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so several questions.

Is the new CSM codex just underwhelming or is it actually bad? As a new player I like it, but of truth I have nothing to compare it to.

What is your favorite unit in each part of Foc?

are there any real competitive builds?

what would you consider their biggest weakness and how would you overcome that?

Canas is back wrote:
so several questions.

Is the new CSM codex just underwhelming or is it actually bad? As a new player I like it, but of truth I have nothing to compare it to.

Not terrible, just incredibly underwhelming. Almost any army you would want to play as could be better done using a counts-as Space Marine codex, especially Khorne and Tzeentch armies.

what would you consider their biggest weakness and how would you overcome that?

They're not Space Marines.

Overcome it by playing Space Marines.

Canas is back wrote:
so several questions.

Is the new CSM codex just underwhelming or is it actually bad? As a new player I like it, but of truth I have nothing to compare it to.

What is your favorite unit in each part of Foc?

are there any real competitive builds?

what would you consider their biggest weakness and how would you overcome that?

It strikes me as pretty bad, I bought a bunch of stuff when it first came out and am now seriously considering counts-as Blood Angels for Night Lords.

Hmm...rules or fluff-wise?

People have been making a big deal about Epidemius(sp), Typhus and the Nurgle Group Hug of Death(tm), where you run Daemon allies to bring Epidemius, kill your own stuff to activate his tally, then go to town. Other than that, Abbadon Chosen spam has been getting a lot of attention, as you can run MSU 5-man squads w/ 5 special weapons in each squad, giving you potentially a crazy amount of plasma, albeit at the cost of being the mother of all glass cannons. I'm not sure if either of these really stand up to big tourny lists, but they're what most of the internet is buzzing about.

CSM's best solution to fliers is the same as most codexes: Take a quad-gun. Kinda disappointing that the first 6e book has no better anti-flier tech, but w/e.

I dig it. It's right around the middle of the power curve, and a lot of people were expecting something up at the top. It has a pretty dizzying number of options too, which is cool. A lot of people also just wanted 3.5 again, and while it has more of that influence in it than the previous codex, it's not quite there.

I'd also give it some more time. It's still a new codex, and people haven't gotten around to figuring everything out about it yet.

The chaos book is a good book. Some people are underwhelmed by it but there is a lot of under explored items in the book that work really well. Khornite Daemon prince with that axe wipes out entire terminator squads before they even get to strike back. Kharne is a complete monster in CC.

Competitive lists? There are a few already discovered. Most books take months to find "the list". For example if I recall, the imperial guard codex came out in the spring of 09. It wasn't until the ard boyz tournament later that year (in the fall or late summer) that the "leafblower" list was discovered. And now we are 3 years later and leafblower builds are considered an "ok" way to play guard.

Chaos has epidemius. A very fluffy list that still has some competitive edge despite being easily countered and relying a bit too much on luck for most gamers.

Abadon + chosen is another list that sees quite a bit of play. However I feel both these lists are just the tip of the iceberg.

Nurgle Obliterator spam + skyshield has been doing pretty good and those obliterators are a major pain to deal with.

There is also the "turn 2 alpha strike" list that I have seen table an entire army in just 2 turns. Though it requires forgeworld for the drop pods or dread claws or whatever they are called and some people might get mad at you for taking "forgeworld" to create an optimized list. Apparently people only like when you take forgeworld to handicap yourself

You could probably tweak it to work without the claws easily enough and still cause massive damage.

As for units that I enjoy in each FoC. I really enjoy my Slaanesh Sorcerer. But the HQ slot is always a personal taste slot. So I will skip it for now.

Troops, there is this misconception that sisters players have "amazing cheap power armor" at 12 points a model. However chaos gets +1 T,S,I,and WS compared to a battle sister for a single point more. And they have way better options. And yet people think they are bad because they don't have ATSKNF. Noise Marines are a great unit. And plague marines are still amazing. Cultists give chaos a 50 point scoring unit thats entire job is to either die for typhus or go to ground all game if shot at.

