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While I was mentally brainstorming over my Chapter's fluff, a wild doubt appeared!
Ok, so just how much information do the Unforgiven Chapters have regarding the Betrayal, the Fallen and the DA's past overall? Do they know about Luther? We know that there are some successors who are dedicated to hunting Cypher, but from it's a big stretch to go from Cypher to Luther.

So... what are the "information tiers", so to say?

We all know Azrael, being Supreme Grand Master, is the one who knows the most. Who comes next? Ezekiel and Asmodai, along with the Unforgiven Chapters Masters?
Or do Asmodai and Ezekiel know more than even the other Chapter Masters? If yes, just how much would the latter know? Perhaps as much as the DA's Company Masters?

Don your tinfoil hats, Dakkaites and hear my call to conspiracy!

AFAIK the Unforgiven chapters may not know about Luther specifically but that's not the real question. There are fallen members of many chapters -- what makes the DA special is that their Fallen fell during the HH. So we should ask rather if the Unforgiven know that much about the Fallen. To me, it seems reasonable that high ranking members of the Unforgiven chapters do know this as the whole reason its so shameful is that it casts the First Legion in the light of treachery at the crucial moment.

As for conspiracy theory: The secrecy and shame DA treat the subject with is the best (if only) evidence that there is some truth to Astelan's confession. Also, the Unforgiven do not share everything with each other even apart from knowledge about the First Legion. The Angels of Absolution, for example, consider themselves Forgiven but won't tell anyone else why.

IIRC, only the Deathwing are privy to the Fallen's existance. The rest of the chapter is kept in the dark. They know of an ancient shame, but not of its true nature.

Each Unforgiven chapter maintains a Deathwing. OP's question is to what extent to the successors know about the history of the Fallen.

Only the Deathwing, and I believe the information is more or less universal within the Deathwing. Successor chapter or not.

Chapter Masters, Captains, Chief Librarians, and Interrogator-Chaplains in the Unforgiven chapters all know most everything, the Deathwing are the only ones allowed to know about the schism in general.

The Deathwing is not a cross-Chapter brotherhood. The "Deathwings" of the Dark Angels successors are distinct entities within in their distinct chapters. So as OP points out, just because they have similar structures doesn't mean they share info. As I mentioned, the Angels of Absolution won't tell the others why they consider themselves absolved. It stands to reason that only Azrael knows the true fate of the Lion and has not shared that with the Grand Masters of the successor chapters. After all, the DA themselves are characterized by successive rungs of illumination -- what OP calls "need-to-know tiers."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Chapter Masters, Captains, Chief Librarians, and Interrogator-Chaplains in the Unforgiven chapters all know most everything, the Deathwing are the only ones allowed to know about the schism in general.

Source?

You do know all the DA successors have a big get together every 100 years. I believe its to share information on the Fallen.


And the DA successors are that only in name. In reality, Azrael is supreme grand master of the Dark Angel Legion.

 Manchu wrote:
So as OP points out, just because they have similar structures doesn't mean they share info. As I mentioned, the Angels of Absolution won't tell the others why they consider themselves absolved. It stands to reason that only Azrael knows the true fate of the Lion and has not shared that with the Grand Masters of the successor chapters.

This is exactly what I am asking about. I am just curious as to what the Dakkaites think would be the members of each tier. and, of course, if there are clues and hints in other, older 'dexes and novels that you know of ( I haven't read everything).

So, for example, I'd say the top five rings of enlightenment (picking up on Machu's wording) would be:

- Azrael
- Ezekiel and Asmodai
- Unforgiven Chapter Masters and DA Company Masters,Librarians and Interrogator Chaplains
- Unforgiven Company Masters, Librarians, Interrogator Chaplains and DA Deathwing/Ravenwing
- Unforgiven Deathwing/Ravenwing

This brings up a new question - is there any difference in what the DW/RW members know?




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 Grey Templar wrote:
And the DA successors are that only in name. In reality, Azrael is supreme grand master of the Dark Angel Legion.

This is exactly why I'm asking this. If the DA and their successors are still a Legion in everything but name, there should be a set hierarchy to it all... I think.

The DA are NOT still a legion. The Grand Masters of the successor chapters are not Azrael's subordinates. For the third time ITT, the Angels of Ansolution won't tell the others (including the DA) why the consider themselves forgiven. At the same time, they still work with the others to hunt down the Fallen. The issue here is that the Unforgiven share a common cultural heritage. They are all hunting the Fallen as a matter of their own highest priority. The DA successors do not hunt the Fallen because Azrael orders them to. And, yes, the Grand Masters have been known to hold meetings at the Rock. Unless someone has a transcipt of the meeting, that doesn't answer the question of whether the successor grand masters know about Luther much less Jonson -- or, for that matter, what the Watchers in the Dark are.

