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I have a theory that the Traitor Legions are defined by an archetypal contradiction and that they fell because they were unable to deal with the attendant psychological and moral conflict. Here are my specific postulates:

III. Emperor's Children: Perfection v. Flaw
The exacting standards to which Fulgrim held himself and his legion proved a path into obsession. The Emperor's Children eagerly turned from rigorous self-cultivation to the excesses of self-debasement and the Phoenician himself vanished into possession.

IV. Iron Warriors: Security v. Paranoia
Perturabo distrusted the affections of his adoptive father, ultimately overthrowing him and seizing the rule of Olympia only to later devastate it while stamping out rebellion. The Iron Warriors neurotic fascination with constructing and breaching fortification mirrors their Primarch's lack of trust.

VIII. Night Lords: Determinism v. Free Will
Konrad Curze was so certain in his foreknowledge that the Emperor would murder him that he worked to incur the Emperor's wrath and allowed himself to be assassinated. In the wake of Night Haunter's death, the Night Lords slid into aimless ruin.

XII. World Eaters: Slavery v. Freedom
The Emperor denied Angron the gladiator-slave his freely-chosen death such that the word Primarch seemed but another shackle. The Red Angel re-made the XII Legion to throw off restraint in the fires of rage, thus dooming them to serve the Blood God.

XIV. Death Guard: Life v. Death
Ill-named Mortarion fought against death incarnate on Barbarus -- and lost only to be saved by the Emperor. In the face of similar defeat, the Reaper turned to the Plague God and as the price for endless life he and his legion are endlessly dying.

XV. Thousand Sons: Knowledge v. Ignorance
The mind of Magnus sought the farthest corners of both Materium and Immaterium yet what the Cyclops failed to learn overshadowed everything he managed to glean. The fruit as well as the dearth of his efforts cost the Thousand Sons dearly.

XVI. Sons of Horus: Loyalty v. Treachery
Of all his brothers, none so comprehended the grand sweep of their father's ambition as Horus Lupercal did. Believing that the Emperor intended to betray these goals, the Warmaster of needs rebelled and his devoted Sons pledged themselves to eternal revolt.

XVII. Word Bearers: Faith v. Doubt
In rejecting the adoration of Lorgar, the Emperor proved how fragile the Primarch's beliefs really were. At the center of the Word Bearers fanatical devotion to Chaos remains an infinitely bitter misgiving that Aurellian was originally correct.

XX. Alpha Legion: Truth v. Deception
Even the identity of the Primarch of the Alpha Legion is a source of ambiguity: it is no surprise these warriors delight in reverse double dealing. But can they themselves tell the difference between fact and fiction anymore?

Cool. I got some too.

I. Dark Angels: Monks v. Native Americans
They wear robes but they also have feathers. Contradiction perhaps? The answer lies in Satan's Alley.

VI. Space Wolves: Vikings v. Werewolves
Lo there do I see my father! Lo there do I see mother and my sisters and my brothers! Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the ARWOOO!!! There are no vikings on Fenris. Also I heard they even have Blood Claw named Miklas Jayfox who rides around on top of his Rhino! NEXT!

IX. Blood Angels: Vampires v. Leonardo Da Vinci
I make-a lasagna I take all-a day... Bertolli! They are vampires? They have nipple armor? Fabulous!

More please!

Very good analysis I agree.

The traitor primarchs were a very diverse group so I wondered what they might have in common that would make them join together in rebellion. Several of them were misfits and disfavored before Horus fell but did not betray the Emperor until the Warmaster did. So Horus clearly played a role of the first importance. The traitors are like the Chaos Star: eight points proceeding in different directions from a center. Horus is their center.

So it occurs to me that something about Horus's character must make him the center, as far as eight of his brothers are concerned. It cant just be because the Emperor favored him. In fact, that would put more distance between Horus and Primarchs like Curze and even at a certain point Lorgar. Furthermore, if it was merely his superlative ability, then some of the others might have joined, too. It must therefore be some common ground in a deeper psychological sense.

The defining feature of Horus is his treachery and when you learn that he justified it with the notion of a greater loyalty, it's apparent how contradictory that reasoning is. It loops back in on itself unceasingly. This dynamism of contradiction is the essence of Chaos. Thinking of it like that, it's clear that what Horus has in common with the other eight traitors is this seed of Chaos at the hearts of their personalities. Of course, each seed grows into a different monster but the common origin is there.