Elites is actually the weakest spot in my opinion. Because almost everything that goes here is either bad, or becomes troops and is no longer an elite. The only exception is terminators. And anyone who tries to tell you t5 terminators. Or I5 terminators with FNP is bad needs to have their brain checked. I rather enjoy running my slaanesh sorcerer in terminator armor with a group of terminators giving him FNP. Now that the faq has fixed it so you can give them both upgrades if needed my terminators are a staple in my army. Combi plasma lightning claw FNP slaanesh terminators. Yes pulease.

Fast Attack has 3 good units 1 great unit and 1 really bad one. Everyone knows warp talons are awful. We can move on. However everything else here is great. I have played 3 or 4 games now against my local chaos guru. And he has taken chaos spawn in each game. And every game they have MORE than made their points back. Mass light fire isn't going to even phase them despite them having no armor save. My vindicators are wasted firing into these things. A vindicator is going to maybe kill 1 of them a turn and they are fast buggers. Plus on the charge each one has 3-8 attacks at str 5 and might be poisoned so rerolls. Each one is basically a 30 point monstrous creature just without smash.

Raptors are my favorite assault unit in the codex now. My raptors get to hit you with pistols, HoW attack you at I10, and then since I play Slaanesh go first in combat against most opponents. that is a lot of attacks before you even get to swing. But lets not forget the bikers. t6 bikers with that 3+ armor save so good. And their options make them work better than the spawn in my opinion. But just like the raptors, you now have rapid firing relentless bolters into HoW into i5 attacks. Throw in a chaos lord on a bike and you have a really nasty unit that also has FNP.

The heldrake is amazing. I think the model is absolutely stupid. But the damage this thing causes? Since again most armies can't combat more than 1-2 fliers in an army by taking 3 of these things you can do some serious damage. That flame thrower template is going to make incredibly short work out of anything not in a transport. I have seen kill tallies on a single one of these things ranging upwards of 30 models slain by just the one flier. And this is against marines, not horde armies.

Fast attack is definitely the best spot in the book. But heavy support isn't slacking either. Despite the heavy point increase on a defiler they are still a good unit. With my slaanesh daemon allies pavane puts opponents into perfect combos for my heavy support to wipe out entire units in a single round of shooting. Havocs provide large amounts of cheap firepower.

I can understand some chaos players not liking the new book. It did make a few mistakes (why is tzeentch the weakest psychic tree) And it still provides no answer to necrons air force lists outside of list tailoring which will severely handicap you against other lists. But outside of that? The chaos book is a vast improvement over the previous book, is great fun to play and will do just fine in competitive circles. is it the next grey knight book? No. But thank you baby jesus for that.

What are people doing with dreadclaw? Unless you take a comms relay only 2/3rd are coming in turn 2, and even then nothing can assault out of them (for two reasons - DS and turned up from reserves)

In terms of competitiveness, it's capable but not especially wowing. Some consider this a good thing to control power creep, others a bad as it means it's likely simply going to get overtaken like the last one did and with the DA rumors swirling about it seems very possible.

In terms of flavor and feel, it is incredibly underwhelming. Better than the last book to be sure, though that's not exactly saying much of anything.


Really, more than anything, it feels like a very pretty $50 White Dwarf update to the previous book. There's a couple new units, some changes and swaps, but largely the issues that existed previously are still there, the major problems people had are still present (e.g. why do my Troops plague marines have FNP and blight grenades and poisoned weapons but my Plague Lord and Plague Terminators don't even have the option?), and it just doesn't really *FEEL* like a 6th edition book.

Rather, it feels like a patch to a 4th edition book with some 6th edition special rules, but still built to the mechanics and costings of previous editions.


I feel this book may ultimately go down in history much as the previous one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What are people doing with dreadclaw? Unless you take a comms relay only 2/3rd are coming in turn 2, and even then nothing can assault out of them (for two reasons - DS and turned up from reserves)

The list I saw was as follows to the best of my knowledge. I saw it last weekend actually and talked to the guy about it quite a bit, it has supposedly done amazingly well and it looked it in the game I saw.
3x Havoc squads with auto cannons, ADL. Comms Relay.
3x Heldrakes
1 lucius the eternal
1 chaos lord with burning brand.
Rest of the army was noise marines with doomsirens. Or Chosen with melta guns inside dread claws.

