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Narrowing it down (And sorry for multiple posts on similar subjects) I was wondering, I would like to run IG ally with my CSM Plague marines. I love the dragon..simply love it Both model and what it can do on the table. Now, i also love the IG Valk model..as well as having a 130 point gun boat zipping around the table. Although i think having both dragons and Vendettas zooming around is in fact..way overkill, even for me lol. I thought though, why not park 2 leman russ Vanquishers behind a agies line for the 4+ cover save, since the wall's rules says ANYTHING behind it gets that cover save. But then, 3 las cannon shots per flyer is very nice as well..and it's cheaper..and i do not have to buy the wall. So..going along with my Plague marines, Nurgle lord, some bikers and 2 dragons.. (maybe 1.....maybe..) Would you take (after the mandatory 1 hq 1 troop) 2 Vendettas or 2 Vanquishers. Thanks in advance for any help given.

Go with the vendetta. Its way cheaper, can still be squaded and has the same BS, but is twin linked. The vanquisher looks good on paper, but you figure its going to miss half the time and is alot more points. Granted it is AV14, but the fact that a vendetta is a flyer makes up for it. Also if you have the points, you could always take a different thing in your heavy slot since it wont be taken up by a vanquisher.

Maybe 1 of each? A Vendetta with Hellfury Missles and Heavy Bolters is good for flushing units out of cover and you could always Magnatize the Lascannons & Missles so if you face an opponent with multiple fliers you are prepared. Knight Commander Pask in a properly equipped Vanquisher draws attention and takes punishment and takes out heavy armor almost as good as a Vindicare Assassin freeing up your Dragon to Multi-Task (Vector Striking Fliers while Bale Flaming Troops or vice versa).

Cover saves for vehicals are based on how much of the shooters view is obstructed so you wouldnt necessarally get that 4+ cover save for the Russ's.
I personally like the Vendetta

jcressell wrote:
Cover saves for vehicals are based on how much of the shooters view is obstructed so you wouldnt necessarally get that 4+ cover save for the Russ's.
I personally like the Vendetta

Is there somewhere in the Big rule book where it says that for the Aegis line? because it literally says anything behind it. not anything behind it covered by x % Or..am i simply a blind and stubborn old man? lmao

Squadron of 2 Vendettas does have a nice ring to it

Page 74, but If it is directly behind the defense line you should get the cover save except from Fliers. Maybe put a Comms Relay there to ensure your 25% in cover status doesn't come into question and that'll also ensure your fliers come in faster.

-facpalm- Ty Sorginak, last time i take someones word when their known to be wrong. i think i am going to go with the Vendettas, the benefits simply outweigh everything else.

The vendettas are better and i would go with them over the vanquisher for anti tank, as I love tanks and have played using many of the different russ models i believe the vanquisher is not worth it at all. If anything GW should get rid of the vanquisher, up the battle tanks points and give it the rule that the vanquisher cannon has so then the lrbt has the option of large blast or single shot Anti Tank round. Personlly if you up the tank in 20 or 30pts i think it would be fair as its still only got bs3 so its not to much of a bonus as we know it hit half the time and that doesnt guarantee a destroyed enemy target. But back on topic of my rambling on the tanks armor is nice but it can still be hit a lot easier then needing snap shots on a couple of fliers. If your gunna take a leman russ for heavy support you should designate in your army what you want to be your anti tank. Personally none of the leman russes are to great at killing other tanks unless you take the demolisher which once you get in range just smokes everything lol. My personal favorite is just the bare bones LRBT.

tankboy145 wrote:
The vendettas are better and i would go with them over the vanquisher for anti tank, as I love tanks and have played using many of the different russ models i believe the vanquisher is not worth it at all. If anything GW should get rid of the vanquisher, up the battle tanks points and give it the rule that the vanquisher cannon has so then the lrbt has the option of large blast or single shot Anti Tank round. Personlly if you up the tank in 20 or 30pts i think it would be fair as its still only got bs3 so its not to much of a bonus as we know it hit half the time and that doesnt guarantee a destroyed enemy target. But back on topic of my rambling on the tanks armor is nice but it can still be hit a lot easier then needing snap shots on a couple of fliers. If your gunna take a leman russ for heavy support you should designate in your army what you want to be your anti tank. Personally none of the leman russes are to great at killing other tanks unless you take the demolisher which once you get in range just smokes everything lol. My personal favorite is just the bare bones LRBT.

