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As above, what happens in that case? Assuming Kharn assaulted while in a unit of Bezerkers, but is dueling the enemy champion?

The Betrayer ability in the codex states that when he rolls a 1 to hit, those attacks go to a random friendly model locked in the same combat. However, isn't a duel considered a separate combat? If so, what happens to those attacks?

I've been kinda assuming they all count as one combat, but now I am not so sure. Anyone know?

Separate combat as far as I know.. So Kharn's allies are safe.

...for now

I just reread the codex and will check back later with a better answer.

New answer... I'm now under the impression that he would, in fact, hurt friends in the same combat.

He is engaged in the challenge but is still in a normal/multiple "combat" so long as friendlies are in there too.

I'd say the challenge is part of the same combat therefore kharn would kill a friendly zerk.

Yep, it only says he is in base combat with the challenged character or whatever.

If dudes are in range, he can still make them "take naps".

Even with that he is a great HQ, and since his warlord trait (if you choose him as warlord) lets him reroll those nasty 1s, if you roll 1s and the reroll is 1 as well that zerk was doomed beyond salvation

Kharn should try to avoid the challenges on the first turn thou, rather hit the unit with all his high str low ap attacks, i'd try to sacrifice the zerk champ even to the enemy's HQ, Kharn and the rest of the zerks can take out any unit leaving only the enemy HQ if he accepts the champion's challenge, next phase kharn issues a new challenge, enemy HQ accepts it and now kharn will probably get 1-2 rerolls due to the get'im boss! rule

Yeah dude.. He's just....

Just awful.

Awful as in good clean fun.

While I would agree with everyone here, a technicality in the FAQ means that Kharn's "friendly hits" are lost, as they cannot be allocated:

WH40k FAQ wrote:Q: Can Wounds caused by a character in a challenge only be
allocated to the opposing character in the challenge? (p64)
A: Yes.

Kharn is not allowed to allocate wounds to friendly models, as that would violate "only allocating wounds to the opposing character."

As above. Same unit still, however wounds cannot be allocated outside of the challenge.

 Xca|iber wrote:
While I would agree with everyone here, a technicality in the FAQ means that Kharn's "friendly hits" are lost, as they cannot be allocated:

WH40k FAQ wrote:Q: Can Wounds caused by a character in a challenge only be
allocated to the opposing character in the challenge? (p64)
A: Yes.

Kharn is not allowed to allocate wounds to friendly models, as that would violate "only allocating wounds to the opposing character."

Hmm fluffwise I see Kharn being pretty pissed about this.

I was looking for this FAQ when I had gotten sidetracked.

Interesting, didn't consider the faq

I would say that Codex > BRB on this and Karn would kill a zerk.

40k-noob wrote:
I would say that Codex > BRB on this and Karn would kill a zerk.

Only there's no codex rule here to overrule the BRB.

The codex says that rolls to hit of a 1 hit a friendly in the same combat. BRB FAQ says that wounds caused whilst in a challenge can only be allocated to the opposing character in the challenge. Nothing in the codex rule deals with the wounds that come from those hits, so technically, he does hit people outside the challenge, but any wounds caused can never be allocated.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I would say that Codex > BRB on this and Karn would kill a zerk.

Only there's no codex rule here to overrule the BRB.

The codex says that rolls to hit of a 1 hit a friendly in the same combat. BRB FAQ says that wounds caused whilst in a challenge can only be allocated to the opposing character in the challenge. Nothing in the codex rule deals with the wounds that come from those hits, so technically, he does hit people outside the challenge, but any wounds caused can never be allocated.

ahh yes, that would still apply.

Codex>BRB would allow for the hit to go to a friendly but the rule doesn't say anything about wounding so no wound can go on the friendly.

Funny thing is i just looked at Karn's entry in the codex and say he rolls a 1, still nothing happens!!!

His weapon says it always hits on a 2+ even if the hits would automatically hit otherwise !! So his initial 1 is still a miss to the friendly regardless of the Betrayer rule (auto hit)!

 Xca|iber wrote:
While I would agree with everyone here, a technicality in the FAQ means that Kharn's "friendly hits" are lost, as they cannot be allocated:

WH40k FAQ wrote:Q: Can Wounds caused by a character in a challenge only be
allocated to the opposing character in the challenge? (p64)
A: Yes.

Kharn is not allowed to allocate wounds to friendly models, as that would violate "only allocating wounds to the opposing character."

