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So now that I'm nearing my 3K goal for Orks I'm looking into a Space Marine Army that is Low on vehicles and is mostly Tatical Marines. I'm looking at some of the special HQ choices and it seems Pedro or Darnath which would make my marines Stubborn. Any tips on what to buy and what vehicles are a must in a space marine army?

At the moment the only absolute must for a C:SM army vehicle is the Stormtalon as it's the only option that can take down flyers (if most of your regular opponents don't use flyers then don't worry about it), other than that it's entirely up to your personal preference as to what vehicles to take, Drop Pods are nice to getting a couple units in choice positions turn one.

You could probably manage without any vehicles. Get a defence line with quad gun and you've got instant anti-flier. Auto cannons or assault cannons can take them down too just through sheer volume of fire.

I have a semi-competitive semi-fluffy Raven Guard list that has no vehicles and works decently. If you aren't interested in competing against tournament style lists then it is totally possible and pretty fun. I use a Librarian with Gate (or Shrike) to get some Assault Terminators into combat along with another Librarian with Gate to shuffle around some Sternguard. Backing this up are some Tactical Squads, Devastators, Scouts, and optionally Vanguard Vets if I am not really concerned with having a strong list. It folds to fliers, parking lots, and most really strong lists but it competes well against other semi-competitive lists. It is also pretty cheap to collect since you aren't spending 40 bucks on 35 point Rhinos. The loss of Combat Tactics is huge if you run Shrike (you really shouldn't if you want a stronger list) but his model is so good that I can't resist.

To make the list *much* stronger you can add two Stormtalons for air support. This is still pretty fluffy for a forward scouting force like Raven Guard. Drop pods are also needed at larger point levels since your two librarians aren't enough mobility for the hammer units in your army. A single Land Raider for your Terminators is another option since you don't really need a high vehicle density to make it work.

Non mech can actually be quite strong. As above, a stormtalon or two would be nice, but I beleive with a defence line and quad gun and a solid base or 3-4 tactical squads, you can do quite well.

Given that tactical squads are garbage you're going to have a hard time making a successful army with lots of them.

 Peregrine wrote:
Given that tactical squads are garbage you're going to have a hard time making a successful army with lots of them.

I would disagree, if you take a look a Reecius and his TAC marine list, tac squads and combat tactics are golden

tuiman wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Given that tactical squads are garbage you're going to have a hard time making a successful army with lots of them.

I would disagree, if you take a look a Reecius and his TAC marine list, tac squads and combat tactics are golden

Can you explain why they are "golden" without just saying "look at famous person X's list"?

And they really aren't "golden". They score, and that's their only redeeming quality compared to the rest of the codex. You need to take them to win objective games, but you aren't going to like it.

Ok, there not 'golden' but they are far from garbage. Why would I not like it? 3+ save, put them in cover and most things would have a hard time removing them, and when you play at 1500 and I put down 40 tactical marines, plus all the toys on top, it can suddenly become quite daunting to face.

tuiman wrote:
Why would I not like it?

Because they aren't good at anything. Other units in the codex out-shoot them, out-assault them, out-mobility them, etc. If you ignore scoring objectives you'd never take tactical squads.

3+ save, put them in cover and most things would have a hard time removing them, and when you play at 1500 and I put down 40 tactical marines, plus all the toys on top, it can suddenly become quite daunting to face.

Except an equal point value of sternguard/terminators/etc would be much more daunting to face. And 40 tactical marines really isn't that scary, since that's almost half your 1500 points and they only have 3-6 (depending on your choice of weapon) guns that matter and a bunch of useless bolters. Sure, they have a good save, but their lack of offensive output ensures that they're going to be the last things in your army to be targeted, and once the rest of your army is gone a bunch of bolter marines probably aren't going to win the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

tuiman wrote:
Why would I not like it?

Because they aren't good at anything. Other units in the codex out-shoot them, out-assault them, out-mobility them, etc. If you ignore scoring objectives you'd never take tactical squads.

3+ save, put them in cover and most things would have a hard time removing them, and when you play at 1500 and I put down 40 tactical marines, plus all the toys on top, it can suddenly become quite daunting to face.