Really? That's the first I've heard of that. I like the idea of combining the two, but I've been rolling Pask in a Vanquisher with two Multimeltas and a Lascannon for over two years now with great success. Since he always adds +1 to the AP roll the Multimeltas are effective even at 24" and the Lascannon and Vanquisher Cannon even more so, especially being a Heavy Vehicle he can move and fire them all at full BS 4. Either 4 Dead Terminators/Nobs/Palladins/Tyranid Warriors or one very blown up tank a turn.

Ive tried that and unfortunatly the person i played againts did fate weaver and demon spam so that tank was useless. And the lascannon and vanquisher are nice for pask but with the meltas a 24in range they are really only good for countering enemy armor that gets close as in order to use pasks crack shot you have to remain still. And yea I just read the imperial guard novel "gun heads" and all the battle tanks had explosive rounds which is the large blast and then they had anti tank rounds and I got upset because that would be so awesome if you had the choice to choose. but like i said up the tank 20 or 30 pts and i believe it would be fair. but that just makes the vanquisher useless. Unless you come up with like a barrel extension upgrade to maybe improve the tanks bs for like 15pts or so. But I will probably try to use the pask vanquisher with meltas again as the demons made short work of him. I run a gunline with the aegis so the tank wil get cover and i will just bulbble wrap it with the infantry so the enemy doesnt get to close.

tankboy145 wrote:
Ive tried that and unfortunatly the person i played againts did fate weaver and demon spam so that tank was useless. And the lascannon and vanquisher are nice for pask but with the meltas a 24in range they are really only good for countering enemy armor that gets close as in order to use pasks crack shot you have to remain still. And yea I just read the imperial guard novel "gun heads" and all the battle tanks had explosive rounds which is the large blast and then they had anti tank rounds and I got upset because that would be so awesome if you had the choice to choose. but like i said up the tank 20 or 30 pts and i believe it would be fair. but that just makes the vanquisher useless. Unless you come up with like a barrel extension upgrade to maybe improve the tanks bs for like 15pts or so. But I will probably try to use the pask vanquisher with meltas again as the demons made short work of him. I run a gunline with the aegis so the tank wil get cover and i will just bulbble wrap it with the infantry so the enemy doesnt get to close.

Ya, Flying Deamon Princes are the bane of any tank (on the ground or in the air). I'm trying to beef up my Infantry ACs and some Hydras to counter the 3 Deamon Prince, Fateweaver, Flying Bloodthirster & Flamer Spam armies that are on a rampage right now. Combining IG with GK is the best I got for that... but sorry I am getting off topic. Arrathon, can't really go wrong with the Two Vendettas as tank hunters; but be weary of Helldrakes & Flying Monstrous Creatures that will make a snack of them and watch that rear armor 10 when flying over things as Bolter Fire will take them down with snap shots. Other than that, they should serve you well.

Arrathon wrote: Would you take (after the mandatory 1 hq 1 troop) 2 Vendettas or 2 Vanquishers.

You're comparing one of the strongest choices in the codex to one of the weakest.

Firepower-wise, the vanquisher is a single lascannon that pens slightly more often. The vendetta is three, twin-linked lascannons. And its heavy bolter sponsons are cheaper as well. Also, it's going to be much easier to deny cover saves with a vendetta, as you sort of shoot over cover more often than not.

Durability-wise, the russ does have +2 Av on the front, but you can only hit a vendetta on 6's with a majority of everything, and it's completely immune to assault. No question which is more durable.

The vendetta is also insanely more mobile, especially now that leman russes are heavy vehicles. And the vendetta is also a transport, so it can be a scoring unit.

There are plenty of ways to take down armor with guard, but in a match-up between these two based solely on their most likely tabletop performance, there is no question that the vendetta is much, much better than the vanquisher.

The Vanquisher is a terrible, terrible tank.

I remember the old days when it was 175 points and could choose to fire the regular LRBT splatcannon shell OR the Vanquisher round. Those were the days...