This analysis doesn't really work with the loyalist Primarchs, either, so that's an interesting check.

While this is all interesting, I must offer a bit of a reality check/play devils advocate... the fluff writers aren't hat gifted, trying to analyze the psyche of the characters is a losing proposition because their psyches are defined by what seems cool to the writers. We're not reading classical works of literature here, just poorly written sci-fi.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Cool. I got some too.

I. Dark Angels: Monks v. Native Americans
They wear robes but they also have feathers. Contradiction perhaps? The answer lies in Satan's Alley.

VI. Space Wolves: Vikings v. Werewolves
Lo there do I see my father! Lo there do I see mother and my sisters and my brothers! Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the ARWOOO!!! There are no vikings on Fenris. Also I heard they even have Blood Claw named Miklas Jayfox who rides around on top of his Rhino! NEXT!

IX. Blood Angels: Vampires v. Leonardo Da Vinci
I make-a lasagna I take all-a day... Bertolli! They are vampires? They have nipple armor? Fabulous!

More please!

I'd call the Dark Angels more of a Truth versus Lies contradiction; I don't know a lot of their pre-Heresy background, but post-Heresy the themes in their stories tend to run towards secrets and cover-ups.

Space Wolves probably have something to do with civilization versus savagery in some way, not sure, I'm not particularly familiar with them.

Also a little shaky on the Blood Angels, they're stuck with their internal conflict between the rage at Sanguinus' death and the events of now; memory versus present? Allowing the past to control them versus forging their own path?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
While this is all interesting, I must offer a bit of a reality check/play devils advocate... the fluff writers aren't hat gifted, trying to analyze the psyche of the characters is a losing proposition because their psyches are defined by what seems cool to the writers. We're not reading classical works of literature here, just poorly written sci-fi.

Either even poorly-written sci-fi has enough depth to be analyzed (true), or the fluff-writers are cleverer than you assume (possible). Or both.

I got for Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines

XIII. Ultramarines: Disorder versus Order
The Ultramarines specialize in logistics in a Universe defined by rampant chaos and disorder and yet they were still the most prolific legion.

I think it's an interesting idea, and it could be a good topic for its own story. I think a few of your connections are dubious, but the idea of opposites applying to a character could definitely be looked into.

Perfection vs Flaw: Seems legitimate, although in this case I'd say the real reason Fulgrim fell was pride.

Security vs Paranoia: Not a contradiction. Paranoia often aids with security.

Determinism vs Free Will: Interesting, but I don't see the free will part here. Maybe it's how the NIght Lords don't really like serving Chaos?

Slavery vs Freedom: Perfect.

Life vs Death: Eh, it's a bit of a stretch; instead of endlessly dying, they're more endlessly decaying, which is still pretty close because it shows that even in immortality, they're kinda dead.

Knowledge vs Ignorance: Eh, I think you're on the right track here, but the real main flaw of Magnus and the Thousand Sons is their lack of foresight (Ironic).

Loyalty vs Treachery: Eh, I can kinda see it. It's really more of a 180 degree turn, since they really just turned from very loyal to very treacherous.

Faith vs Doubt: Perfect.

Truth vs Deception: I can see it. If they did serve the Cabal's purposes, the Alpha Legion ironically believed that they held some great truth.

Excellent analysis, Manchu.

Now, for the loyal primarchs, in no particular order...

1) The Lion is an overambitious schemer, and maybe a coward. His backhanded dealings with the traitor Iron Warriors brought the Imperium to the brink of destruction. His delay in bringing his legion to assist in the siege of Terra, maybe a diversion tactic meant to end in good terms with whoever was winning.

2) Sanguinius is fiercely loyal to his father, despite his (and his legion's) glaring physical flaws. Mutation was and is anathema to the Imperial Order.

3) Russ grudgingly accepts his role as the Emperor's executioner. He doesn't seem entirely happy with it.

4) Like his nemesis Perturabo, Dorn is a perfectionist, something which almost invariably conceals a repressed fear of one's own failings.

5) The Khan regards himself as alien to Imperial society and its system of beliefs and so do his brothers. He does little in the way to be accepted.

