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 Reecius wrote:
Yeah, I never understood why so many people play hills as area terrain. They weren't difficult in 5th, either. They have always been open terrain. And besides, from a logical point of view, hahaha, standing on top of a hill certainly doesn't make you harder to shoot!

Indeed! I think I was playing them as DT just out of habit. No idea why 5th was played like that. Forests were weird too. I couldn't get anyone to agree to treat forests as 5+ cover.

And that reminds me, I forgot another one. The top 8 tables (and I'm sure others) had a large forest, treated as area terrain (requiring a DT test), either in the table center or slightly offset from the center. My Screamers charged through those woods many times.

That's a good point, Allan. The only impassable terrain on the tables were those tiny little "white spots of death." A few one inch circles of impassable terrain hardly scare anyone away from deepstriking.

 Reecius wrote:
I predict that these rules will only be an issue until January or so, when the new Daemon books come out. I am willing to bet they lose EW and Fearless, as the BRB defines Daemons as not having either, and the CSM Daemon units didn't have those rules, either.

Flamers went way down in points and are now stupidly good for what you pay.

Daemons won Brawl in the Fall and took a second high placing as well, and they also won a 40 person GT in Ireland recently as well. All of them heavily featured Tzeentch Daemons.

I like that Daemons are better, but Flamers and Screamers are a bit too much in the current rules. Now that you can't fully reserve and with most folks not taking Mech, it is brutal if you deploy poorly. Flamers are damn near impossible to assault, too, for many armies.

My question though, is how did these armies do against an Air Force list? I think that would be a very difficult match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and a big congratz to the winner! Well played!

Daemons also won the Midwest Massacre GT in September with a similar build except more flamers via double force org .

I actually did okay against the new daemons on day 1 with my IG/SoB(W/ Celestine)
Game one: 60 Points against standard daemon list
Game two: 38 Points against Drop pod Space marines
Game three: 46 Points against GK/Eldar
Game four: 100 points against standard daemon list + Fateweaver/Lord of change

I ended day one 4-0 with 244 points which wasnt enough to make the top bracket by I think one point. My list was strong but as stated above lacked the ability to really table anyone and it was hard to win kill points in every other mission.

Day 2
Defended the top table once vs AirCrons/Orks and then lost a close game against Crons/GK.

All in all it was a fun event. I definitely prefer W/L over battle points but they made it work here. The win loss for day two was battle point based so in some missions you could actually outscore your opponents in 2 of the 3 missions but still lose the mission. Other then that I had nothing to say about the event and had some of the best judges I have seen at an event all year.

I'd dare say that he's just being obtuse.

@Whigwam

Yeah, there were a lot of things that only gave a 5+ and NO ONE played it that way! haha

@Tomb King

Damn dude, Daemons are going crazy! Hahaha. I think it will be as much tactics as list that overcomes this trend. They are damn good, but we're already brainstorming some ideas to fight them. We luckily have a full time Daemon player on the team so we get lots of practice.

Well done on doing so well.

What were some of your tactics against the Daemons? I am curious as you seem to have done quite well against them.

Reece,

I still think daemons are going to have a tough time with Necron flyers. It all depends on the first drop and what is on the table but they have no real way if they double,down on Flamers and screamers. Flamers and Screamers are also under costed for what they do. Wolf and I were talking about it today and you basically need to,be ale to cause at least 164 wounds roughly to take the, down which I don't think any army out there could produce on a level as your talking close to 300 dice to,get the hits in either melee or shooting.

There is some serious game balance issues already with 6th. I hope they get addressed soon otherwise the game is going to be in a troubling state.

Sorry for misspellings and errors posting on phone.

My problem isn't with the power level of certain factions or units. In a faction based game with over 10 factions you are always going to have some issues since the factions are updated piecemeal instead of all at once(like in Warmachine or Hordes).

The problem is that these lists deform the environment/meta. They absolutely ruin average armies. Your list has to have a chance to be able to deal with CronAir, Daemons that the GW studio probably isn't playing with EW anymore, IG, etc? Yeah right that's not going to happen. It's not like when Nob Bikers came out and you could just change your list around to take them out. That was one list and it was easily beat. Now it seems like there are a bunch of Actual monster armies.

GW has really dropped the ball. Why did they release these point costs for the Daemons? Assuming they are taking EW away from them(it seems it is a disassociative rule and they are getting away from that) it is just plain sloppy to release them with points that don't take EW into effect.

 Reecius wrote:
@Whigwam

Yeah, there were a lot of things that only gave a 5+ and NO ONE played it that way! haha

@Tomb King

Damn dude, Daemons are going crazy! Hahaha. I think it will be as much tactics as list that overcomes this trend. They are damn good, but we're already brainstorming some ideas to fight them. We luckily have a full time Daemon player on the team so we get lots of practice.