EDIT:

And it got access to the Veteran Skills table in the BRB.... yum.

 Ailaros wrote:
you can only hit a vendetta on 6's with a majority of everything, and it's completely immune to assault. No question which is more durable.

Uh... Aegis Defense Lines? Helldrakes? Flying Monstrous Creatures?

I'll grant you that Vendettas are more durable against people who haven't adjusted to 6th yet, but I generally will put a Culexus Assasin in a Defense Line operating the Lacannon or Quad Gun with BS 8 and if I really feel I need to prepare against fliers I'll Bring a Storm Raven with Psybolt and a Multimelta and my Vindicare Assasin in annother Aegis Defense line so he can be instant deathing HQs when he isn't shooting down fliers. Of those three, only the Vindicare is really effective against a Russ at range.

I still think the Vendettas are awesome, but they are only armor 12 and people are adjusting their lists for fliers. Just a thought to consider.

Vanquisher is a very bad codex choice. Vendetta is a very good codex choice. You can not compare these two, really.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Vanquisher is a terrible, terrible tank.

I remember the old days when it was 175 points and could choose to fire the regular LRBT splatcannon shell OR the Vanquisher round. Those were the days...

EDIT:

And it got access to the Veteran Skills table in the BRB.... yum.

That sounds awesome! as i began playing in 5th what edition was this in? and whats the veterans skills? Ive heard people mention this before but couldnt find anything on it.

go with the vendettas-If your worried about anti air as well get a quad gun to possibly blast the dragon out of the sky before it comes in to save your vendettas. If you blow off its only weapon you did amazing if you shake or stun it the thats still amazing unless its got demonic posesssion then not happening. Personally im not a fan of hydras as they are only effective at air targets. Use artllery or Leman russ varients to deal with infantry or light armor and leave the tank hunting to vendettas and to help, throw in vet squads with x3 melta and demolisions to help with anti tank and MEQ.

That was the 3rd edition Armored Company experimental list out of Chapter Approved (Leman Russes in every slot), which is widely acknowledged as being the most broken 40k army list ever devised.

Vendetta, no contest. More shots, cheaper, faster, transport capacity, anti-aircraft capability...

It's also the 4th edition Armored Company list, just sayin.

But by then the Doctrines system allowed the Leman Russ (regular) to take Anti-Tank Rounds, which made it into a Vanquisher basically, except it had to stay stationary to fire them (unlike the Vanq.)

Man, my favorite Armored Company list so far was the 4th Edition one. I loved the doctrines system, though it was quite broken. The Aces High special rule, combined with things like Reinforced Ceramite Armor, Forge-Blessed, and Icon of the Machine-God were awesome doctrines.

I remember looking that list up before and it was crazy! those doctrines sounded so cool! I love the leman russ battle tank and so far im working on an armored company for my IG even though i dont ever get to play apocalypse I still would like to have one just because lol.

 Sorginak wrote:
I'll grant you that Vendettas are more durable against people who haven't adjusted to 6th yet, but I generally will put a Culexus Assasin in a Defense Line operating the Lacannon or Quad Gun with BS 8 and if I really feel I need to prepare against fliers I'll Bring a Storm Raven with Psybolt and a Multimelta and my Vindicare Assasin in annother Aegis Defense line so he can be instant deathing HQs when he isn't shooting down fliers. Of those three, only the Vindicare is really effective against a Russ at range.

One tiny little problem with this plan: you're spending way more points on those super quad guns than I'm spending on my Vendetta. Sure, you're reasonably likely to kill one Vendetta, but for those points you spent I'm going to have a lot more than one of them.


Also, BS 8 on a quad gun is pointless since it's already a twin-linked weapon. Anything above BS 4 is a waste since that already gives you a 90% chance to hit, and anything above BS 5 is literally pointless. Wasting a BS 8 assassin on quad gun duty is probably the least useful thing you could have that assassin doing.

The thing a lot of people are (willfully) forgetting about cendettas is their terribly limited field of fire.
As per BRB their hullmounted lascannons only have a limited field of vision, both horizontal as well as vertical. (which makes for "blind spot" of round about 7" in front of the vendetta, assuming the flying stand is 13cm high)

Thats fine, I am running 2 of them..plus two Heldrakes..I'll be fine i think lol.