6) Guilleman is prideful and prejudiced. Ultimately, he rejected the fact that there might be a reality outside of his own thoughts and perceptions, and that cost him dearly when the Word Bearers brought the Heresy to his backdoor on Calth. Long after the attack had broken out Guilleman was paralyzed, requesting for "more information" even as his legion got torn to shreds.

7) For some reason, Ferrus Manus' brutal social darwinism and machine fetish remind me of the Italian Futurists of the 1930s. Yep, that bunch of weedy artists and intellectuals pretending to be square-jawed fascistic military types bent on setting the world alight. That screams "self-acceptance issues" out loud.

8 & 9) I don't know enough of Corax and Vulkan He'Stan to make a fair judgement, so I leave these two for you all to analyze...

Some of these seem spot on, such as the irony of Magnus' fall, or Mortarion's fall. Others seem like you have to really jump through some interpretation hurdles to make them work out. I mean, using Fulgrim as an example, literally the only reason he fell was because he was possessed by a daemon, and was entirely out of control of his own actions. The flaws of his legion had nothing to do with it; there is nothing deeper that can be found.

As for Horus and his role in the other legions' falls, I think you're looking too deep into it. Horus' was the center because: 1. He was the first Primarch to rebel, which served as an inspiration to the others, and 2. He was the most well-liked out of all the brothers.

Why was he the most well-liked? Because he had the most "bro" mentality. Horus was the only Primarch out of all of them who didn't openly despise or snub any of the others. He was simultaneously all of their friends and confidants, never judging them for their beliefs, never criticizing them for their flaws. Thus, they all looked up to him; even those who might have been jealous of him (The Lion), at least respected him. That he was also the most charismatic was just icing on the cake. All of the Primarchs who fell did so out of resentment, and most of them possessed that resentment before Horus ever dreamed of turning on the Emperor. Thus, the only thing Lupercal had to do to win his brothers' allegiance was take advantage of his position as their confidant, and fan their resentment.

Note that what I wrote about the loyalist Primarchs are flaws, some stemming from contradictions like those the OP pointed out, but not all.

My point being that, while the nine loyalist legions didn't had their loyalties compromised by the contradictions ingrained in their very mindsets and ideologies, they still had flaws that could have been played to sway them to chaos, but ultimately chose to stay loyal, each for its own reasons.

The loyalists' motivations strike me as complex and diverse, maybe even more than their traitor counterparts'.

Whoops, sorry. I was referring to the intro post, not yours.

Lol, I noticed, Blaxican. That was meant to be attached to my previous post but yours got in between. Curse me, I'm a slow writer.

Editing for clarity.

That's a very neat analysis, thanks for sharing it.

Guiliman / Ultramarines : Imperial truth vs Who gives a feth about the Cults,let them be
They were best example in enforcing IT,what happened? Did they forget or something ? Ooo wait,codex is more important....

Dorn / Imperial Fists: Anti codex / codex / BT anti codex
Do I need to say more?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I must offer a bit of a reality check/play devils advocate... the fluff writers aren't hat gifted,

I think some of them are pretty okay. But in any case, you take what you get.

1068SCP wrote:
I'd say the real reason Fulgrim fell was pride.

In a sense separate from his obsession with perfection?

1068SCP wrote:
Security vs Paranoia: Not a contradiction. Paranoia often aids with security.

But the sense of being secure is the opposite of paranoia.

1068SCP wrote:
Determinism vs Free Will: Interesting, but I don't see the free will part here. Maybe it's how the NIght Lords don't really like serving Chaos?

The Night Lords are a willful, contrarian bunch that have tons of trouble even getting along among themselves. And yet for all their willfulness, they're falling into waste with a sense of it being inevitable. So this is a deep problem for them. It goes back to Curze: would the Imperium have sent an assassin if he hadn't forced the issue?

As to the ones where you said "eh," it looks to me like we are actually in agreement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:
I mean, using Fulgrim as an example, literally the only reason he fell was because he was possessed by a daemon, and was entirely out of control of his own actions.

Yeah, I will say that the way Graham McNeill handled Fulgrim was insanely poor and didn't make any sense considering the traditional inner conflict of his Legion. There have been some attempts to ameliorate that but I guess we can't be surprised. This is the author that managed to screw up one of the most important aspect of the HH, the fall of Horus.