It's a stretch, by the same token you could claim Mind Shackle Scarabs don't do anything in a challenge, because allocating wounds to your own character violates that FAQ, a healthy dose of logic and being reasonable would suggest it's more likely that FAQ just means, under normal circumstances wounds can't be applied to units outside the challenge, but exceptional circumstances can still make exception to that norm.

Kharn would be such a circumstance.

Kharne's ability is a special rule outside normal wound allocation. I'd say it still works.

What about Typhus destroyer hive or the black mace? Wouldn't those special abilities override normal wound allocation even in a challenge?

Kevlar wrote:
Kharne's ability is a special rule outside normal wound allocation. I'd say it still works.

What about Typhus destroyer hive or the black mace? Wouldn't those special abilities override normal wound allocation even in a challenge?

Yeah? I've wondered about Typus too, as I'll be using him for the first time in 6e next week

 Lobukia wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Kharne's ability is a special rule outside normal wound allocation. I'd say it still works.

What about Typhus destroyer hive or the black mace? Wouldn't those special abilities override normal wound allocation even in a challenge?

Yeah? I've wondered about Typus too, as I'll be using him for the first time in 6e next week

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/485022.page

Last weeks topic IIRC ^^

Kharn wouldn't get to reroll his 1's either surely, as that counts as modifying it?

A reroll is not a modifier, according to page 2. A modifier is a multiplier, addition or subtraction

Rerolling to hit is not a modifier.

Kharn wouldn't get the reroll anyway, since Hatred requires that the model misses with his attacks. The Betrayer rule states that rolls of 1 to hit cause "automatic hits" on friendly models, so does not satisfy the requirement that Kharn has missed with his attacks.

What happens when Kharn rolls a 1 to hit during a duel?

Someone dies.

In all seriousness though, as much as I wish it didn't I believe it does, while challenges are in a sense 'removed' from the combat they are still duelling in the midst of friends and foes alike, their comrades are simply honourable enough or too busy to intervene, but someone like Kharn I imagine would take the chance to kill if it came along, even during a duel

From a fluff perspective and a rules perspective, I think it makes sense. I'm not saying it definetly should happen just that I think it does.

I've been playing Kharn for a while and thats what I've been doing, it does suck I admit and I'm quite welcome for someone to prove me wrong as I'm sick of Kharn killing more friends than enemies

 Cheexsta wrote:
Kharn wouldn't get the reroll anyway, since Hatred requires that the model misses with his attacks. The Betrayer rule states that rolls of 1 to hit cause "automatic hits" on friendly models, so does not satisfy the requirement that Kharn has missed with his attacks.

You are missing an attack by rolling a 1 thou, since the codex also says "Kharn's melee attacks always hit on a 2+ (even if they would otherwise hit atomatically)" if you didn't hit then you miss. So by rolling a 1 you miss the attack. You get to use hatred to reroll those dice, if a 1 comes up again then the betrayer rule makes it an automatic hit against a friendly model

I'm with yayula, did you roll to hit the other character?
Did the result allow you to hit that character? If not you failed to hit that character and are entitled to re-roll the dice.
I think Kharn is a little broken seeing as it's a 35/36 chance of hitting in the first turn of cc but that is what the rules say.

A re-roll also ignores the previous roll.

Not sure about the re-rolls here. I thought the OP had Karn in CC with another enemy champion?

Hatred is only against Loyalist SM not other Chaos Champions.


Aside from that, Karn is in dire need of a FAQ.

Betrayer Rule says 1's auto hit a friendly
Gorefiend says his attacks always hit on a 2+ even if they otherwise would hit automatically.

So a roll of 1 goes on a friendly but still misses because of Gorefiend's always hits on a 2 even if it would auto hit rule ?!?!

Hatred is a USR. Hatred(space marines) makes it aimed at space marines.
Hatred incarnate just gives the USR.

Gorechild requires you to make the roll to hit so that you risk taking a mook out even if it's an immobilised vehicle or something like that you are trying to hit.

Kharn randomly hits a friendly in the same combat, even in a challenge, as it's still the same combat, only acting like a mini multi-assault.

If Kharn alone charges the back of unit A, and some berzerkers multi- charge unit A and unit B, then Kharn will have his ones hit allies.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Hatred is a USR. Hatred(space marines) makes it aimed at space marines.
Hatred incarnate just gives the USR.

got it.

I misread that.

Thanks.