Well done on doing so well.

What were some of your tactics against the Daemons? I am curious as you seem to have done quite well against them.

I actually learned how to play the game against a friend who ran fate crusher religiously. So I actually really like my odds against daemons most of the time as I haven't lost to daemons in almost 2 years. I will try to get some brief battle reports up later this week but my main strategy was dakkadakkadakka they are after all only T4 models. The biggest threat to me were the flamers. The screamers are kind of mean but people always turbo boost and leave them tightly packed. When people deep strike flamers in they usually put them close and flame on turn 1. As a guard player that again leaves you in a tightly packed formation and easy to hit with flamers and other templates. If possible I tie the flamers up in combat somehow they can at max do 27 wall of death attacks. However, on average they should cause around 6 wounds. The trick is to multi-charge them. In my game one I charged them with 3 sisters which he killed but celestine made it into combat with them and tied the flamers up for the game with her 2+/4++.

Main strategy I use for the current daemons is castle and if I go first spread out enough to give my opponent a small window to deep strike in my ranks(hoping for a mishap or accepting the easy kill if he gets only 1 unit in the window) and max firepower on one target until its dead and then move to the next threat. In game 4 my opponent brought in fateweaver. I weakened fate weavers resolve with the PBS and then used the hydra flak tanks and other dakka to cause one wound and instant gibbed fateweaver turn 1. Daemons are still weak to mech builds that have a lot of firepower. I will put more in my battle reports but that is the general strategy I follow.

Lasguns with first rank fire second rank fire really takes a toll on a T4 5++ and T3 4++ army.

Also plague zombies are great for tying up both screamers and flamers in combat.

@Darkwynn

I agree 100%. I think Flyers are going to have a lot of answers to Daemons. So long as they don't get tabled turn 1, I don't see Daemons winning that fight often.

I think that there are big balance issues in 40K, but when isn't there? I am building all of my lists towards balance these days. I take enough of everything to counter the main lists (I hope).

I think that is what the best players will be doing as it doesn't leave you with the huge vulnerabilities that spam lists have. Well, the vulnerabilities are huge in the sense that if someone has the counter to your one or two weaknesses, you are toast. The balanced lists may not have the raw power, but they do have consistency which is what I look for in a tournament winning army.

@Tomb King

I agree. I play Daemons a lot and deployment is everything against them. You have to dictate where they drop and if you can do that and survive the initial kick to the nuts, you can often take them down.

RoF is the best bet too, as the invul save doesn't mean anything.

Big Bird is a bastard, but if you can get that one shot, one kill on him, he is a massive liability. PBS/Hydras are pretty much his worst enemy! haha

I would be very interested in seeing a bat rep with more details if you have time to write one up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I find that Daemon don’t make any sense at the best of times. Now they’re benefiting from ADL Comms? That’s just absurd...

They aren't meant to make sense, ever... isn't that they're point?

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I agree 100%. I think Flyers are going to have a lot of answers to Daemons. So long as they don't get tabled turn 1, I don't see Daemons winning that fight often.

I think that there are big balance issues in 40K, but when isn't there? I am building all of my lists towards balance these days. I take enough of everything to counter the main lists (I hope).

I think that is what the best players will be doing as it doesn't leave you with the huge vulnerabilities that spam lists have. Well, the vulnerabilities are huge in the sense that if someone has the counter to your one or two weaknesses, you are toast. The balanced lists may not have the raw power, but they do have consistency which is what I look for in a tournament winning army.

@Tomb King

I agree. I play Daemons a lot and deployment is everything against them. You have to dictate where they drop and if you can do that and survive the initial kick to the nuts, you can often take them down.

RoF is the best bet too, as the invul save doesn't mean anything.

Big Bird is a bastard, but if you can get that one shot, one kill on him, he is a massive liability. PBS/Hydras are pretty much his worst enemy! haha

I would be very interested in seeing a bat rep with more details if you have time to write one up.

Which means its going to come down to match ups more and more know and hope you don't draw that one hard counter list. I don't know if that will be good for the game in the long run. We will have to wait and see but I think this is going to have negative impact on the game over all.

@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

My list was built to win games not table. It was pretty balanced but it could not table opponents. I only tabled one and that is bound to happen sometimes with even a balanced list. The only army I was really afraid of was Deathwing it it has so many hard counters that I wasnt too worried about running into them. One thing is certain. I didnt really see any mech GK list this last weekend. Its like all the GK players disappeared or are only running them as allies.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

My list was built to win games not table. It was pretty balanced but it could not table opponents. I only tabled one and that is bound to happen sometimes with even a balanced list. The only army I was really afraid of was Deathwing it it has so many hard counters that I wasnt too worried about running into them. One thing is certain. I didnt really see any mech GK list this last weekend. Its like all the GK players disappeared or are only running them as allies.