You have some great points about Horus but the fact remains that only some of them joined him. I maintain that he shared a basic personality trait with the other traitors, a deep psychological conflict that cannot be resolved. The loyalists, as far as I can tell, don't suffer from this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
My point being that, while the nine loyalist legions didn't had their loyalties compromised by the contradictions ingrained in their very mindsets and ideologies, they still had flaws that could have been played to sway them to chaos, but ultimately chose to stay loyal, each for its own reasons.

The loyalists' motivations strike me as complex and diverse, maybe even more than their traitor counterparts'.

I completely agree with this, especially the last part. The loyalists come off as a motley band compared to the traitors. And that is evident even in the way each side fights. So at Terra, only some of the loyalist legions were present while all of the traitors came.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Guiliman / Ultramarines : Imperial truth vs Who gives a feth about the Cults,let them be
They were best example in enforcing IT,what happened? Did they forget or something ? Ooo wait,codex is more important....

The feth?

Since when have the Ultramarines been the best example of enforcing the Imperial Truth?

 Manchu wrote:
As to the ones where you said "eh," it looks to me like we are actually in agreement.

Eh.

Vulkan is a primarch?

1068SCP wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Guiliman / Ultramarines : Imperial truth vs Who gives a feth about the Cults,let them be
They were best example in enforcing IT,what happened? Did they forget or something ? Ooo wait,codex is more important....

The feth?

Since when have the Ultramarines been the best example of enforcing the Imperial Truth?

 Manchu wrote:
As to the ones where you said "eh," it looks to me like we are actually in agreement.

Eh.

By being a prime example when Emprah was spanking WB (about their worshiping) - UM are like Logic,Reason,Discipline type,so what the hell happened?

P.S. Feth ? Seriously ? it also has other meaning - Google it up 40k newbie...

 ENOZONE wrote:
Vulkan is a primarch?

Uh yeah ... The Forgefathers of the Salamanders all take his name, however, and travel around looking for his artefacts. So Vulkan the Primarch is not the same person as Vulkan He'stan.

1068SCP wrote:
Since when have the Ultramarines been the best example of enforcing the Imperial Truth?

Yeah, Monarchia is a good point. I mean, the Emperor specifically chose the Ultramarines to show the Word Bearers how it's done. On the other hand, I don't think they've ever slacked off from the Imperial Truth. IIRC, it's not clear whether the people of Ultramar worship the Emperor as a god. The whole empire is aptus non and I'm guessing the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have any more say there than the Administratum.

 Manchu wrote:
I have a theory that the Traitor Legions are defined by an archetypal contradiction and that they fell because they were unable to deal with the attendant psychological and moral conflict. Here are my specific postulates:

III. Emperor's Children: Perfection v. Flaw
The exacting standards to which Fulgrim held himself and his legion proved a path into obsession. The Emperor's Children eagerly turned from rigorous self-cultivation to the excesses of self-debasement and the Phoenician himself vanished into possession.

IV. Iron Warriors: Security v. Paranoia
Perturabo distrusted the affections of his adoptive father, ultimately overthrowing him and seizing the rule of Olympia only to later devastate it while stamping out rebellion. The Iron Warriors neurotic fascination with constructing and breaching fortification mirrors their Primarch's lack of trust.

VIII. Night Lords: Determinism v. Free Will
Konrad Curze was so certain in his foreknowledge that the Emperor would murder him that he worked to incur the Emperor's wrath and allowed himself to be assassinated. In the wake of Night Haunter's death, the Night Lords slid into aimless ruin.

XII. World Eaters: Slavery v. Freedom
The Emperor denied Angron the gladiator-slave his freely-chosen death such that the word Primarch seemed but another shackle. The Red Angel re-made the XII Legion to throw off restraint in the fires of rage, thus dooming them to serve the Blood God.

XIV. Death Guard: Life v. Death
Ill-named Mortarion fought against death incarnate on Barbarus -- and lost only to be saved by the Emperor. In the face of similar defeat, the Reaper turned to the Plague God and as the price for endless life he and his legion are endlessly dying.

XV. Thousand Sons: Knowledge v. Ignorance
The mind of Magnus sought the farthest corners of both Materium and Immaterium yet what the Cyclops failed to learn overshadowed everything he managed to glean. The fruit as well as the dearth of his efforts cost the Thousand Sons dearly.

XVI. Sons of Horus: Loyalty v. Treachery
Of all his brothers, none so comprehended the grand sweep of their father's ambition as Horus Lupercal did. Believing that the Emperor intended to betray these goals, the Warmaster of needs rebelled and his devoted Sons pledged themselves to eternal revolt.