Except an equal point value of sternguard/terminators/etc would be much more daunting to face. And 40 tactical marines really isn't that scary, since that's almost half your 1500 points and they only have 3-6 (depending on your choice of weapon) guns that matter and a bunch of useless bolters. Sure, they have a good save, but their lack of offensive output ensures that they're going to be the last things in your army to be targeted, and once the rest of your army is gone a bunch of bolter marines probably aren't going to win the game.

They may not be shiny or flashy, but as far as nigh-unkillable plasma cannons and good places to hide Devastator squads behind go, Tactical Marines are far from useless. 'Not as good as Sternguard' doesn't mean 'automatic waste of points'.

Also, for the record: You can't get 40 Terminators in a 1,500pt force, and if you somehow bent the rules to get 40 Sternguard you've dropped a thousand points on the table before upgrades. Tactical Marines' big advantage is their status as cheap(er) bodies; 40 Tactical Marines with plasma cannons are 700pts, which leaves you 800pts for bigger and fancier guns. They're not the biggest, nastiest, or only killing force in your army, but if they're used cleverly (I hide Devastators with mine, for instance) they can screen more important units, provide fire support, sit on objectives, and tarpit some enemies in close combat.

Tac Marines' biggest advantage is that they're fairly durable. Their killing power leaves a bit to be desired, but as far as troops go to take and hold objectives, they're not terrible.

I'm trying Chaos Marines on foot soon, but I haven't played vanilla Marines on foot in a long time. With the changes to rapid fire weapons, they'll be a bit better off though. You'll need some long range fire support to make up for the lack of mobility though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They may not be shiny or flashy, but as far as nigh-unkillable plasma cannons and good places to hide Devastator squads behind go, Tactical Marines are far from useless. 'Not as good as Sternguard' doesn't mean 'automatic waste of points'.

Now look at the point cost of that single "unkillable" plasma cannon. The unit as a whole has less firepower than the other units you brought, so it isn't going to get shot at until after everything more important is dead and it's too late for a single plasma cannon to make a difference.

This is the same problem that Tau players suffer from: they see a 2+ cover save on stealth suits and completely ignore the fact that stealth suits have laughable firepower and will never get to use that cover save until they're the last unit on the table and the game is already over.

Also, for the record: You can't get 40 Terminators in a 1,500pt force, and if you somehow bent the rules to get 40 Sternguard you've dropped a thousand points on the table before upgrades.

Except the thousand points of sternguard or terminators will dominate an equal point value of tactical squads.

Tactical Marines' big advantage is their status as cheap(er) bodies; 40 Tactical Marines with plasma cannons are 700pts, which leaves you 800pts for bigger and fancier guns.

You know what's cheaper than tactical squads? Not buying tactical squads.

They're not the biggest, nastiest, or only killing force in your army, but if they're used cleverly (I hide Devastators with mine, for instance) they can screen more important units, provide fire support, sit on objectives, and tarpit some enemies in close combat.

And they don't do any of those things well. The only thing they're "good" at is being a scoring unit, so you take the bare minimum that you think you'll need to win the objective games and spend the rest of your points on units that are good at what they do.

 Peregrine wrote:


And they don't do any of those things well. The only thing they're "good" at is being a scoring unit, so you take the bare minimum that you think you'll need to win the objective games and spend the rest of your points on units that are good at what they do.

So the same as pretty much any other troops choice in the game then

tuiman wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


And they don't do any of those things well. The only thing they're "good" at is being a scoring unit, so you take the bare minimum that you think you'll need to win the objective games and spend the rest of your points on units that are good at what they do.

So the same as pretty much any other troops choice in the game then

Except that's not true at all. For example, IG veteran squads are awesome melta/plasma units and you'd take them even if objectives and scoring units were removed from the game entirely.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They may not be shiny or flashy, but as far as nigh-unkillable plasma cannons and good places to hide Devastator squads behind go, Tactical Marines are far from useless. 'Not as good as Sternguard' doesn't mean 'automatic waste of points'.

Now look at the point cost of that single "unkillable" plasma cannon. The unit as a whole has less firepower than the other units you brought, so it isn't going to get shot at until after everything more important is dead and it's too late for a single plasma cannon to make a difference.