 Arrathon wrote:

jcressell wrote:
Cover saves for vehicals are based on how much of the shooters view is obstructed so you wouldnt necessarally get that 4+ cover save for the Russ's.
I personally like the Vendetta

Is there somewhere in the Big rule book where it says that for the Aegis line? because it literally says anything behind it. not anything behind it covered by x % Or..am i simply a blind and stubborn old man? lmao

The Aegis Defense Line works like any other cover. If you are 25% obscured(vehicle or otherwise) you will get the cover save. What is obscuring you determines the cover save. The ADL specifies it grants 4+ cover.

An LRBT easily gets 25% from an ADL. And if it has Camo Nets so much the better.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Arrathon wrote:

jcressell wrote:
Cover saves for vehicals are based on how much of the shooters view is obstructed so you wouldnt necessarally get that 4+ cover save for the Russ's.
I personally like the Vendetta

Is there somewhere in the Big rule book where it says that for the Aegis line? because it literally says anything behind it. not anything behind it covered by x % Or..am i simply a blind and stubborn old man? lmao

The Aegis Defense Line works like any other cover. If you are 25% obscured(vehicle or otherwise) you will get the cover save. What is obscuring you determines the cover save. The ADL specifies it grants 4+ cover.

An LRBT easily gets 25% from an ADL. And if it has Camo Nets so much the better.

This exactly, it's why Chimera chassi's behind the wall are disgusting. Covers almost 1/2 of the chassis

 Sorginak wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
you can only hit a vendetta on 6's with a majority of everything, and it's completely immune to assault. No question which is more durable.

Uh... Aegis Defense Lines? Helldrakes? Flying Monstrous Creatures?

I'll grant you that Vendettas are more durable against people who haven't adjusted to 6th yet, but I generally will put a Culexus Assasin in a Defense Line operating the Lacannon or Quad Gun with BS 8 and if I really feel I need to prepare against fliers I'll Bring a Storm Raven with Psybolt and a Multimelta and my Vindicare Assasin in annother Aegis Defense line so he can be instant deathing HQs when he isn't shooting down fliers. Of those three, only the Vindicare is really effective against a Russ at range.

Dude, we're talking about IG here, not GK. as a player of both, I'll keep to my Vendettas for anti tank. Don't forget they have scout too, so turn one alpha strikes are still pretty good. I think Air Cav Guard is still competitive.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
you can only hit a vendetta on 6's with a majority of everything, and it's completely immune to assault. No question which is more durable.

Uh... Aegis Defense Lines? Helldrakes? Flying Monstrous Creatures?

I'll grant you that Vendettas are more durable against people who haven't adjusted to 6th yet, but I generally will put a Culexus Assasin in a Defense Line operating the Lacannon or Quad Gun with BS 8 and if I really feel I need to prepare against fliers I'll Bring a Storm Raven with Psybolt and a Multimelta and my Vindicare Assasin in annother Aegis Defense line so he can be instant deathing HQs when he isn't shooting down fliers. Of those three, only the Vindicare is really effective against a Russ at range.

Dude, we're talking about IG here, not GK. as a player of both, I'll keep to my Vendettas for anti tank. Don't forget they have scout too, so turn one alpha strikes are still pretty good. I think Air Cav Guard is still competitive.

I agree. That is why my original comment included for both. I just don't like putting all my eggs in one basket but bringing a mixture of things that are effective and hard to kill for different reasons so as players gear their armies towards anti-fliers with S-tons of Str 7 and 8, the value of AV 14 on the field increases.

How are you turn 1 striking with vendettas, their a flier and must start in reserve. Unless thier on the table as a fast skimmer?

 Sorginak wrote:

I agree. That is why my original comment included for both. I just don't like putting all my eggs in one basket but bringing a mixture of things that are effective and hard to kill for different reasons so as players gear their armies towards anti-fliers with S-tons of Str 7 and 8, the value of AV 14 on the field increases.

Evem I you choose not to bring flyers, there are better choices than the Vanquisher to kill a tank. Demolishers, Manticores, Devil Dogs and Medusas come to mind.

stormies with melta guns and the infamous MARBO!