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**Unyielding Hunger**

So, I recently got into Warhammer in general a month or so ago, and started out in 40k. I also have some buddies that run Fantasy, and as such, I am testing the waters on what I truly want to field. I am used to playing my Tyranids, and while the Skaven are the fantasy equivelent, I really don't want an army that all my enemy has to do is call Billy the Exterminator and I can kiss my army goodbye. I like the nature fluff on the Wood Elven Tree Spirit elements, and I am curious how one would properly field an army with Drycha as a leader, using the Tree Spirit Only theme that she forces. Also, any tips on things I should use to further boost my army, and most importantly, things to avoid would be helpful. One friend runs dwarves, and when I mentioned a tree spirit army to him, he started laughing maniacally like a mad scientist...

**HawaiiMatt**

Wood Elves are fairly outdated, and tree spirits didn't make the jump to 8th edition well. Steadfast is a huge problem, and you've got next to no magical offense or defense in a Tree Spirit army.

You're basically giving up on the shooting and magic phase, and they aren't strong enough to do it all in melee.

Woodelves are fairly unforgiving as a whole, to toss out half the book is a really bad idea.

-Matt

**Unyielding Hunger**

I wouldn't say that. Taking Drycha with a couple of branchwraiths should give around 5+ dice to work with. Steadfast, out of curiosity, what is that? Also, if I remember right, there are a few tactics I can use where I really shouldn't have to worry about the shooting phase, such as teleporting half an army on top of them in a newly created forest should do wonders.

**Tangent**

Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Steadfast, out of curiosity, what is that?

I'll try to answer this question thoroughly, though keep in mind that I don't know how much you know about Fantasy and so I apologize if I tell you things that you already know.

Short answer: Steadfast is a rule that helps keep your troops in the fight after having lost combat to an enemy unit if your model count is higher than the enemy unit's.

Long answer: Steadfast is dependent upon ranks. Lets say you have a unit of 20 models, which equates to 4 total ranks of 5 models each, fighting a unit of 30 models, which equates to 6 total ranks of 5 models each. Your unit has 4 ranks and the enemy unit has 6 ranks.

In combat, your unit does 5 wounds, while the enemy unit does 2 wounds. You win combat by 3!

The loser must take a leadership test to prevent the unit from fleeing. If this test is passed, the unit stays in combat which will continue next turn (just like 40k). If failed, the unit will run and may be pursued, cut down by the enemy, and destroyed. This leadership test is modified by the amount that the unit lost combat. So, in this example, the leadership test would be at -3.

However, this is where Steadfast comes in. Steadfast says that if you lose combat and must take a leadership test to prevent fleeing, this test is made at the unit's unmodified leadership value - if you are Steadfast, your leadership is not modified by the combat result. A unit is Steadfast if it has more ranks than the enemy unit it is facing in combat.

In our example, the enemy did 2 wounds which brings your total model count down to 18. This gives you 3 ranks, beecause a rank must be made up of 5 models. Your unit did 5 wounds, bringing the enemy unit's model count down to 25. This gives them 5 ranks. So, despite the fact that they lost combat by 3, they will be taking their leadership test at the unmodified value because they have more ranks than you and are, therefore, Steadfast.

When people talk of "breaking Steadfast" they're referring to various tactics to remove Steadfast from enemy units, like fielding larger blocks of models or using flank or rear charges to remove this quality.

Sorry if this was long - hope it helps. This is why Matt is talking about Steadfast being a big problem. Essentially, if you don't bring enough killing power to slaughter enemy units with your attacks alone, then the only other way that you can kill them is to beat them, break them, and run them down. Without a way to break Steadfast, this is extremely difficult to do, especially considering a Battle Standard Bearer lets you reroll failed leadership tests, and almost every army takes one.

**Unyielding Hunger**

Tangent wrote:
Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Steadfast, out of curiosity, what is that?

I'll try to answer this question thoroughly, though keep in mind that I don't know how much you know about Fantasy and so I apologize if I tell you things that you already know.

Short answer: Steadfast is a rule that helps keep your troops in the fight after having lost combat to an enemy unit if your model count is higher than the enemy unit's.

Long answer: Steadfast is dependent upon ranks. Lets say you have a unit of 20 models, which equates to 4 total ranks of 5 models each, fighting a unit of 30 models, which equates to 6 total ranks of 5 models each. Your unit has 4 ranks and the enemy unit has 6 ranks.

In combat, your unit does 5 wounds, while the enemy unit does 2 wounds. You win combat by 3!

The loser must take a leadership test to prevent the unit from fleeing. If this test is passed, the unit stays in combat which will continue next turn (just like 40k). If failed, the unit will run and may be pursued, cut down by the enemy, and destroyed. This leadership test is modified by the amount that the unit lost combat. So, in this example, the leadership test would be at -3.