This is the same problem that Tau players suffer from: they see a 2+ cover save on stealth suits and completely ignore the fact that stealth suits have laughable firepower and will never get to use that cover save until they're the last unit on the table and the game is already over.

Also, for the record: You can't get 40 Terminators in a 1,500pt force, and if you somehow bent the rules to get 40 Sternguard you've dropped a thousand points on the table before upgrades.

Except the thousand points of sternguard or terminators will dominate an equal point value of tactical squads.

Tactical Marines' big advantage is their status as cheap(er) bodies; 40 Tactical Marines with plasma cannons are 700pts, which leaves you 800pts for bigger and fancier guns.

You know what's cheaper than tactical squads? Not buying tactical squads.

They're not the biggest, nastiest, or only killing force in your army, but if they're used cleverly (I hide Devastators with mine, for instance) they can screen more important units, provide fire support, sit on objectives, and tarpit some enemies in close combat.

And they don't do any of those things well. The only thing they're "good" at is being a scoring unit, so you take the bare minimum that you think you'll need to win the objective games and spend the rest of your points on units that are good at what they do.

...I'm sorely tempted to say 'So what?' here. Yes, building an army with no Tactical Squads and all Terminators and Sternguard would be fun. Yes, I wish I had Biel-Tan back and could build an army of thirty Dark Reapers. But: Are we really out to find the nastiest most overpowered cheesiest army builds in the game, or are we here to point out that an army built on Tactical Squads is viable casually, but won't win you any tournaments? Tactical squads are expensive. They lack firepower. They're not as good as your specialized Elites units. This is all true. Does that make them inherently a waste of points? Does that mean if you use more than two minimum Tactical Squads you automatically lose?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Does that mean if you use more than two minimum Tactical Squads you automatically lose?

Of course not, but it does mean that an army that takes more than the minimum of tactical squads is at a significant disadvantage and is much less likely to win. That might be enough in the most casual environment where everyone else takes awful lists, but I don't see why we should consider situations where any list is able to win, no matter how terrible.

 Peregrine wrote:
You need to take them to win objective games, but you aren't going to like it.

Aren't all the games objective games? As said earlier, 40 Tac Marines will run around 700 points, leaving 800 points or so of stuff to support 4 to 8 scoring units that have the option to Drop Pod right where they're needed. Dislodging a Tac Squad from an objective can be a pain for an opponent, especially if you place the Pod creatively. Think outside the statline man.

 beigeknight wrote:
Aren't all the games objective games? As said earlier, 40 Tac Marines will run around 700 points, leaving 800 points or so of stuff to support 4 to 8 scoring units that have the option to Drop Pod right where they're needed. Dislodging a Tac Squad from an objective can be a pain for an opponent, especially if you place the Pod creatively. Think outside the statline man.

The point is you don't need 40 tactical marines to win objective games, and you certainly don't want to build your army around tactical marines like the OP suggested. You take the minimum required to claim objectives, and no more. Taking anything beyond the minimum you expect to need for scoring purposes is just throwing away points.

 Peregrine wrote:

 beigeknight wrote:
Aren't all the games objective games? As said earlier, 40 Tac Marines will run around 700 points, leaving 800 points or so of stuff to support 4 to 8 scoring units that have the option to Drop Pod right where they're needed. Dislodging a Tac Squad from an objective can be a pain for an opponent, especially if you place the Pod creatively. Think outside the statline man.

The point is you don't need 40 tactical marines to win objective games, and you certainly don't want to build your army around tactical marines like the OP suggested. You take the minimum required to claim objectives, and no more. Taking anything beyond the minimum you expect to need for scoring purposes is just throwing away points.

Idk, i've been following the 1 / 500 rule for my Scoring units (so 3 Tac Squads at 1500) and it's been working pretty well.

Though, I don't think I'd take more than the 1/500 rule in any circumstance.

Crazyterran wrote:
Idk, i've been following the 1 / 500 rule for my Scoring units (so 3 Tac Squads at 1500) and it's been working pretty well.

See, that's what I mean, you figure out how many scoring units you need, and don't take more. You don't start out with a premise of "army built around lots of tactical squads".