They in fact are, all Grand Masters of DA successor chapters are members of the Inner Circle, the council of DA members that know about the Fallen. And the Supreme Grand Master of that Inner Circle is Azreal, all successor Grand Masters have still sworn fealty to Azreal.

It's clearly a feudal models of rights and obligations rather than a corporate model of top-down management. Otherwise, we'd know about the Angels of Absolution.

 Yojiro wrote:

This brings up a new question - is there any difference in what the DW/RW members know?

Unfortunately I forget where I read it but the description was that the DW know that the Fallen are traitors to the DA and must be hunted and handed over to the Interrogator-Chaplains but the RW only knows "see those guys in black armour with DA markings, catch them"

The Angels of Absolution have split from the DAs as a whole and such are an exception.

They no longer swear fealty to the Supreme Grand Master.


The other chapters are still seperate from the DAs in only name. In practice, the DAs are still a Legion. Albiet they arn't openly acting together.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They no longer swear fealty to the Supreme Grand Master.

Source? Siege of Vraks has Azrael sending them in to nab an Alpha Legion lord.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
In practice, the DAs are still a Legion.

I think that is your spin on it rather than anything "canon."

 Manchu wrote:
The DA are NOT still a legion. The Grand Masters of the successor chapters are not Azrael's subordinates. .

"Azrael sits at the head of the Inner Circle, master even over the Grand Masters of the Dark Angel's Successor Chapters."

Dark Angels 4e, pg. 46

Fifth time: Angels of Absolution refuse to give up their secret.

 Manchu wrote:
Sixth time: Angels of Absolution refuse to give up their secret.

Source?

And, at the very least, Azrael wields enough influence that a request from him to a successor chapter isn't likely to be denied, a la Calgar.

Obviously the Angels of Absolution are an exception to the general fact that DA successors are beholden to the Supreme Grand Master.

 FinalAnswer wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Sixth time: Angels of Absolution refuse to give up their secret.

Source?

Will look it up when I get home from work. You seem to have the dex handy, should be able to find it easily enough.

 FinalAnswer wrote:
And, at the very least, Azrael wields enough influence that a request from him to a successor chapter isn't likely to be denied, a la Calgar.

Which has nothing to do with them still being a Legion.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Obviously the Angels of Absolution are an exception to the general fact that DA successors are beholden to the Supreme Grand Master.

Well, no. They are still beholden to him (see Siege of Vraks). But what their example seems to show is that there are limits to Azrael's authority regarding the successor chapters.

 Manchu wrote:
Fifth time: Angels of Absolution refuse to give up their secret.

Have they been ordered to by the Supreme Grand High Poobah? And even in that case, nothing makes for good drama like someone refusing an order from a superior and saying "Trust me." when asked about it.

The central feature of DA and successor culture is atoning for the fall of their erstwhile brothers. The fact that one successor claims to be forgiven is kind of a big deal. The claim alone is evidence of autonomy.

 Manchu wrote:
The central feature of DA and successor culture is atoning for the fall of their erstwhile brothers. The fact that one successor claims to be forgiven is kind of a big deal. The claim alone is evidence of autonomy.

Only on the part of the Angels of Absolution.


And really, is it surprising that a rogue faction of a faction that likes keeping secrets might keep a secret from the rest of them?

 Grey Templar wrote:
And really, is it surprising that a rogue faction of a faction that likes keeping secrets might keep a secret from the rest of them?

Whether it's surprising or not is irrelevant. The issue is merely that it is possible.

Indeed, but it doesn't disprove that the DAs and their Successors really havn't split apart the Legion, especially when there is evidence to support it.

This breakaway faction just shows that there is some discord around.

And they can still follow the word of the Supreme GM, they just don't share that one particular gem.

There is no evidence to support that the DA are still a Legion. They cooperate more formerly than other chapters, is all. The issue is that their shared heritage is not just a matter of the past, as with other chapters' relationship to their porgenitor Legion, but a matter of ongoing urgency. In order to hunt down the Fallen, the cooperate under the leadership of the DA Supreme Grand Master -- but the example of the Angels of Absolution shows that they can be autonomous in other areas, even areas related to that very issue.

Some Evidence. Lets see,

Azrael: Supreme Grand Master of all DA successor chapters(meaning he is the Chapter Master of all Chapters simultaniously)

All successors have a big powwow at the rock periodically.

All successors maintain the Deathwing.


Thats plenty of evidence that they didn't split.

In GW fluff, circumstantial evidence is perfectly acceptable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Azrael: Supreme Grand Master of all DA successor chapters(meaning he is the Chapter Master of all Chapters simultaniously)

What it means is that he leads meetings of the Unforgiven Inner Circle and manages the hunt for the Fallen. It doesn't necessarily mean he is the C-in-C of all DA successor chapters a la the Lion.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All successors have a big powwow at the rock periodically.

IF, UM, and BA do the same.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All successors maintain the Deathwing.

This isn't a Legion-era structure. It's like saying all BA successors having Snaguinary Priests makes them a Legion.