However, this is where Steadfast comes in. Steadfast says that if you lose combat and must take a leadership test to prevent fleeing, this test is made at the unit's unmodified leadership value - if you are Steadfast, your leadership is not modified by the combat result. A unit is Steadfast if it has more ranks than the enemy unit it is facing in combat.

In our example, the enemy did 2 wounds which brings your total model count down to 18. This gives you 3 ranks, beecause a rank must be made up of 5 models. Your unit did 5 wounds, bringing the enemy unit's model count down to 25. This gives them 5 ranks. So, despite the fact that they lost combat by 3, they will be taking their leadership test at the unmodified value because they have more ranks than you and are, therefore, Steadfast.

When people talk of "breaking Steadfast" they're referring to various tactics to remove Steadfast from enemy units, like fielding larger blocks of models or using flank or rear charges to remove this quality.

Sorry if this was long - hope it helps. This is why Matt is talking about Steadfast being a big problem. Essentially, if you don't bring enough killing power to slaughter enemy units with your attacks alone, then the only other way that you can kill them is to beat them, break them, and run them down. Without a way to break Steadfast, this is extremely difficult to do, especially considering a Battle Standard Bearer lets you reroll failed leadership tests, and almost every army takes one.

So, basically, if I want to win with this kind of an army, I always need to ensure that I hit from the rear or sides.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I might change things up in the tactics list. I understand that glamourweave units have the forest spirit rune, so what would happen if I grabbed a couple glamourweave casters, and just buried them in the back and used those to boost my magical might? That way, my major units are still the dryads, treekin, and treemen, while still maintaining enough magical might to take down some of these horde armies with Dweller Below and using Regrowth and Flesh to Stone to massively buff my units for close combat.

**Sigvatr**

Nope, since skirmish units have 0 ranks in 8th, you cannot break Steadfast by flanking. So yes, you would have to flank / attack at rear to even get a reliable chance to win, considering you face a static combat resolution disadvantage of 2-3.

**Tangent**

Unyielding Hunger wrote:

So, basically, if I want to win with this kind of an army, I always need to ensure that I hit from the rear or sides.

Actually, I just looked it up in the rulebook, and I was wrong. Flank and Rear charges do NOT break Steadfast - the only thing that does is having more ranks than the enemy unit you're fighting. Skirmishers have zero ranks, so they're particularly bad at breaking Steadfast. You can still have fast flanking units that are large enough to break it, though.

**Niiai**

You forest spirit units cost more then other peple units and are worse. That goes for every unit in the wood elves book.

The only real advantage wood elves have is to do multiple smaler units and anoy the hell out of death star armies. This is something they do very well, but the games are more about hide and seek then magicla battles.

**Unyielding Hunger**

Well then, it seems I might as well wait until the new Wood Elves Codex comes out for this edition before I get into fantasy, if at all now.

**Tangent**

And you definitely wouldn't be the first person to feel that same sentiment. I feel your pain, man - Wood Elves were my first Warhammer love, way back in something like 1996. Just 3 weeks ago I traded off all of the models that I still had, which was actually quite a few (surprisingly).

I think the Wood Elf book is the oldest book in Fantasy right now. Brittonia is the other contender for oldest book, and I don't know which is older. Needless-to-say, the WE book was written during an edition in which the rules were much different. Fantasy is in 8th edition now, and I think the Wood Elf book was written in 6th edition.

**Niiai**

If you are new to fantasy I would recomend ogers. They are quite good, lov model count, easy to paint and funn to play. Relativaly few hard matchups and a good learning curve. also, offers great modelling options.

Alternative you could do a count as vampier counts army. Use druids/necromancers to summon up / animate dead threes. There are some good upertunaties for nice count as models in the special monsterus infantery department. You can state that it was a wood elf that god turned into a vampier lord and ran into exile and now he is back. While I do not know of a good way to implement blood knights or gravguards as count as models, I do think the rest should be convertable.

**Tangent**

And, as usual, elf models represent vampires really well. I'm actually using a Wood Elf Spellsinger model for my Vampire Lord.

**Niiai**

I always thought the dragon knights(?) would make good blood knights.

Dyrads could make exelent skelletons. Maybe ghouls if you fancy, as long as you let your oponnent know.

**Tangent**

Oh yeah, definitely

**Tookyflakes**

Dryads are on a 25mm base arent they? Where as skeletons and zombies are 20mm. However I will say i play a treespirit army for the most part and I win about 95% of my games with them. You just have to keep elves in front of treekin to shield them from fire attacks till you can charge or get charged. Then since dryads are stubborn in forest's. Most players know woodelves are useless and will work with you on having some terrain placed on the battle field for you to work with, if not... well dryads are still fairly decent.

**Tangent**

I'm not sure what size bases Dryads are on, actually. I thought it was 25mm.