XVII. Word Bearers: Faith v. Doubt
In rejecting the adoration of Lorgar, the Emperor proved how fragile the Primarch's beliefs really were. At the center of the Word Bearers fanatical devotion to Chaos remains an infinitely bitter misgiving that Aurellian was originally correct.

XX. Alpha Legion: Truth v. Deception
Even the identity of the Primarch of the Alpha Legion is a source of ambiguity: it is no surprise these warriors delight in reverse double dealing. But can they themselves tell the difference between fact and fiction anymore?

Pretty sure all of this is way too deep and thought out to be GW's original intent but I like it a ton from a literary perspective.

If you like something, you shouldn't let the limitations of the product stop you. Imagine if all those Slayer Sword and Golden Daemon winners said "you know what, the models don't really deserve to be painted that well." I'm not saying I'm the fluff equivalent of a painting champ but we've all got to start somewhere.

Also, I have no doubt that all of what is currently being published as nothing to do with "GW's original intent" other than the original intent was "this is a business so let's make money."

@Manchu that OP looks pretty sound to me.

As for authorial intent I actually do think GW was going for that, at least inadvertendly. What rules the day in 40K is irony and so it is expected that each Primarch would fall in a manner that has something to do with their most prominent trait.

 Manchu wrote:
If you like something, you shouldn't let the limitations of the product stop you. Imagine if all those Slayer Sword and Golden Daemon winners said "you know what, the models don't really deserve to be painted that well." I'm not saying I'm the fluff equivalent of a painting champ but we've all got to start somewhere.

Also, I have no doubt that all of what is currently being published as nothing to do with "GW's original intent" other than the original intent was "this is a business so let's make money."

Agreed - and I have to say, very well done Manchu... great stuff here!

I wish GW/BL cared as much about their own background!

Thanks guys. Also, I think there are some authors who really do care about this stuff. ADB is one of them, for certain. I think Alan Bligh is probably the paragon fluff writer working with GW right now. And for what it's worth, I am a Mat Ward fan. His Newcrons are so much better than the one-note terminators of last decade. These guys are setting a new standard for published stuff, which is great for us -- the people who like to mull it over on discussion fora.

I have a 10th contradiction.

A full SM tactical squad vs. a Rhino's dimension.

Gotta give a shout to the OP here, this is excellent and very well thought out, I doubt it was intended this way as many have mentioned but I really love what you've done.

 Seb wrote:
I have a 10th contradiction.

A full SM tactical squad vs. a Rhino's dimension.

Not sure if you're missing the point, or if you're just trying for cheap laughs...


Manchu, a great post, I thoroughly liked it. As having the night lords be my favorite legion in the fluff, I'm completely agree with the determinism vs. free will... But I almost look at it as Curze and the NL are all products of their environment, though I can't elaborate on that point lol. But yes, I like the thought and effort put into the post.

One could almost say that there was the 10th Contradiction with the Emperor and his attempts to empower humanity ultimately were brought forth by things that couldn't even be considered humans anymore. Idk, just theorizing.

I agree about them being products of their environment. Nostromo is all about the cyclical, paradoxical relationship between law and crime. And, if you think about it, doesn't all law foresee and anticipate crime? But at the same time, one of the possible goals of the law is to prevent (i.e., deter) crime. That little paradox is at the heart of Konrad's personality.

The Emperor, it seems to me, is pretty much unknowable. The contradictions I mention above are meant to reveal the core dynamism driving the fall of each traitor -- each one a kind of "doomsday device." So for each, you could get biographical and try and figure out when the "doomsday device" button was pushed. With Angron, for example, it's probably when he was teleported up to the Emperor's ship while his gladiator army was slaughtered below. But the contradiction pre-existed that moment.

I believe the traitors were the ones who could not overcome their contradictions and the loyalists were those who did not suffer from contradictions (at least not any that were central to their personality). Perhaps the Emperor is the one who resolved his contradictions? If so, they pre-exist everything we know about humanity in the 40k universe.

We're all products of our enviroment but I find the circumstances that each Primarch grew up in fascinating. They all became masters of their adopted worlds but each one left it's mark. I think they shaped the Primach's eventual fates more than anything. So perhaps who became a traitor and who did not was really luck of the planetary draw.