There was one from our Austin crew Tomb King but he had to play Goatboy and they both knocked each other out.

Darkwynn wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

My list was built to win games not table. It was pretty balanced but it could not table opponents. I only tabled one and that is bound to happen sometimes with even a balanced list. The only army I was really afraid of was Deathwing it it has so many hard counters that I wasnt too worried about running into them. One thing is certain. I didnt really see any mech GK list this last weekend. Its like all the GK players disappeared or are only running them as allies.

There was one from our Austin crew Tomb King but he had to play Goatboy and they both knocked each other out.

That is basically what me and Blackmoor did in round 3. We played game three of battle points and I knew neither of us were probably gonna get many points from the match.

anyone know what the top 8 nid list looked like?

TheContortionist wrote:anyone know what the top 8 nid list looked like?

I played it on day two, so here it is to the best of my memory (and I'm probably going to overlook a truckload of upgrades---Nids are the army I'm least familiar with):

2x Flyrant (one taking BRB powers)
2x Tervigon (both taking BRB powers)
3x Trygon
2x 20 Termagants
2x 20 Gargoyles
Doom of Malantai / Mycetic Spore

Again, not quite sure of any upgrades (and I'm guessing the big gribblies all had some). But I think that covers all the units used.

I want to mention again that this was one of the toughest matchups I faced. Very strong player, very strong list. I think people can throw the notion that "Tyranids are dead" on the rubbish heap along with "assault is dead" and "transports are dead."

thanks man. do you remember if the guy you played was named matt? guessing from the list i'm thinking no. but the three trygons make me think it's him.

I'm terrible with names, so I'm not sure... His army was painted in a very distinctive neon green if that helps.

The top 8 nid player was Rob O'Byrne. The list up there is correct on models. Upgrades were a little off.

One hive tyrant had preferred enemy. Both had single devourers.

The two tervigon's were not upgraded (no poison, furious charge or crushing claws).

The reason why whigwam had such a rough time is because Rob is the nid player I regulary beat up on with my daemons and I've been helping him to come up with counter tactics for the nids .

How many orks showed up? (pure orks that is!)


Any idea what the top lists there looked like?


(or the lists using orks as primary/allies)


Thanks!

skyfi wrote:
How many orks showed up? (pure orks that is!)


Any idea what the top lists there looked like?


(or the lists using orks as primary/allies)


Thanks!

I have a feeling Orks didn't make it very far in the invitational.

 matphat wrote:

skyfi wrote:
How many orks showed up? (pure orks that is!)


Any idea what the top lists there looked like?


(or the lists using orks as primary/allies)


Thanks!

I have a feeling Orks didn't make it very far in the invitational.

That is a shame really.

There were no orks in the top 8. The winner of the second bracket was a necron player with ork allies (meganobz, ghaz, grots, and a battlewagon).

There were a few necron/ork alliances but I didn't see the green represent that much.

IIRC, a pure-Ork army won Armies on Parade. So there was at least one pure-Ork player out there. Not sure how he did in the rankings, but his army was gorgeous to look at.

My Necrorks had a rough time, mostly due to incompetent command

Funny thing, Orks are probably one of the armies best equipped to go to town on those scary Daemons. Lots of Fearless bodies, lots of shots and lots of attacks.

@Chumby

I agree. Most of the Ork foot armies I'm looking at are ridiculous in the current environment.

Agreed. I think orks are pretty good. I was considering a list like this (not sure how many points total).

PK Warboss
KFF Big Mek
3x15 lootas
6x30 shoota boys
3x dakkajets

Probably need to scale that down to get to 2K.

 jy2 wrote:
Agreed. I think orks are pretty good. I was considering a list like this (not sure how many points total).

PK Warboss
KFF Big Mek
3x15 lootas
6x30 shoota boys
3x dakkajets

Probably need to scale that down to get to 2K.

Good framework and what I'd expect to see as well, though I think the above is between 2500 and 2600 points, so a significant amount would have to be cut

Target wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Agreed. I think orks are pretty good. I was considering a list like this (not sure how many points total).

PK Warboss
KFF Big Mek
3x15 lootas
6x30 shoota boys
3x dakkajets

Probably need to scale that down to get to 2K.

Good framework and what I'd expect to see as well, though I think the above is between 2500 and 2600 points, so a significant amount would have to be cut

Thought so. In that case, drop about 5 lootas from each unit, 1 dakkajet and if necessary, downgrade 1 unit of boys to 1 unit of gretchins for objective camping.