The game I watched I started watching as he was rolling his reserves, He got everything but 1 heldrake on the board turn 2. The chosen landed destroyed a couple transports getting first blood. And the heldrakes and noise marines nearly tabled the rest of the army. By the end of the second turn all the opponent had was 2 squads of longfangs inside a bastion. He conceded the game but had he not there isnt a doubt in my mind the ap3 flamers would have killed everything inside and on top of that bastion in the next turn. From talking to him the thing he struggles with the most is mass vehicles which is a rarity outside of necron flier spam as many people don't like giving away first blood with light transports anymore. And his 3 havoc squads can't be used to destroy vehicles the first turn as they have to focus on gun emplacements to make sure he doesn't lose one of his heldrakes. he looked like he only had 2 units of chosen with melta guns.

But if you were to tweak the list I bet deepstriking an entire army of terminators and oblits with heldrake support would put the hurt on a lot of armies. Squads of deepstriking plasma spewing terminators backed up by oblits that heavy flamer or melta whatever targets are needed and heldrakes to mop up larger targets. Now i haven't tried my version of it yet. But I actually intend to give it a try. Just take 2 units of cultists for objective sitters and the rest in deepstriking alpha spewing goodness. Though I suppose if an opponent sees what im doing they will likely just keep in cover as my version doesn't have as much "ignores cover" as his did.

 Vaktathi wrote:
In terms of competitiveness, it's capable but not especially wowing. Some consider this a good thing to control power creep, others a bad as it means it's likely simply going to get overtaken like the last one did and with the DA rumors swirling about it seems very possible.

In terms of flavor and feel, it is incredibly underwhelming. Better than the last book to be sure, though that's not exactly saying much of anything.


Really, more than anything, it feels like a very pretty $50 White Dwarf update to the previous book. There's a couple new units, some changes and swaps, but largely the issues that existed previously are still there, the major problems people had are still present (e.g. why do my Troops plague marines have FNP and blight grenades and poisoned weapons but my Plague Lord and Plague Terminators don't even have the option?), and it just doesn't really *FEEL* like a 6th edition book.

Rather, it feels like a patch to a 4th edition book with some 6th edition special rules, but still built to the mechanics and costings of previous editions.


I feel this book may ultimately go down in history much as the previous one.

I'd agree with this statement. It *looks* more like a 6e book ("Here's the 6e rules, there's the characters that change the force org"), but most of the changes are superficial (especially the changes to the force org, except Abbadon). But only few more options than the last book, no increased personalization of the army beyond the randomness of boons.

I picked up CSM with the DV kit and actually like them. Though I am a Tau player, so probably don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm just running them as allies for now. This gives me access to two good sized units of CSM and several other units that my army is currently lacking. I plan on getting the Helldrake and already have a forge/mauler fiend. I'm probably going to run a hellbrute with a plasmacannon and powerscourge just because I can.

I know a lot of people don't like the DP since it can be insta-killed. But I think it's still a good HQ with plenty of options.

I think a lot of problems with CSM is that people were hoping to pick it up, grab a hand full of models, and have the new uber-huge unstoppable rape machine. It's balanced well with plenty of options, just not enough for some people to abuse.

I had a guy trying to tell me how OP and abusive Tau were because his DP died first turn. Basically because he didn't insta-win he thought the entire codex was trash. I think this sums up a lot of feelings.

I like that the new codex is more powerful without being a top-tier codex. Keep in mind that I'm not super into the tournament scene, but I find the new dex more fun than the old one, with more options. I also love being able to use my raptors and have them be effective, or even totally devastating (slaughtered their way through my opponent's army 2 games ago)

There are a few missed opportunities, and oversights that I wish had been addressed, (a sorcerer who gets dark apotheosis does;t turn into a deamon prince psyker? Ok then...) but no codex is going to be perfect, and as stated before, it's a new codex so I'm sure there are still powerhouse combos to be discovered.

