and was using their mandator D-Fish and a mobile screen. After a few games Im beginning to question the worth of their points value. I was also running a commander and a 3 man crisis squad as a single unit and deep striking them behind the enemy for some twin linked plasma annoyance.

What Ive done since is replace the commander with Shadowsun, and plan to put her behind the aegis so that her command link drone will give pretty much every unit Ld 10 to prevent breaking. Ive replaced the pathfinders with 5 stealth suits to flank from cover becasue they are almost impossible to kill, and burst cannons (and pulse rifles for that matter) are great for glancing transports to death.

You seem to be an experieced Tau player, what do you think of the above idea?

rushwingate wrote:
Thanks so much for your ideas and letting me pick your brain. I personally dont believe that the Tau are as fragile as most think they are, its just harder to find that right mix of units and its not a very forgiving codex if you dont get that mix right, but thats where the challenge comes in that I love.

Veskrashen wrote:
The Tau turrets can be really, really evil if done right.

TLMP turrets weigh in at a measly 30pts - and are tough as nails behind an Aegis. TL Fusion ones are less useful, IMO, since as static artillery pieces they're easy to avoid. TL Plasma has potential as well, but may not be worth the price. TLBC isn't worth taking IMO, especially for the $$ price of the turrets themselves - you've got a billion more efficient ways to get S5 shots with Tau.

The other sick idea I'd had was giving the turrets Deep Strike and a Disruption Pod, then DSing them into terrain on your opponent's backfield or flank. TLMP vs side or rear armor works well, and T7 3+ with a 3+ cover save is just ridiculously difficult to dislodge. May or may not be worth the points, but could be incredibly distracting at the very least.

 Guilldog wrote:
Yes i though about this but being that they are considered a troop choice i believe they have to follow the same coheirncy rules and deployment rules as troops, meaning if you took a unit of two and deployed them via deep strike youd place the first one and have to place the second one right next to you just like you would deep striking terminators or something of a simular nature. where as if you start with them on the field then you can spread them the full two inches and if you take 8 of them now you have 16+ inches of the board covered with your turrets you know what i mean

rushwingate wrote:
Most tourneys don't allow the FW turrets, however even with a lowly fire warrior operating the quad gun, the twin linking still make a nasty. Im going to explore some of the ideas above and see how they play out this weekend. I'm lucky enough to be good friends with one of the top ranked SoB players in the country and he is always willing to run against me so I can test different things out.

Veskrashen wrote:

Sample list for 1500, using the concepts above:

Shadowsun
12 FWs
12 FWs
9 FWs, including 'Ui with Markerlight, HW Target Lock, and HW BSF
9 FWs, including 'Ui with ML, HWTL, HWBSF
3x Sniper Drone Teams
3 Broadsides with TLPR, one with BSF, others with Target Locks
3 Broadsides with TLPR, one with BSF, others with Target Locks
Aegis w/ Quadcannon

Totals up to 1497pts. Gives you 42 FWs, Shadowsun, 9 Rail Rifles - all with Target Locks, 6 TL Railguns, 6 TL Plasma Rifles, and Shadowsun. Plus the Quadcannon.