I really dont get the hate either and i do get the feeling people wanted the next GK codex thinking being the first 6th ed codex would make it FOTM.

Its balanced and i really hope it sets the standard for future codex's so we can all have a level playing field where you play your army because you like it not because its super strong.

hobojebus wrote:
I really dont get the hate either and i do get the feeling people wanted the next GK codex thinking being the first 6th ed codex would make it FOTM.

Its balanced and i really hope it sets the standard for future codex's so we can all have a level playing field where you play your army because you like it not because its super strong.

Well, when codexes like Grey Knights, Necrons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels exist, you kinda have to compare new codexes to them, especially since they're not going away any time soon. In those comparisons, Chaos clearly falls short.

I personally think it's because people look at power instead of fun factor.

Power wise, the book is in the middle, which is a shame for people who waited for the new codex to win again. 40k is really bad at truly competitive tournament balance, so there you go. If anything, it's a balanced book, in a game where some books happen to be unbalanced.

Fun wise, it;s a HUGE improvement. The FoC restrictions actually improve the game, in my opinion, as you now are far more motivated to play mono god themed lists. It breeds variety. Also, almost all the units are actually useful, with a couple of exceptions, like Mutilators and Warp Talons. This, again, is a huge improvement from the last one. There seems to be a whole slew of interesting builds that would work well. I am particularly pleased that they kept the randomness of some units like the Dreadnaught(Hellbrute), but made it so it's now actually beneficial to you.

I also think that it;s a big step up in terms of feeling different from loyalist space marines, not only because of the cult troop mechanics, but also the random rewards and the forced duels. People dont like having to challenge every time, as it IS obviously depowering, but it does really change the flavor of the army. Now you need to design your champions as duelsts, not as infantry killers, which in my opinion is also pretty damn chaosy. And ofcourse having the chance to turn your Chaos Lord into a Daemon Prince, or even a Chaos Spawn, is pretty damn fun, if not helpful .

I think the problem is, the book is actually too well balanced for the people who've been waiting for years for their army to become "competitive" again, and by that I mean overpowered until the next codex. Which in my opinion is missing the point of the game completely, but there you have it.

In all, if you are the kind of player who plays in your FLGS with friends, you'll enjoy the variety of the new chaos codex immensly, while staying able to beat most(but possibly not the umber cheese) lists without disadvantage. IF you are a tournament WAAC player, might I suggest Grey Knights? They are a safe bet. Or better yet, switch to Warmachine. Or Malifaux. THOSE are well balanced competitive games, particularly Warmachine. If only it wasn't so bland.

codemonkey wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
I really dont get the hate either and i do get the feeling people wanted the next GK codex thinking being the first 6th ed codex would make it FOTM.

Its balanced and i really hope it sets the standard for future codex's so we can all have a level playing field where you play your army because you like it not because its super strong.

Well, when codexes like Grey Knights, Necrons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels exist, you kinda have to compare new codexes to them, especially since they're not going away any time soon. In those comparisons, Chaos clearly falls short.

Not really - look at fantasy. The big armybooks are being replaced, at a lower power level than previous. If they can continue the 40k 6th ed theme with much more balanced against eah other books, rather than having to equal previous books, youre in a much happier place overall. Just hope they can keep the fair pace they had in fantasy going for 40k

codemonkey wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
I really dont get the hate either and i do get the feeling people wanted the next GK codex thinking being the first 6th ed codex would make it FOTM.

Its balanced and i really hope it sets the standard for future codex's so we can all have a level playing field where you play your army because you like it not because its super strong.

Well, when codexes like Grey Knights, Necrons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels exist, you kinda have to compare new codexes to them, especially since they're not going away any time soon. In those comparisons, Chaos clearly falls short.

I really don't think they fall short. They have some big ups on their own, and with allies they can have some truly nasty lists.

Yes it has been asked and supposedly answered before...

It is a matter of opinion if it is good, bad, or indifferent. Instead of asking us, read the codex, maybe even play a game with them.

I find it much to my personal taste, I like how Chaos has been portraied in the new book. And the new toys are fun

I too find the fluff to my liking, the chaos space marines are no longer frothing idiots.